Installing WIN 3.1

May this ignorant one ask a question please?
I have been given an old computer that originally had WIN 2000. The operating system has been uninstalled (not by me!) and I want to install WIN 3.1.  I have got UBUNTU running on it so I guess the computer is okay. But without Windows I am in the dark! Any idea how to get it to accept WIN 3.1 please?    I have the WIN 3.1 install Disks, but although I have the computer set to boot from a: drive first it just ignores disk 1. I have installed XP on other machines and back in the mists of time installed WIN 95 and 98, can't remember how though! (Too much Anno .Domini.)
Please make any explanation simple to match the mind of the enquirer! 
Thanks for any help.

Just to add, I have succeeded in getting into the blue Setup Screen. But then I get a box telling me "Setup is unable to create the specified directory on the specified drive. Press ENTER to type a different path and continue Setup" Pressing ENTER shows the path as C:\WINDOWS. Okay, I admit I am lost! any suggestions please?

Peering through the mists of time I see that you need to have MS-DOS (at least version 3.1 but 5 or 6.22 are better) to be installed before you can use the Windows 3.1 install set. You say you got Ubuntu running - was this from a live CD or did you actually install it on the hard drive?

Hi Salmon Trout,
I installed UBUNTU from the CD to the hard drive. It works okay as far as I can tell.
Thanks for that info. I will download one of the ms-dos disks and give it a try.

Hi Salmon Trout,
I installed UBUNTU from the CD to the hard drive. It works okay as far as I can tell.
Thanks for that info. I will download one of the ms-dos disks and give it a try.

1. MS-DOS is 3 disks.
2. Downloading them from the web is piracy.

That's confused me Salmon Trout! (Quite easy to do) I down loaded a ms dos boot disk from the link below, what are the three disk you mention please? Is the one I downloaded piracy? If so I will destroy it.
Would not the computer already have ms dos on it, I ask from ignorance?

http://www.bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm

The MS-DOS boot disks you can download are just  disks to start the computer. I think you are OK to keep yours. The full MS-DOS install set is 3 disks. MS-DOS is Microsoft copyright just like all versions of Windows.

Would not the computer already have ms dos on it, I ask from ignorance?

Computers are not born with MS-DOS on them! It will not be installed, especially if you already installed Linux.

Thank you Salmon Trout, I am now learning!
I have seen the below, what do you think of that, worth trying?
http://www.freedos.org/freedos/files/

A bootdisk contains a extremely base "install" of MS-DOS.

the three disk set contains of course the installer, which guies you through installing MS-DOS, as well as the appropriate external commands (FIND,MORE,XCOPY, etc), included programs (EDIT,QBASIC) and utilities (Doublespace/memmaker,format, diskcopy,comp,fdisk, recover, subst, join, etc...) and online help documentation.

a bootdisk generally consists of simply MSDOS.SYS and IO.SYS (or IBMDOS.COM and IBMBIOS.COM, or something similar in the PC-DOS variant), command.com, and very limited set of diagnostic tools.

You can find the <full> DOS setup disks on ebay, I'm sure.

Your original problem comes from the design of Windows 3.x as well as the requirement ST mentioned- MS-DOS or PC-DOS must be installed first- Windows 3.1 setup cannot create/delete or format partitions like newer versions of windows do, it's more a windowed desktop environment, rather then an OS.

downloading a simple boot disk for MS-DOS is in and of itself not piracy, to my understanding. downloading the full disk set from somewhere would be.

I would recommend trying to find a set on ebay. if you're lucky you might even find a boxed copy that includes the manual, which can be especially helpful.

Would not the computer already have ms dos on it, I ask from ignorance?

This is actually caused by confusion between MS-DOS, and operating system that is installed to disk, and the System BIOS, which is in the system ROM. further confusion is caused by older texts on the subject, which erroneously state  that "part of MS-DOS is in your ROM chip, which loads the rest of itself from disk" which is only true for a few ancient PC clones, like the Tandy, which ran their own specially modified version of DOS for no reason whatsoever. the ROM contains the BIOS, which does contain instructions to look on the disk for further code to execute, but it doesn't contain any DOS-specific code- the same MBR reading instructions are used regardless of the operating system.

