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Author Topic: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems  (Read 5890 times)

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comda

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backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« on: August 22, 2016, 09:51:37 AM »
Greetings!

I have a few older machines, including my parents first computer. It kept us going from 92 all the way until 2004. Granted everything inside was upgraded. This machine features a 133Mhz Pentium 1, a 10Gb hard drive (Windows 95 sees only 7.5 i think it has a recovery partition my dad gave me a floppy that booted something that looks like an early norton ghost) 32mb of ram CD ROm and floppy.

The biggest thing it has is my childhood. And thats my biggest issue. I want to possibly preserve it just in case that hard drive does die. When the machine was a 386 (i was born in 95 so im too young to remember it) the drive did die.

Anyways what im getting at is there a peace of software that i can use even with a modern OS from my main machine that would make an image of the HDD from this Pentium 1 machine or even the Compaq in my other thread that im trying to play with. So that if the drive where to die. I have that image somewhere else.

All and any help will be greatly appreciated. i should have done this a while ago.

DaveLembke



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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 12:32:20 PM »
Depending on the drive brand, you could use a free utility and clone it to a newer IDE Hard drive. Such as seagate hard drive you can use the seagate tool and its free. i have even heard on systems with more than 2 hard drives as long as it detects a valid Seagate hard drive mounted that you can actually clone say a Maxtor drive to a Western Digital with a Seagate 3rd drive attached etc.

Norton Ghost is what I use for imaging older systems. But you would want to have a IDE DVD-RW drive to burn 7.5GB to up to 2 DVD-R's. Depending on how much free space you have you might be able to squeeze it onto a single DVD-R. With CD-R's with a CD-RW drive your looking at up to 11 CD-R discs if there is just about no free space at 700MB per newest capacity CD-R.

Ghost is the safer way to go it will perform a check after the process and tell you if its a pass or fail on the imaging to disc.

Cloning a hard drive if you select the wrong order you can erase the entire hard drive by accident by copying over the blank drive over the master drive with the data on it.

What make/model hard drive is that 10GB? And do you have a Seagate hard drive that is 10GB or larger that is healthy and IDE type to clone to if you wanted to?


I totally understand the urgency to back up or clone that drives contents as for I have had 2 hard drives die when in storage. One was a 10MB hard drive that went to my old 8088XT and the other was a 4.3GB Quantum BigFoot 5.25" monster large hard drive that went to a Acer 200Mhz Pentium 1 with important data on them. Fortunately I backed up all data from the 10MB and 4.3GB hard drives to CD-R and DVD-R as for the last time I went to spin up the drives to use them in older of the era hardware the 10MB wouldnt spin up. The drive motor no longer spun. The 4.3GB I spun up and it ran for about 2 hours and then overheated and dismounted. If I chill the 4.3GB I can get it to run until the drive heats up and then it goes out to lunch. So these drives the 4.3GB a 20 year old hard drive and the 10MB a 30+ year old had drive became paperweights. The weird thing with the 10MB hard drive is that the center shaft to the drive has a black plastic nub that sticks out of the drive that you could see spinning back when the drive worked. But when the drive didnt spin up and tried it on a couple systems and then spun the black nub with my fingers to see if I could unseize the drive it didnt help and so its junk. Something on the main boards failed on the drives I believe and they were kept in a dry closet in the dark for years although not in ESD bags.

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 12:46:32 PM »
Pardon me.
Old computers do not doLBA on hard drives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_block_addressing
You may have an issue trying to clone an old hard drive. Or maybe not.

My advice; get a cloud service and see if the old PC can gt into the internet. If so, upload the photos and documents of a personal nature.

patio

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 12:50:49 PM »
You do not neccessarily need a full clone so ignore the above details...
The data ...pics music etc don't need that OS to work properly....as it's an older PC i would prioritise whats 1st and go from there just in case the HDDD doesn't survive a full clone.
   
 
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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 01:44:32 PM »
You do not neccessarily need a full clone so ignore the above details...
The data ...pics music etc don't need that OS to work properly....as it's an older PC i would prioritise whats 1st and go from there just in case the HDDD doesn't survive a full clone.
I agree... In some cases a 'clone' job can be destructive.

DaveLembke



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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 03:35:09 PM »
Quote
You may have an issue trying to clone an old hard drive. Or maybe not.

True... the 10GB drive would have been very expensive if its an early 10GB pre-LBA. Im thinking their drive might have a date code on it of 1997-1998 when 10GB was starting to become the norm for storage capacity in new computers of the time. The Pentium 133 may have started off with a smaller 2.5GB hard drive and then that drive replaced to a 10GB are my thoughts unless a premium was paid for 10GB. Knowing the drive make/model and date code would help know if the drive supports LBA. Then there is the issue whether the motherboards BIOS supports LBA and if LBA was used or a legacy mode. LBA shows use in ATA-1 in 1994 so it could have LBA with a Pentium 133. Since the Pentium 133-166-200Mhz systems were on the market in 1994-1997.

