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Author Topic: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.  (Read 4143 times)

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wildbill

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    IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
    « on: June 23, 2016, 02:44:13 PM »
    Hello,
    Sorry if this is the wrong section, I couldn't find anywhere more appropriate.

    I have created a pastebin log of all the relevant chat leading up to my ban.
    http://mibpaste.com/Qkf73Q

    I am not trying to argue the point, if I must remain banned, then I will accept that.
    I do not however believe that I was in the wrong in this case and would like someone to review the log & make a calm decision.


    My Explanation(for anyone who cares and for me to feel an ounce better about being punished for trying to be helpful)

    I had spent about an hour helping guest_42 who later became guest_85 and all of a sudden found myself being targeted with passive-aggressive ridicule of my intellect.
    I admit I didn't take the moderator as seriously as I should have to begin with simply because I had absolutely no idea he was actually being serious nor that he was even a moderator based on his attitude, after I was temporarily banned I proceeded to explain what had transpired prior to his arrival and all be it begrudgingly, answered the vague question I was posed with as much detail as possible, even to the point of querying whether or not I am allowed to have an emotion like surprise.

    After I explained my "wild" assumptions to what I thought was satisfaction to clear the misunderstanding, I instead received more & more tedious questions which bore little relation to the original reason I was copping it, as though it was expected of me to eventually be incorrect and therefore deserve punishment.
    The climax being that the moderator decided one of my answers was wrong and when I confronted him on it with evidence, I received a ban for AFAIK permanently.

    If this is a fair community I hope I can get some resolution and possible justification/apology from this.
    If not, I will gladly accept my ban as it's likely the powers at be don't care for anyone without a rank, and I won't waste my time with communism.

    Sorry for that remark, but it's the blunt truth.

    Thanks for taking the time to consider my quandary,
    I look forward to any replies/bans I may get for expressing my opinion.

    Regards,
    Bill.

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
    « Reply #1 on: June 23, 2016, 04:20:53 PM »
    A moderator should certainly read back through a conversation like that before banning or muting people because they are "making assumptions". The PSU was clearly stated beforehand, a detail that Quantos may have overlooked as it seems that they had just come back from afk. It seems a tad inappropriate to ban/mute somebody and have them explain themselves when the explanation can be found by merely reading a bit further back. And according to that list it is very clearly in Tier 2, and as you said even if it was tier 1- that would make your point for you even further, as you said.

    I think perhaps they might have to deal with a lot of users giving nebulous advice and may as a result be a bit too trigger happy in determining when to ban users. That is the most charitable explanation I can think of. The muting and demanding an explanation just seems mean.




    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    camerongray



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    Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
    « Reply #2 on: June 24, 2016, 10:06:16 AM »
    According to them it worked when the CPU wasn't connected and the GPU smelled burned.  The PSU is by no means a bad unit, to me this sounds like the GPU is shorting out and tripping the power supply's protection.

    This has been an ongoing issue and is why I no longer participate in the chat.

    Don't take it personally, people are constantly banned in the chat for no real reason other than because the OP feels as though they have a tiny bit of power and need to show it.  You were nothing but polite and helpful the entire time. This can be seen in the demands like "answer me" and muting you until "you explain what I want know".  I mean, they're an IRC operator (of a pretty small channel at that), it's ridiculous to act like they are some sort of massive authority.  Ops should exist to prevent trolls and spammers, not just ban people for no reason.
    « Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:17:14 AM by camerongray »

    patio

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    Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
    « Reply #3 on: June 24, 2016, 10:19:57 AM »
    Agreed...
       
     
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    wildbill

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      Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
      « Reply #4 on: June 25, 2016, 04:04:53 AM »
      Thanks for taking the time to reply guys, it helped me feel better getting confirmation that I wasn't taking things the wrong way & that this is apparently normal(which just disappoints me).
      I was banned under similar circumstances about a year ago but didn't bother disputing it, came back for the first time the other night and got banned again which just infuriated me enough to arc up about it.

      ps.
      not sure if I was unbanned yesterday morning or if the dynamic nature of my connection got the chat working again but unless I get confirmation of my appeal I won't bother going back.

      Agreed...

      lol thanks patio, are you agreeing with anyone in particular though?

      I had no idea you were a mod as well lmao.

      WillyW



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      Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
      « Reply #5 on: June 25, 2016, 07:07:41 AM »
      ...
      This has been an ongoing issue and is why I no longer participate in the chat.


      It started years ago.  Sometimes I think nobody cares.  Other times it looks more like they are just too stupid to see the problems and fix them.
      It is probably a combination of both.