This topic is confused further by the even worse assumption by many and the proliferation of the information that "DOS is as close to the system as you can get", many so-called tutorials you can find on the web, and even printed books will tell you "DOS is like talking to your computer through primeval grunts and gutteral noises" or some effective metaphor. DOS is in fact a rather good abstraction- instead of having to send, say, machine code instructions directly to the computer (which would probably wear out your 1 and 0 keys, assuming the computer gives you the luxury of translating those two keys into actual bits), you can enter commands that are parsed and performed.

This wouldn't be that bit of an issue, simply a misconception. but the misconception and the fact that it is referred to as "the lowest level" can make people uneasy, or, as in this case, cause a belief that it's some sort of "built-in" operating system.

Thank you Salmon Trout, I am now learning!
I have seen the below, what do you think of that, worth trying?
http://www.freedos.org/freedos/files/

Don't have any experience with that myself, but I don't believe (based on a quick google) that FreeDOS can run windows 3.1.

Thanks BC_Programmer, that was a helpful explanation.
Looks like a search on EBay then.

[Moderator]

Try a local University Bookstore...
If you are a Student there's a good discount involved...

If you are a Student there's a good discount involved...

and if you're not a student, halloween is coming early this year!

Student of human nature maybe. I think I am a bit too long in the tooth to even be a "Mature Student", in my case it would not be mature, but over ripe!

The difficulty is that although it is trivially easy to find floppy image sets for MS-DOS and early Windows OSs for download, and many people do get them, this forum has a policy of not helping or advising in matters of "piracy" or encouraging people to breach copyright. So, irrespective of our own personal feelings, (or lack of them) about this topic, we cannot tell you here how to do this. If only there was some way of searching the web, maybe by typing words into a box which might bring up desired pages.

Ah Salmon Trout, if only!
With motorcycles I find earlier models easier to work on. Computers seem to reverse that principle?

Ah Salmon Trout, if only!

Whoever invented such a thing would make me "Goggle" with amazement.

With motorcycles I find earlier models easier to work on. Computers seem to reverse that principle?

Like my 1946 BSA M21 (side valve single) that ran for miles with a piston that was split in 2 and held together by the rings, as I discovered when I dismantled it.

Like my 1946 BSA M21 (side valve single) that ran for miles with a piston that was split in 2 and held together by the rings, as I discovered when I dismantled it.



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Very nice Salmon Trout. Mine is a much simpler BSA Bantam D14.
Though when I win the lotto I will again have a P&M Panther 120S one of which I once owned and long for again!

My first bike was a 1954 D1 Bantam with plungers. I later worked at a dealer's (Fowler's Of Bristol) just in time to see the demise of BSA-Triumph (they were still making B175s at the time) My mate got a Panther for £10, a 600 single (I think that was the 100) that came with a Busmar double-adult "chair" (sidecar) that he took off and rode the bike solo. This got a bit hairy on the corners because on a sidecar outfit the bike never leans (hopefully!) so the tyres wear flat (like a car's). In fact I think it probably had special sidecar outfit tyres, and I daresay the frame was none too straight, but what a lot of fun we had. You had a lever on the handlebar that worked a "decompressor" valve in the cylinder head so you could turn it over to the right stroke before starting and another lever to advance the ignition so it didn't kick back and send you flying...

Is your D14 a 3-speed or 4-speed?

P&M Panther

From memory... Phelon & Moore?

My D14 Bantam is 4 speed with points and coil ignition. Swing Arm rear end.
Yes Phelon & Moore is correct as is the 100 being 600cc.
Mine was also attached to a D/A sidecar, but I got it well lined up and it handled fine. Then I am prejudiced, I like outfits! The Panther also had a "half compression lever" on the right side of the crankcase. Lift that and the bike cannot kick back. Forget it and you could soon be airborne! I used to use sidecar tread tyres on it which have a much flatter tread than normal bike tryes.
I have only been to Fowlers once, about 12yrs ago, for some Yamaha XV parts.

Problem solved. I have been given a computer running WIN 3.1.