I have used Norton Ghost 2003 with systems as old as Pentium 75Mhz running Windows 98 with 32MB RAM 1.2GB HDD, and a CD-RW drive to burn the image to CD-R. https://support.symantec.com/en_US/article.TECH107705.html

Quote
My advice; get a cloud service and see if the old PC can gt into the internet. If so, upload the photos and documents of a personal nature.
Getting that system connected to cloud storage service would be quite the challenge...I cant think of any cloud client that supports 95. Better idea would be if just backing up files without the OS, would be to create a network share on the Windows 95 system and access the share with a newer computer, but networking these old and new computer to 95 could be troublesome. The Pentium 133 probably also doesnt have any USB ports and Windows 95 is horrible for USB device support. For large file transfers in the Windows 95 days I use to use a parallel port cable, double ended male 25-pin D-SUB and laplink like software called FileVan in which the trial allowed you to transfer a limited number of files via LPT1 (printer port) of each computer at like 1200 baud. I zipped all the data to a single zip file with pkzip and then transferred the large file made up of other many files within it from one computer to the other. Then used pkunzip to decompress the data to the other computer. It took a few hours to complete the transfer over 1200 baud but it worked for 2 computers that were not Network ready and only had modems with dial-up to internet. Laplink allowed transfer over Serial which would have been faster, but laplink wasnt available to me at the time and this trial download worked for 1 time need of data transfer.

comda

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 09:58:03 PM »
True... the 10GB drive would have been very expensive if its an early 10GB pre-LBA. Im thinking their drive might have a date code on it of 1997-1998 when 10GB was starting to become the norm for storage capacity in new computers of the time. The Pentium 133 may have started off with a smaller 2.5GB hard drive and then that drive replaced to a 10GB are my thoughts unless a premium was paid for 10GB. Knowing the drive make/model and date code would help know if the drive supports LBA. Then there is the issue whether the motherboards BIOS supports LBA and if LBA was used or a legacy mode. LBA shows use in ATA-1 in 1994 so it could have LBA with a Pentium 133. Since the Pentium 133-166-200Mhz systems were on the market in 1994-1997.

I have used Norton Ghost 2003 with systems as old as Pentium 75Mhz running Windows 98 with 32MB RAM 1.2GB HDD, and a CD-RW drive to burn the image to CD-R. https://support.symantec.com/en_US/article.TECH107705.html
Getting that system connected to cloud storage service would be quite the challenge...I cant think of any cloud client that supports 95. Better idea would be if just backing up files without the OS, would be to create a network share on the Windows 95 system and access the share with a newer computer, but networking these old and new computer to 95 could be troublesome. The Pentium 133 probably also doesnt have any USB ports and Windows 95 is horrible for USB device support. For large file transfers in the Windows 95 days I use to use a parallel port cable, double ended male 25-pin D-SUB and laplink like software called FileVan in which the trial allowed you to transfer a limited number of files via LPT1 (printer port) of each computer at like 1200 baud. I zipped all the data to a single zip file with pkzip and then transferred the large file made up of other many files within it from one computer to the other. Then used pkunzip to decompress the data to the other computer. It took a few hours to complete the transfer over 1200 baud but it worked for 2 computers that were not Network ready and only had modems with dial-up to internet. Laplink allowed transfer over Serial which would have been faster, but laplink wasnt available to me at the time and this trial download worked for 1 time need of data transfer.

Ill check and get the exact model of the hard drive. Have you guys ever used Acronis? I was suggested it but its not free. Apparently it does a good job. But before i shell out i want to know.

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2016, 06:40:07 AM »
Use an adapter/enclosure for the drive and image it directly using modern software as a USB drive on another system. Anything else is just a waste of time, IMO; either the software won't support it (even Clonezilla's i386 builds require pae) or the software will make it a pain (having to burn discs via ghost).

Just take the drive out and use an Adapter or enclosure to connect it to a more modern system via USB. Then image it there.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

comda

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 02:32:15 PM »
Use an adapter/enclosure for the drive and image it directly using modern software as a USB drive on another system. Anything else is just a waste of time, IMO; either the software won't support it (even Clonezilla's i386 builds require pae) or the software will make it a pain (having to burn discs via ghost).

Just take the drive out and use an Adapter or enclosure to connect it to a more modern system via USB. Then image it there.

Thanks for your reply. Sorry i didn't make it clear. I wasn't intending on using the P1 to make the clone. i want to do just as you're instructing. I just don't know what software to use. I just want to ensure I'm making a clear image that i can later clone back and put back into the machine and it will boot win 9X in this case 95.

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2016, 04:06:55 PM »
Any Drive imaging software would work. The concerns noted regarding LBA are redundant as the drive must support some form of LBA to be 10GB to begin with; Most drives supported LBA as it was defined in the ATA-1 standard as well as being present in the original IDE spec as an option- BIOS support was the variable, which won't matter for a USB adapter or enclosure. (I don't know whether CHS access would prevent creating an image anyway!).