      Quote
      ... people are constantly banned in the chat for no real reason other than because the OP feels as though they have a tiny bit of power and need to show it.

      Yep. 
      Typical.

      Quote
      ...
        Ops should exist to prevent trolls and spammers, not just ban people for no reason.

      Exactly.

      And ....   what happens next?
      Either nothing, or the op is tossed out.
      The first actually reinforces and thus encourages this behavior - it spreads.    The second diminishes it.
      Which has happened over the years?   

      It is very sad.


      .



      DaveLembke



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      Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
      « Reply #6 on: June 25, 2016, 07:52:21 AM »
      Just wanted to say that many forums and chats have rules on questioning/calling out mods.

      I questioned a mod in one forum and got banned. The mod got back to me and stated that its not allowed to call out a mod even if they are wrong. If they are wrong at the forum I was at, it was suppose to be dealt with in a private manner private message and not for the world to see basically. So in regards to:
      Quote
      The climax being that the moderator decided one of my answers was wrong and when I confronted him on it with evidence, I received a ban for AFAIK permanently.

      Im not sure of the rules in the chat you were in in calling out a mod on this, but of the majority of forums I have been in and dealt with, its not permitted and not sure if permitted here.

      When i questioned in private message with the mod of the forum I was at why they were so quick to ban me, they pointed out the rule that I broke because "I didnt read the forum rules and so I didnt know this was not allowed", and that when pointing out out a mod as incorrect even if they are incorrect, it brings down the appearance of the site that the people there know what they are talking about.

      In my situation I was correct and they were wrong, but even when they stood corrected, i learned that the rule was not to correct them for the world to see, but in private message in which they would go back in and edit their original post and delete mine stating they were incorrect and here is the link and why etc.

      At first I was upset about it, but when told about why it was that way, I realized that it does make sense to have a clean forum free of corrections that would discredit the sites community IQ etc.

      My ban by the way was temporary. after chatting with them and learning what I did wrong, I knew what was and wasnt allowed and ban lifted.

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
      « Reply #7 on: June 25, 2016, 08:30:02 AM »
      Dave ,any forum or chat with rules like that is hardly worth visiting. Forums like this (No idea about chat but despite issues like this I expect it is pretty much the same) where moderators and helpers correct each other are far more conducive to real help.

      Quote
      when pointing out out a mod as incorrect even if they are incorrect, it brings down the appearance of the site that the people there know what they are talking about.

      I would argue that moderators banning users who point out false information they are providing to others reflects more poorly on a forum or chat than allowing other users to provide the correct information. Forums and chats do not exist to stroke the moderators ego, in this case it exists to provide users with help. Allowing bad information to persist and be shared with users seeking help and banning those who would correct it causes users seeking help to use incorrect information or base further decisions on false information assuming it to be from a reputable source, and also dissuades users who might otherwise be privy to more information or correct information from posting or messaging for fear that they may offend a moderators sensibilities.

      For example, take this forum for example; if a user is seeking help and says "if I format my hard drive will it delete all my data? I want to keep all my data, should I back it up first" and a moderator says (none of them would never say this, of course, this is merely an example!) "No formatting doesn't delete data, don't back-up your drive beforehand" we would ALL happily jump in and correct that particularly since it will severely affect the user; and in cases like that should the moderator in question flip out and ban the user, deleting the post correcting them, or should they say "oh, good catch!" or something to that effect? Which one reflects better on the forum from the user's perspective? The one where corrections are handled through private channels? Well great in the intervening day while it was going through some bureaucratic process, look, the user posted angrily that they just lost all their family photos, but hey, at least the moderator wasn't made to look wrong! That would have been far worse!

      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      wildbill

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        Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
        « Reply #8 on: June 25, 2016, 08:43:26 AM »
        Just wanted to say that many forums and chats have rules on questioning/calling out mods.

        I questioned a mod in one forum and got banned. The mod got back to me and stated that its not allowed to call out a mod even if they are wrong. If they are wrong at the forum I was at, it was suppose to be dealt with in a private manner private message and not for the world to see basically. So in regards to:
        Im not sure of the rules in the chat you were in in calling out a mod on this, but of the majority of forums I have been in and dealt with, its not permitted and not sure if permitted here.

        When i questioned in private message with the mod of the forum I was at why they were so quick to ban me, they pointed out the rule that I broke because "I didnt read the forum rules and so I didnt know this was not allowed", and that when pointing out out a mod as incorrect even if they are incorrect, it brings down the appearance of the site that the people there know what they are talking about.

