Computer Hope
Hardware => Hardware => Topic started by: dareys on July 24, 2008, 10:03:49 AM
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Greetings,
I am trying to find out if a CMOS battery provides enough power (I would think yes) to boot a PC. Can anyone confirm this?
If so, I think the issue would be how long the machine could operate on it...
Please comment if possible.
Regards,
Jean-Pierre
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No.
(I resist the temptation to make this one of my shortest posts ever)
3 Volts of power isn't even enough for the +5V standby rail, let alone the +12v rail needed for almost all peripherals as well as the motherboard, which would only boot when supplied the POWER_GOOD signal... How exactly would you rig the CMOS battery to start the machine anyway?
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BC_Programmer,
Thank you for the response. It has been a very long time since electricity but isn't 3.0 V enough to power up a tape player?
Anyway, I don't know what the power requirements are for the motherboard and other components may be. I also don't know the exact specifications of the battery. I have written the manufacturer about this.
You are the second person to state this. I am just checking a bit out of curiosity.
This whole issue is related to being able to power up a PC that is shutdown. I know that if you can send a packet to the Network card and wake up the PC if the Wake On LAN option is enabled for the card. I have seen this.
However, the other colleague who replied indicated that the PC had to be hooked to a power supply in order for this to happen, which makes sense.
I am just trying to find out if it would be possible using an alternate source of power.
I hope this makes sense.
Jean-Pierre
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BC_Programmer,
I am just trying to find out if it would be possible using an alternate source of power.
Yes, to this...but, not from a 3 volt CR2032 battery.
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BC_Programmer,
Ah, so it would be possible to boot the PC from another battery.
OK, perhaps a 3.0 Volt CMOS battery would not be enough...
What about a ¨... bridge battery. This battery is only found within portable computers and is used as a temporary backup for the main battery. This allows you to remove the main battery and replace it with a good battery without having to turn off the computer.¨
Do you think this would provide enough power to pull it off?
Jean-Pierre
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BC_Programmer,
Ah, so it would be possible to boot the PC from another battery.
OK, perhaps a 3.0 Volt CMOS battery would not be enough...
What about a ¨... bridge battery. This battery is only found within portable computers and is used as a temporary backup for the main battery. This allows you to remove the main battery and replace it with a good battery without having to turn off the computer.¨
Do you think this would provide enough power to pull it off?
Jean-Pierre
What are you trying to accomplish?
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BC_Programmer,
I think I now know that if you leave a desktop plugged into a power supply and you have it hooked to a router with a wireless network enabled, somebody can tap into the Network card, wake the machine up and access the PC.
I am trying to learn as much as I can about these posibilities to prevent the illegal access of equipment. I have suspected this for a long time.
More recently, I was using a laptop that I would power down and unplug at night, only to find odd things in the morning. So I was suspecting a secondary battery might allow the startup and access as I specified above.
Paranoid? Well, if you had had the problems I have had over a long period of time you would really try to cover all the bases.
Jean-Pierre
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BC_Programmer,
I think I now know that if you leave a desktop plugged into a power supply and you have it hooked to a router with a wireless network enabled, somebody can tap into the Network card, wake the machine up and access the PC.
I am trying to learn as much as I can about these posibilities to prevent the illegal access of equipment. I have suspected this for a long time.
More recently, I was using a laptop that I would power down and unplug at night, only to find odd things in the morning. So I was suspecting a secondary battery might allow the startup and access as I specified above.
Paranoid? Well, if you had had the problems I have had over a long period of time you would really try to cover all the bases.
Jean-Pierre
a) Disable Wake on LAN in the BIOS, if it's an issue, and, password protect the BIOS.
b) I have no clue what you are talking about with the laptop - but, you don't need another battery to access it, the laptop has one. Password protect the laptop.
c) Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not after you; but, they're not powering up your desktop machines with the CMOS battery.
I entered this thread with reluctance, I am now out.
Best of luck!
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BC_Programmer,
Sorry to hear you were reluctant to enter the thread... In any case, I appreciate the help and the suggestions and will give them a try.
It is precisely because I am not paranoid that it never occurred to me that somebody might be after my equipment, software and electronic persona. Now, I suspect this may have been the case, perhaps for a number of years.
More recently, and because I have been in the IT business for several decades, I thought I could handle things myself. You can learn anything right? I do know a fair amount about PCs and learned about Networking but it is not my specialty.
Now, I think whenever I get enough cash, I might hire a black belt in NetWorking to help me really bullet proof my environment.
Anyway, thank you, good luck, and be well.
Jean-Pierre
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You continually address your posts to BC_Programmer; fyi, except for the first response, you've been responding to posts from drmsucks.
