Boat anchor

I know you're going to tell me my hard drive just died of old age, but I'm hoping for a miracle that will let me get it up and running long enough to get the data off it onto flash drives.  Why flash drives?  Because my *#&@* HP CD burner I've been using faithfully for years copied folder names onto my many backup CDs, but very few of them actually contain files.  I hate HP.

Here's what I have:  a 1998 desktop assembled locally at a geek shop, running Win98SE.  It has a CD reader, the HP CD burner, a 3.25 floppy drive and a network card to the Linux machine, which I took out yesterday, and a 2-year-old BenQ monitor.  There is also a second hard drive which has no operating system on it.   Five years ago I was swamped with malware, so I bought a Mac to be my internet machine and none of my Windows computers ever went on the net again.  Hundreds of hours later I had most of the malware off the Win98, which I use for drawing, photos, archives, financial records, appointments, contacts, etc.  In short, my real work is all on this machine, and it's been working fine.

Last week I turned it on (yes, I always do a proper shutdown), and not much happened:  power light came on, hard drive light came on and stayed on, power supply fan ran, monitor told me there was no signal.  The reset button worked, it did the same thing.  The power button would not turn it off, so I disconnected the power.  Besides taking out the unused network card, I tried booting in both CD drives, and the floppy drive.  Couldn't even get DOS.  No error messages, nothing except the "no signal."

Can anybody help me figure out where to start troubleshooting?  I'm reading a lot of the stuff on this web site, but nowhere is there the answer to the question "What do I do when I turn it on and nothing happens?"

Looking forward to getting to know you all

Darlene

Hello Darbak, when you say you tried to reboot from the CD, do you mean with the original Windows install CD or do you have a bootable emergency disk?

Im sure you may have tried some of these but no matter, perhaps you might try tapping the F8 key and see if it will go to safe mode.
Take the battery out and wait 10 minutes. Reinsert it and find out any changes.
Turn the computer off and REMOVE the power cord from the machine for a short while. Over 1 minute should do it to allow and power to disperse through capacitors.
Test your result.
Reseat your ram. Test it.

Do you have another computer that you can install the hard drive into?

Hello, Imnoguru;

I tried booting with the original Win98SE CD, and others I knew to be bootable.  I wasn't really expecting that to work, but I was surprised that the DOS floppy failed -- it should start in RAM alone.  DOS would also be the surest way of recovering data.

Re F8 key, that only works if a bootup commences ... I don't even get that.  Power is always disconnected -- after I shut down, I turn off the power bar.  Wouldn't know how to test the result ... or do you mean try to boot and see if anything is different?

I'll do the ram reseat -- I've got it in pieces all over the desk, cleaning connections and crannies.  Nervous about removing the battery ... will that not erase the BIOS or something else I can't re-create?

I do have another Pentium of similar vintage, which I will mess with pretty much as a last resort.  But thinking about it, I might be there already.  There's another hard drive without O/S ... would anything be gained by switching the two? 

Do you have an opinion on the freezing technique?

Thanks for replying.
Darlene

if you disconnect the hard drive, can you get an image on the screen when you boot?

Also try a different graphics card, if possible. (borrow the other pentiums card if it has one).

It seems to me, at this point, that we are looking at a mechanical failure rather than an issue with software.

Power is always disconnected -- after I shut down, I turn off the power bar.  Wouldn't know how to test the result .

I mean REMOVE THE POWER CORD FROM THE BOX.  Ive found in the past that just switching off and walking away, isnt the same as taking the cable out altogether, waiting for a reasonable time for the residual electricity to drain and then reconnecting it and try a boot up.
All I know there is it worked for me.

Darbak, while you have the computer "on the bench" check to see if you have any swelling on the tops of capacitors on the mother board. ( I'll see if I can find a picture for you to compare)


Quote from: Annon on September 08, 2008, 03:09:15 AM
Quote from: Annon on August 30, 2008, 02:52:39 AM
If you can not hear the fans turning, or if your system is hot , you have a problem.

Spontaneous reboots and lock ups are a warning sign. If your system, on occasion, decides to shut down on its own accord, it may be the power supply. A system that freezes up is a sign as well. These are often defensive mechanisms on the part of your motherboard.

Unhook all of your peripherals and try your system. If it works properly, then it might be one of your accessories that may be causing the problem rather than the PSU.
End quote.

Darbak,This is what you may be looking for if you have a problem with capacitors.
Bulging capacitors click here.

Reply to everyone who is trying to help.