        In my situation I was correct and they were wrong, but even when they stood corrected, i learned that the rule was not to correct them for the world to see, but in private message in which they would go back in and edit their original post and delete mine stating they were incorrect and here is the link and why etc.

        At first I was upset about it, but when told about why it was that way, I realized that it does make sense to have a clean forum free of corrections that would discredit the sites community IQ etc.

        My ban by the way was temporary. after chatting with them and learning what I did wrong, I knew what was and wasnt allowed and ban lifted.

        I appreciate what your saying and thats the reason you won't find the mods name written in this thread, but I don't feel it relates as strongly in live chat.
        I also think the mod being wrong was by far less detrimental to any such reputation than the way he interrogated me.

        Particularly in this case, I felt as if the mod was actively trying to make me look stupid rather than actually accomplish anything, I invite you to read the logs onwards from here;
        "03:45 wildbill guest_42: if you cant find a fault with the psu the gpu was probably at fault, also looked your psu up earlier, its a tier 2 so I'd be surprised if it was the cause of your problems."

        I was attacked based on that statement for almost 10 minutes, then after I thought it was over, climax;

        03:53 mod "That's a tier one PSU wildbill"
        "03:54 wildbill so you just validate my statement further?"
        03:54 mod "So for one thing your references are wrong"
        "03:54 wildbill tier 2: S12-II Seasonic"
        « Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 09:01:40 AM by wildbill »

        WillyW



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        Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
        « Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 08:57:13 AM »
        ...any forum or chat with rules like that is hardly worth visiting.

        Which kills it. Albeit sometimes slowly.
        That's the great shame... that something that could be so good, is allowed to go to ruin.

        Quote
        Forums like this (No idea about chat but despite issues like this I expect it is pretty much the same) where moderators and helpers correct each other are far more conducive to real help.

        Of course.

        So that raises the question:  Is "real help" the #1 concern?   Or is it ego massaging?    Or.. somehow... is it money?

        Quote
        I would argue that moderators banning users who point out false information they are providing to others reflects more poorly on a forum or chat than allowing other users to provide the correct information.

        Correct.


        Quote
        Forums and chats do not exist to stroke the moderators ego,

        Apparently - incorrect.
        'SHOULD not exist...'  is correct.


        No one has brought up the thing that matters:
        It is not the correcting of someone - moderator or not -  it is HOW one goes about it, that matters.

        "Look here dumbass,  this is how you do it....   and on top of that, I just proved that I'm smarter than you"   is what causes the problems.

        People react, and make rules that say, "No correcting moderators"  because they either can't think, or are lazy.
        They can't think, because they don't seem to realize that they just created an upper class of people, who will gladly accept and expound on their new upper class position.    It is all really pathetic and ridiculous.
        What difference does it make if one person is a "moderator" and other is not?    It doesn't.   But if you give them a chance, it will - every time.


        For some reason, the written word like this - both forums and IRC - are conducive to rudeness, non-thinking, and general stupidity when trying (or not trying) to communicate.   If one can't deal with it, and handle it, then one shouldn't be a "moderator".   Simple.   That solves it.      Making more rules and regulations doesn't solve it.  It makes more opportunity for problems, just like this one.





        .



        wildbill

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          Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
          « Reply #10 on: June 27, 2016, 03:42:03 PM »
          And ....   what happens next?
          Either nothing, or the op is tossed out.
          The first actually reinforces and thus encourages this behavior - it spreads.    The second diminishes it.
          Which has happened over the years?   

          It is very sad.




          So it looks as if you thought correct; nothing

          I saw the mod in question browsing this thread for at least 30+ minutes a few days ago and had hoped they would take some responsibility for their actions, even a comment like;
          Quote from: fake response example
          Yea that happened, so what?

          when your ban ends just remember that if I want to argue with you, don't defend yourself or you will be banned

          kbai
          or
          Quote from: fake response example
          sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll donate $1,000,000 GBP to you for your emotional trauma, after they finish voting on how quickly to devalue their currency.
          that would have at least shown that the mod was willing to take responsibility for their actions, right or wrong doesn't matter, it's not a weakness to have humility or show respect to strangers.
          "With great power, comes great ..." I forget the rest, probably complete BS anyway, where is my e-peen measuring device.

          sarcastic humour aside,
          I was disappointed to see the mod come and presumably read the whole thread(everything before this post), only to leave without a word.

