soybean, yea I run the ccleaner after I'm off line. I sent a pm to dl65 and explained whats checked and whats not, both in windows and applications also I told dl65 I can't seem to save a screen shot in paint as a jpeg, only bmap and the forum says its an invalid format, could it just be this old worn out system I've got, I'm not leaving that out as a possible cause for this problem. :-/