Yes, its a mechanical problem -- the fact that the power switch turns it on but not off is pretty good evidence of that.

The cord has been pulled out for a couple of days, because that's the only way I could turn it off after it started failing to boot.

Today I noticed that when it tries to start, it blinks the two CD readers, but not the floppy ... that would account for why my rescue and DOS disks don't accomplish anything.  Tried it with a different monitor, too ... no contact.

I pulled out everything from the power supply down today, cleaned and tightened loose connections.  Reseated the RAM.  Replaced the CMOS battery.

I don't pay attention to goofy behaviors any more -- I've been using computers since 1978, and never encountered one that didn't act up every few days.  It almost never meant imminent trouble.

Tomorrow I'll look for bulging capacitors and other suggestions, and maybe even work up the nerve to try swapping parts with the other machine ... I'm scared I'll be sitting there with TWO dead machines.   

Your help is deeply appreciated.  Stuck out here in the boonies means I don't have handy expert down the block.  Thanks a lot.

Darbak

Have you tried to remove the hard drive from your faulty machine and install it into the working machine?
Did that give you any success with your drive? Did boot up and you can recover any data you need?
If so then the drive itself doesnt seem to be the faulty component.
Also try to remove your A: drive and install that into your working computer test its operation.

Besides taking out the unused network card

Try to reinstall this card and bring it back to its original position before the failure.
Test that result.

Darbak, do you get any beeps when you turn on the power?
Does the screen come up with any error messages before the boot, such as no input connection or other?

Yes, its a mechanical problem -- the fact that the power switch turns it on but not off is pretty good evidence of that.

what about holding the button?

Sorry for not answering people individually -- I still have a farm to run and a broken foot, so there isn't as much time as I'd like for playing with my toys.

Didn't touch it today -- roofer was here.  No beeps when it tries to boot.   The network card has never been in use -- it was just there in case I wanted the Win machine to talk to Linux box.   I noticed strange goings-on when it went in, and always meant to remove it anyway, but I'll put it back if you think it might make a difference in something.

I have not been experiencing freezeups or unrequested reboots.  The only odd thing that stands out in my memory was when I'd do a cold boot and open a text file, it would take forever for the file to get working.  It would appear, but you couldn't do anything in it for maybe 1.5 - 2 minutes ... this was consistent and I got used to it.

On the new BenQ monitor it's smart enough to realize something is trying to happen and blink a "NO SIGNAL" message.   The old Samsung just stays black.

I remain seriously concerned about just swapping parts between two different makes ... maybe I'll raid the Linux box instead because I don't use it much anyway. 

Power switch ... tried holding the button for 10 sec or so.  Would longer help?


THanks again!  With all this help we ought to be able to make some kind of progress.

Darback

Ouch.. A broken foot isnt any fun. I hope its not too long before your on the mend.

   I noticed strange goings-on when it went in, and always meant to remove it anyway, but I'll put it back if you think it might make a difference in something.

What kind of strange goings on?
Running slower? Booting up slower?

I believe that it is best to get it, to, as original a condition before the problem, and test each item in sequence.

I remain seriously concerned about just swapping parts between two different makes

One was a Mac wasnt it? I dont think they are interchangeable. ( I dont know much about Macs )   Sorry.

Hi ImnoGuru

The network cards went in 2 or 3 years ago when I got the Linux, thinking I wanted to learn Linux for internet.  I don't recall much, as my brain is even more ancient than my hardware, but I think that's when the slow-starting text files began.  May have been other stuff, but the Win kept running so I didn't make any drastic measures.  At the time it was bad enough that I was scaring myself half to death with the extreme things I was doing to clear out the malware.  I scare easy.

No, the Mac is what I bought for internet, and it's been dandy, but I'm still more productive in Windows because that's what I'm used to.  The dead machine is a geek-shop assembly, the other I might swap things with is an eMachine brand ... very proprietary stuff in there.  Couldn't even do my banking on line with it because it had a "virtual modem" and couldn't transfer wave files because they wouldn't play without the eMachine hardware.  Another choice would be the Linux box, which was a baby geek learner project. 

If I unplugged the two hard drives, would it default to the floppy and at least let me launch DOS?  Could I change the BIOS to include A: in the boot sequence and then plug the hard drives back in?   

Have a great weekend.  The foot is an inconvenience, especially since I broke it last summer.  Healed well, then I got busy trying to catch up with stuff and broke it again, but worse this time.  Sigh. 