          I can only think the mod was either;
          - Feigning ignorance of this thread to avoid any possible confrontations &/or the possibility that they are as fallible as the people they ban.
          OR maybe
          - The supreme leader was looking down at this thread from above while laughing as the ant with no legs squirmed. This ant had just had his legs amputated for biting the finger of the supreme leader who was fond of poking ants to demonstrate superiority. after some fellow ants gather at the limbless body the supreme leader grows bored & leaves the area to sleep, with the fresh satisfaction of being so greatly superior to the powerless ants, while also seeing the entire conflict as the ants own fault.

          (I tried my best to keep the horror story emotion roller coaster true to actual events, let me know if it is inappropriate or too hard to understand)
          the original post has the log & recount of events, the story above is a guess at what sort of person does these things?

          If the first scenario is true, I feel sorry for you and hope you can learn to reconsider your 'facts' next time someone tells you the earth is round.
          If the second is true, well... I have no respect for anyone who would satisfy their narcissistic tendencies by demeaning another individual in any way.


          PLEASE share your thoughts If anyone can come up with another possible reason why a mod would have done some or all of the following;
           - disrespect you and your opinion consistently, WHY? NECESSARY? I'm happy to give up time explaining things to people who ask, not command, w/out please/thankyou, no reason given...
           - tell you to explain but refuse to say what needs explaining.
           - muted you without allowing you enough time to explain anything at all.
           - decided coffees need to be made the second a mute is applied, so you have to wait for the mods personal life... congratulations mr powerful.
           - declared you wrong without checking the facts first.
           - banned you for pointing out their accusations are false.
           - followed you and read a full thread based on their actions but didn't reply or leave any evidence of their presence.

          I actually find it insulting that the mod wasted the 30-60 minutes of his life reading everything, but couldn't spend 5 minutes to give us his opinion.
          I waited a couple of days before writing this just to make sure the lack of response wasn't due to urgent business or something of the sort.


          THE THING THAT SADDENS/ANGERS ME THE MOST;
          After I got banned and copied the chat log, I saw that the poor fellow I was helping mentioned near the end that he will buy a new PSU "just in case", even though we had already found his GPU was at fault & the PSU could have quite easily still been perfect (depends on how much you trust the blokes directional hearing from inside a case lol).
          ALL I CAN DO is sit here and worry about whether or not he wasted over $100 because I wasn't able to further discuss it with him. (that's about the only thing I personally have against this moderator)


          Just had to get the remainder of my thoughts regarding all of this on the record as the thread will likely end soon and get placed on a certain moderators wall of superiority along with 70% of the threads in the chat forum section.

          As always and more so in regards to this post, I am excited to see what replies anyone may have to share their thoughts/opinions.
          I'm interested to see what sort of reply if any I might get from the mod who banned me, posts are generally a bit better than live chat for rational arguments to be made.
          Thanks to all who take the time to consider the issues raised here &/or admin abuse as a subject, looking at the threads in this forum section actually concerns me...

          Kind Regards to All,
          Bill


          PS. I'm still banned even though I know the mod who banned me took the time to read this thread... I really am simply disappointed, not upset :/


          EDIT - in the interest of knowledge, I just did a bit of research on narcissism and while I stand by my previous statement regarding anyone who acts in such a way, I do now also feel sorry for anyone who actually has narcissism.
          The problem is everyone derives pleasure from having the admiration or respect of others(AFAIK), that's why I put so much effort towards helping anyone who comes my way and try to treat everyone I meet in the kindest way possible, even without the ability to empathise, you still know right from wrong, Morales should be enough for a person to control themselves.
          « Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:04:29 PM by wildbill »

          Allan

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          Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
          « Reply #11 on: June 27, 2016, 04:22:20 PM »
          It's a chat room for crying out loud. If they don't want you there go somewhere else. There are lots of better support chat rooms with staffs that know how to treat people nicely and with respect. If I were you I wouldn't waste another second on this.

          wildbill

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            Re: IRC ban appeal & humble request for further information.
            « Reply #12 on: June 27, 2016, 05:46:48 PM »
            lol yea mate, I appreciate what your saying, unfortunately I'm not fighting this hard just to go back and get banned again for spam when I'm helping everyone in the room alone xD.

            no, I originally just wanted an explanation, apology or ban lol :).
            but after seeing the replies I got from people who clearly see this far too often & the general tone of hopelessness that is given off, it fuelled my flame of disapproval.
            I'm a bit of an idealist and I know this fight is pointless and stubborn, but I hate seeing corruption considered normal.

            I'm from straya mate,
            fight for whats right.