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Author Topic: RF resonant cavity thruster in the news  (Read 3829 times)

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Geek-9pm

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RF resonant cavity thruster in the news
« on: November 25, 2016, 06:08:02 PM »
Here is a good general reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_resonant_cavity_thruster
The article does not say the idea really works. Rather it documents the breif history of the concept.
So Why did I put this here? Well... it is one of f those topics will make you look like a fool. We all know that all rocket motors require a propellant that must be sent out the  rear end to push the motor  forward. Basic universal thinking of every  physicist in his right mind.   :P

Quote
The original design for the EmDrive was by Roger Shawyer; a different RF resonant cavity thruster, called the Cannae Drive, was later designed by Guido Fetta.[

Now here we are in November of 2016 and NASA is saying 'Hey, let's think that over a bit.'  Yeah, somebody made one and it looks like it moved  move a little bit.

Here is how to get the recent stuff about he EMDrive.
NASA EM Drive discovery.

Wait until you rein a good mood and like to be  entertained in a strange way.

The link above gives a variety of sites that claim to understand what NASA nis talking about. Here  is one of the funny ones!
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2016/11/nasa-alert-confirms-startrek-em-drive-propulsion-system-really-does-appear-to-work-to-mars-in-70-days-after-months-of-hea.html
 (|
After months of heated debate and leaked documents, NASA's long-awaited EM Drive paper has finally been peer-reviewed and published. And it shows that the 'impossible' propulsion system appears to work.  Tests carried out by both NASA and independent researchers confirmed that the drive was able to produce thrust in a vacuum that would allow us to reach the moon in just four hours, Mars in 70 days, and Pluto in just 18 months.



The idea was set forth my

Salmon Trout

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Re: RF resonant cavity thruster in the news
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 04:00:04 AM »
As far as I can see, that paper has been reviewed by peers and they have said it does not contain any obvious scientific errors (that's what 'peer-reviewed' means.). Nobody is yet sure whether the drive actually works.

DaveLembke



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Re: RF resonant cavity thruster in the news
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 01:35:02 PM »
Since I was a kid I use to think that the key to propulsion in space would be the Crookes Radiometer, but then I took physics in school and realized that such a method would take a very very long time to get moving depending on how much mass is to be moved and light intensity emitted as a photon propulsion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer

Years ago I read an article on someone trying to prove that a dead battery weighed less than a new battery as if the potential in the battery gone affected its weight in some way. Other stuff seen such as on facebook I had a laugh at because they said something along the lines of a good new AA battery for example will land on its - flat bottom and a dead battery will bounce and fall over. When with everything in nature its trying to normalize/neutralize, and so mass/weight stays the same in a sealed battery. Lead Acid batteries lose H2O as a result of charging in which Hydrogen is given off so any loss of weight is due to that, but sealed batteries dont lose weight when discharged. Lots of fake stuff on youtube to prey on the less educated. One guy was installing a water jug with electrodes to try to run his car on the Hydrogen given off by electrolysis, where your still running on gasoline but its a hydrogen injection to the carburetor or intake on a fuel injected engine. Electricity from the car is used to break H2O into H2 and O, and then sent to combustion chamber to add more power. Problem with this is that it consumes more power to split H2O than would ever be had from burning and rejoining H2 and O. Additionally the power necessary to split the H2O is being created by the alternator of the car, and the draw this process has adds resistance to the engine, so your slightly making your vehicle less fuel efficient. Any changes anyone sees in mileage is likely the cause of them feathering the gas pedal to try to go for best fuel economy, whereas with this system not in the car to split H2O they would have pretty much the same mileage.