Darbak

Aside:  I have never had a straightforward computer problem -- mostly I've been able to fix things myself.  The worst was when I got a machine that made random, irreproducible errors of all kinds.  Half a dozen experts decided I was too stupid to own a computer, until I stumbled on a geek god who (in five minutes) determined that the hard drive had 1008 sectors and the BIOS thought it had 1024 ... since system data is stored at the end of the drive, every once in a while a system datum would be filed away in a non-existent sector. 

Boat anchor?
Yes!
Let's cut to the chase.
Buy a refurbished PC with a warranty. It comes with mobo, case, PSU, memory, CPU, fan DVD/CD-R/W and a decent hard drive. And a floppy. And an OS.
You just add monitor, keyboard and mouse.

What is your time worth? Do you pay yourself minimum wage.
It will take you over 12 hours to fix that Boat anchor.
The Refurbished PC can be had for under $90.

Hi Geek-9pm

Thanks for your kind thoughts and enthusiastic assistance, but I have several more computers and half a dozen O/S's scattered about.  The object of the exercise is to recover the data, since it turns out my CD burner has been leaving gaps over the years.  My time is worth nothing -- I haven't had to work for years. 

Darbak

I agree with Geek-9pm, time is money. I know exactly where he is coming from.
I done it too. Spent a lot of time trying to work out why it broke and how can I fix it.
Its a very logical option to get another box for minimum cost and swap drives.


However I have been in the situation too, that once I started the frustration just grew and grew and all logic went out the window, and I was determined not to let a mechanical box get the better of me.   

Hi ImnoGuru

I totally get time = money, but I have more time than money.  I just want my data.  I don't think I need a new box, just a way to get it's other hard drive bootable.  I have a network card that connects to the Linux box, so I'll try to see if I can coax it into responding to the Linux, and hopefully run a few DOS operations remotely.  By the way, the power button is working properly again, so all that cleaning must have done something.  But it still won't boot, and still won't look at the floppy drive.

Still, I want to save the machine if I can.  I'm so used to it that I can do more faster than on any other.  It makes the laser printer sing and dance like none of the others can.   The system evolved over the years to undo interferences between programs, snip out messes in the registry, and I still have a few items of old email that I wanted to save, but after I upgraded from Win95  to Win98, they couldn't be opened any more.   No program has ever, not ever, not even once, done what it had promised to do when I bought it, and I've learned to get along with what was do-able.  I really don't want to go through all that again.

D
 

I can see what you mean by that too.(I just want my data.) 

Have you tried to remove the connections from the drive yet, and boot, F2 or Del to get into the BIOS.
You might be able to reset the Bios to boot from A:, (if A: actually works) or replace A: with another that does work.
Can you add you damaged computers drive to the Linux as a slave? You can change the jumpers on the drive to make it the slave.

Have you tried removing cables from the Mobo and replace them with different ones?

Swap the battery for a new battery on the Mother Board, from memory they are a CR-2032, 3 volt flat disc battery.
Actually here is one that I had, was faulty. The encrustation on the edge made a bad contact. I scraped off the residue and cleaned the mother board with a nail file tip and it worked.... Needless to say it has since been replaced.

Your other machines, do they have a CD Drive in them that might be used... (even if its not a burner, you just want one that works at this stage.)
Well lets see where all that takes us Darbak.

Good Luck.

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Yes, I've tried disconnecting one thing at a time, and all but one at a time ... no joy.  Tried the keypresses from the Norton Utilities book, which didn't included DEL ... I'll try that.

Drive A might or might not work -- the light doesn't blink.  Could mean the light is dead, or the drive is dead, or the CMOS (?) isn't calling it.  I think a floppy drive is simple enough that I could swap it out, which is on the list of things to try.  Pretty sure swapping hard drives is more complicated and the potential for damage is greater.  I disconnected both hard drives hoping it would default to the floppy, didn't.

Changing jumpers to slave the computer to the Linux is beyond my technical skills.  I can check other boxes to see if the wiring is similar enough to use.  I have a crossover cable to connect the two network cards, but I've never had need to use it so I don't know how.  Sent a not to a Linux expert to see if it's feasible and maybe get instructions.

I did change the battery a couple of days ago, which made no difference.  I'm getting more and more sure the hard drive is stuck -- on a normal boot it blinks and runs, blinks and runs.  Now it's on steady, and I can feel the drive buzzing.  Maybe I'll try the freezer trick. 