You might be able to "verify" the image by attempting to boot it via a VM. it probably won't work flawlessly but if it even tries to boot Windows 95 then it's probably a good image to use.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

patio

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2016, 05:46:52 PM »
I use and recommend Acronis...however as you stated it ain't Free...

My current Free recommendations are Macrium Reflect...or Easus ToDo...
   
 
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comda

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2016, 12:03:50 PM »
I use and recommend Acronis...however as you stated it ain't Free...

My current Free recommendations are Macrium Reflect...or Easus ToDo...

If its worth the price tag, i don't mind investing in Acornis. As long as i can image the drive to another drive or to a img file of some sort i can later restore if say the drive finally dies. Its not gonna last forever. I wish they did

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2016, 03:27:16 PM »
Referring to the article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_block_addressing
Quote
The LBA scheme replaces earlier schemes which exposed the physical details of the storage device to the software of the operating system. Chief among these was the cylinder-head-sector (CHS) scheme, where blocks were addressed by means of a tuple which defined the cylinder, head, and sector at which they appeared on the hard disk.
What is not clearly stated is that the CHS scheme can bit hard. It might not be an issue or it can. This is not ambiguity on my part. The scheme lends  to mistakes. Put another way, you need to format the drive with the machine that is going to use it. That will insure there is no alternative interpretation in the plan.

I am just trying to help.   :)

patio

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2016, 04:33:45 PM »
No he doesn't...
The current os will read the older files just fine.
   
 
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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2016, 06:14:12 PM »
Referring to the article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_block_addressingWhat is not clearly stated is that the CHS scheme can bit hard. It might not be an issue or it can. This is not ambiguity on my part. The scheme lends  to mistakes. Put another way, you need to format the drive with the machine that is going to use it. That will insure there is no alternative interpretation in the plan.

I am just trying to help.   :)
I disagree. I don't think LBA could be an issue here; LBA support is part of the original IDE specification (and later, ATA-1).

One would have to go back to ESDI or ST-506 interfaces to find drives which did not provide LBA support. I do not think a 10GB drive that has Windows 95 on it is likely to be either an ESDI or an ST-506 'winchester' drive.

I think the formatting issue you mentioned is unrelated to CHS addressing, but the result of older Hard Drives (we're talking the original drives for the 5150 and 5160) using Stepper Motors to control the read/write head, which meant that the stepper motor degrading or even the drive being at a different temperature could cause disk read failures.

Alternatively, I suppose later drives could become unreadable if the incorrect parameters were put into a BIOS that required Hard drive parameters to be entered manually- they could also seemingly work if the drive was formatted with those incorrect parameters (but it would degrade over time) However, that was a BIOS limitation- not a drive one. I had a 42 MB Western Digital IDE drive from 1987 which was auto-detected without issue on more modern systems, despite the system it was original in requiring me to enter the drive parameters into the CMOS setup manually.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

comda

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Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2016, 01:08:21 AM »
I disagree. I don't think LBA could be an issue here; LBA support is part of the original IDE specification (and later, ATA-1).

One would have to go back to ESDI or ST-506 interfaces to find drives which did not provide LBA support. I do not think a 10GB drive that has Windows 95 on it is likely to be either an ESDI or an ST-506 'winchester' drive.

I think the formatting issue you mentioned is unrelated to CHS addressing, but the result of older Hard Drives (we're talking the original drives for the 5150 and 5160) using Stepper Motors to control the read/write head, which meant that the stepper motor degrading or even the drive being at a different temperature could cause disk read failures.

Alternatively, I suppose later drives could become unreadable if the incorrect parameters were put into a BIOS that required Hard drive parameters to be entered manually- they could also seemingly work if the drive was formatted with those incorrect parameters (but it would degrade over time) However, that was a BIOS limitation- not a drive one. I had a 42 MB Western Digital IDE drive from 1987 which was auto-detected without issue on more modern systems, despite the system it was original in requiring me to enter the drive parameters into the CMOS setup manually.

So sorry about the late reply. Ive no Clue what all these interfaces are haha. I DID however manage to get a copy of Acornis. It better be worth the $$ cause holy *censored*.

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    Re: backing up and imaging older machines and Operating systems
    « Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 12:24:12 PM »
    The IDE to USB adapter as mentioned in a prior post is what I use.  "RANDOM Ebay example"- but I have this model.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-to-SATA-IDE-2-5-3-5-5-25-Hard-Drive-CD-DVD-Drive-Adapter-MK-U29-/390844134143?hash=item5b002032ff:g:Mz0AAOSwe7BWznRf

    Pull the drive from the computer, put in the adapter, use the supplied power adapter- your modern computer accepts it as a USB drive. Use modern software to copy it do DVD or a Thumb drive. It works- I just used it for a 10GByte 2.5" drive; it also works with full size IDE and SATA drives.
    "Other" is DOS and PharLap DOS, for embedded systems.