At my daughters school 6 years ago they were learning about electricity and I was asked to come in and do a presentation that was safe for the kids and fun. I had one of those hand crank generators that can make like 60 watts of power. I had 2 night light bulbs 4 watts each on a power strip. Power strip off, I had them all feel how it felt with nothing powered and it turned the gearbox inside with dynamo easily. I then flipped on power strip with one night light on and had them feel that, they were able to turn the crank and see the filament inside the 4 watt bulb glow but it took more effort to crank it. Then turned on the next bulb now 8 watts draw and they tried that. They noticed even more mechanical resistance in having to power the lights. They were so excited to see the bulbs filaments glow with each crank. I explained to them that it takes energy to make energy from one form to another as well as there is waste in the conversion. One smart kid asked where is the waste. I said friction is the main waste, but additionally electrical resistance creates waste in creating heat. I said some of you might have worked up a sweat turning that crank and that is wasted energy. Lastly I didnt want to shoot down their dream of being the next tesla and so I said the rules about everything i showed you today are just rules. Some rules are meant to be challenged and bent or broken. If any of you is able to make electricity with less energy required to create the energy in which there is a positive output, and its safe and not protected by a patent by an oil company from implementation, I said you will be the next tesla or thomas edison and would change the world. Following this the teacher gave the kids a project. Think up of ways to make energy in the future and write about it with pictures demonstrating your ideas for a brighter future. I got to see the kids projects at a parent teacher conference and it was really cool. Some wrote stuff already in use and making it better somehow, others had some ideas that defied current laws of physics.

While in college on my electronics degree, I started working on a project that was 3 magnets. One inside a PVC tube loose and 2 others at both ends fixed position so that the N faced the N and S faced the S. Between the magnets between the N & N and S & S were copper coils shaped to try to cut the magnetic field and make the magnets not sense the others opposing field. What I ended up with was a vibrating magnet at the core of the PVC. I wasnt able to cancel out the field to make it act as if the opposing magnet wasnt there, instead when using a piece of glass and metal steel filings in a box i made up to look at the magnetic fields I saw that I was just bending the field and not able to cancel it out to hide the one magnet from the other. The fields bent around the electromagnet and so it was just vibrating from the N/S ( AC power field alternation ) that I was using in the coils to try to find a resonant frequency in which maybe I could mask the core magnet that is free to move from sensing the others fixed magnets fields, but the loose magnet at the core was vibrating to the AC NSNSNSNS field alternation. Even messed with a wave form generator to feed sine, square, and saw tooth waves at it up to 10Mhz in which the audible movement of the loose magnet went away in the 15kHz range. Lower frequency it buzzed and hummed as the coils were tugging and pushing on the loose magnet. More on this here, someone else ran with it as a way to bend to cloak from magnetic fields. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/mar/22/how-to-hide-from-a-magnetic-field

I am content with what is current is what is. There are far smarter people out there with much larger budgets that will find something if something is to be found. I was trying to find a magnetic harmonic resonance that would slice through the fields with cancellation and cause the field to be sliced without bending of the field which causes the magnet to react to a force against it. The entire method was just shooting in the dark to see if I would hit anything ( throwing a dart in a dark room and no idea if a dart board even exists method and waiting for the thunk of success in hitting the target that is hypothetical ), all trial and error hypothetical that maybe I could slice through the magnetic field and find a way for the field to be sliced and not have the magnets respond in physical movement to being sliced. Fact is the fields can be bent, but slicing I havent seen a way to do it without the magnet moving as a result of. In a perfect setup if it was possible, you could flip the coil on and bring 2 strong magnets very close to the coil. Flip the coil off and both repel away from each other. The basis of 2 coils with 1 magnet at center was going to be to have the coils timed to send the free moving magnet at center from side to side or up and down depending on how the PVC tube is mounted. Through masking the fields the thought of using very strong magnets could be used to cause the free magnet at center to provide mechanical linear force as it moves in the tube. Then try to find a way to achieve this where the power required to mask the fields in an alternating way to move the free magnet provide energy output greater than that of the energy required to power it. large magnets able to push away with extreme force create torque and if the torque was able to make electricity greater than that of what is required to drive it, it would then have a feedback loop of powering itself, and use free energy of magnetic propulsion. But I gave up on this because its more like babble of a mad scientist; however science should always be tested vs assumed, so I tested it and gave up on it.


Salmon Trout

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Re: RF resonant cavity thruster in the news
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 01:45:00 PM »
Dave, what you have described is a classic perpetual motion machine...

patio

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Re: RF resonant cavity thruster in the news
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 04:01:33 PM »
Could have easily been already tested in Space by now had the last Administration not killed the Shuttle funding...
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm

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Re: RF resonant cavity thruster in the news
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 07:11:38 PM »
NASA wants to keep the space program going.  They need some way to produce impressive results and keep costs down.
The proposed EM Drive does not violate the laws of physics. But making it cost-effective is a challenge. The quest is for something  powerful, lightweight and low-cost.  Here is a reference that touches on the issues.

Thrust specific fuel consumption