Even if I get nowhere, there are data recovery experts I can pay to work this out.  My philosophy is to never pay anybody to fix anything until I've given my best effort to fix it myself.  That saves me money about half the time -- I know the guts of my washer and dryer really well now, and once I found myself with two dead trucks.  With a little help, I got one transfer case rebuilt and two new gears in the other, and they both worked fine for years.  It's just so *censored* much fun!  Toaster ovens, clocks, yadda yadda.


Darbak

Yep sounds like a real farmer to me..

When I was on the land in the upper part of Australia, and there are no people for a few Klms and town is a 30 minute drive, you get these times that you just want to fix it.

I like that philosophy, basically, it boils down to,
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it is broke, fix it as cheaply as possible"


For ones investment of Time they get extra money. seems like a fair trade to me.

I knew you'd get it.  The other thing is that there is more and more lying these days about competence.  I had a guy sit and stare at my furnace for half an hour, without even touching it, and decided I needed a new gas valve ($300).  I was moaning about this to my Dad, who said to go to a hardware and buy a little $4 doohickus which was easy to install myself.  It worked, but I had to pay the moron anyway because that's the law in this country. 

I had a hired man last year helping me with doors -- he didn't know how to use tools and broke the door jamb -- snapped off a triangle three feet long.  Fired him, fixed the jamb, and carried on.  But I still had to pay him.

Anyway, whenever something goes out of my hands, especially something that matters (like MY DATA), I worry that it's going to a moron who is using it as a learner project.  You only have to know a half dozen specialist terms to convince a customer you're an expert.  Then they say the total failure is your fault for having fiddled with it instead of bringing it in right away.  You just never know.   But you still have to pay. 

Darbak

a mechanical box

Restoring a box is easy!
Just buy a similar used system that is working...

......and swap out the case!     

I knew you'd get it.  The other thing is that there is more and more lying these days about competence.  I had a guy sit and stare at my furnace for half an hour, without even touching it, and decided I needed a new gas valve ($300).  I was moaning about this to my Dad, who said to go to a hardware and buy a little $4 doohickus which was easy to install myself.  It worked, but I had to pay the moron anyway because that's the law in this country. 

I had a hired man last year helping me with doors -- he didn't know how to use tools and broke the door jamb -- snapped off a triangle three feet long.  Fired him, fixed the jamb, and carried on.  But I still had to pay him.

Anyway, whenever something goes out of my hands, especially something that matters (like MY DATA), I worry that it's going to a moron who is using it as a learner project.  You only have to know a half dozen specialist terms to convince a customer you're an expert.  Then they say the total failure is your fault for having fiddled with it instead of bringing it in right away.  You just never know.   But you still have to pay. 

Darbak

This type of deceit happens in almost all industries- the same thing with programming and such.

As an example there was a job listing for a programming position, that stated "must have at least 5 years experience with .NET".

oddly- .NET was released only a year before that. Not sure how somebody can acquire those four years when it didn't exist...


Like you said, they pretty much use big, but generally meaningless words to try to confuse the customer into thinking there is no way they can fix it themselves. And half the time, they simply reformat the PC.

There are some good ones out  there- but it's tough for them to compete with the less honest types, the ones who have no scruples charging for a copy of windows and then installing a pirated copy. (after all, it will be the customer's fault).


Definitely agree with the last part too. The part that is so annoying is the law pretty much rewards incompetence by letting them get paid for doing nothing.

Sorry I haven't been around for a couple of days... It was one of those rare occassions that I had some work to do.   ( Im exhausted.. I think I'll take a few months off now to recover. )

I'm sure we could all talk about the time/s we've been ripped off with these type of situations. It happens time and time again, doesnt it? 

Well back to your situation, I've run out of ideas for the minute.
It's a shame that all this effort has not delivered even the smallest glimmer of improvement.
Maybe if someone else has some ideas they might join in. 

Thanks guys ... well, at least for the parts I could read. 

I'm whacked, too -- spring on the farm is always crazy, and the new hired man has a big job elsewhere coming up so he wants to get as much done around here as he can.  What makes me tired is that I work alongside him -- with a helper, he gets eight hours work done in only four, and gets it done the way I wanted it so I don't have to pay him to try again. 

The boat anchor project I think is pretty much on hold for a while, until (as you say) bright ideas come in from this source or another.  I'll just have to be patient.

Yep a bit of rain and a bit of sun and then comes hours of fun, on the slasher.

Well Darbak.. We tried. 
Maybe someone else might have a look and have a fresh idea for you.

Good Luck. ImnoGuru.