Not particularly noteworthy, but, I don't want BC_Programmer held responsible for anything that I might have said.
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If you must power off of a battery source, I'd go with a 12V Power Inverter that will create the clean 60hz sine AC at around 120VAC and wattage as great as the power inverter is rated for. For about $40 ot $50 you can get a 700Watt power inverter that will convert 12VDC to 120VAC with a maximum load of 700Watts. But the greater the draw in wattage, the quicker your 12VDC ( Car or Truck Battery ) will drain.
Other use for my 700 Watt power inverter was when we had a power outage for 6 hrs at night, and I had my toyota pickup idle in the driveway with an extension cord running into the house so that I could watch TV on our smaller 13" color TV that I dug out of storage and needed about 350 watts, a box fan about 30 watts, and a florescent light, about 12 watts for 60watts of light on a hot sticky summer night a year ago after a fuse blew on the utility pole after a nasty storm and brown out... So if you get a power inverter, it has more uses than just to power a computer from battery. You could use it as am alternate power source when you have no power available.
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DaveLembke,
Thank you for the very original response.
Good luck and be well.
Jean-Pierre
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drmsucks,
I just reviewed the thread and I stand corrected. Sorry about that. It would seem that you are the one who provided me with the final suggestions to password protect the laptop (which it is), disable WOL (which it is) and password protect the BIOS (which I am going to do). I assume you do that from the standard BIOS configuration boot time menu.
Thank you.
Jean-Pierre
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Am I mistaken to assume that you're just trying to think of other sources of power that can be used to power up a machine, and only thought of a CMOS battery as a possibility? If So, a Power inverter (or even, for short periods, a UPS), would facilitate that. However, Ithink you're also asking whether a computer can be remotely powered up without having it's power cord plugged in.
I think I now know that if you leave a desktop plugged in and you have it hooked to a router with a wireless network enabled, somebody can tap into the Network card, wake the machine up and access the PC.
I'm not sure, but I don't think a Wireless network card can be used as a WOL source, since the card itself needs to be connected to the network (facilitated with wires in the wired case) to be accessed by other computers. a more likely method would be to access the router that that wireless card is connecting to, and (possibly, if the card can recieve packets while the computer is off) somehow get it to turn on. It's possible with wired NICs, simply because their is no extra device (antenna) to power, it just needs a little standby power to monitor the network. However, a wireless card needs to essentially have full-power just to facilitate waking the computer, since it will need to remain connected to a wireless network.
More recently, I was using a laptop that I would power down and unplug at night, only to find odd things in the morning. So I was suspecting a secondary battery might allow the startup and access as I specified above.
So- are we actually talking about the laptops main battery? because that is designed to power up the laptop. In addition, bear in mind that a desktop PC, in almost all cases, requires far more power then a Laptop (for obvious reasons, not the least of which is the fact that, for the laptop, power conservation is critical to good productivity. On the other hand, Power management in desktop computers is more of a green initiative, (one with the side effect of possibly reducing electricity bills).
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but the best way to secure a wireless network from access is to use an encrypting protocol, such as WPA or WEP. (I can't recall the good one off the top of my head. I want to say WEP, though).
What about a ¨... bridge battery. This battery is only found within portable computers and is used as a temporary backup for the main battery. This allows you to remove the main battery and replace it with a good battery without having to turn off the computer.¨
Problem with that is that the secondary battery requires that the computer be put on standby/suspended (most do it automatically), to conserve power draw.
I believe it was said before, but I believe your looking in the wrong direction. Features used to remotely boot computer can always be disabled, wireless networks can be secured, and so forth, what you're looking for (and your comments on your networking experience) sounds like you've skipped checking those alternatives(you believe that networks are capable of much more then they really are, as well- researching things on the net almost surely results in some bad information).
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drmsucks,
I just reviewed the thread and I stand corrected. Sorry about that. It would seem that you are the one who provided me with the final suggestions to password protect the laptop (which it is), disable WOL (which it is) and password protect the BIOS (which I am going to do). I assume you do that from the standard BIOS configuration boot time menu.
Thank you.
Jean-Pierre
I think, from what you have said, that I would: a) enable the password in the BIOS (yes, you're correct), b) enable a Windows password, c) look at True Crypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/).
Good luck!
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drmsucks,
Ok. Thank you for the help and the encryption tip. I never thought I would go as far as to consider it. Other vendors provide software to do this, like PGP or McAfee, but I can´t afford it right now.
Anyway, like you I am now out of this thread.
Good luck and be well.
Jean-Pierre
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drmsucks,
Ok. Thank you for the help and the encryption tip. I never thought I would go as far as to consider it. Other vendors provide software to do this, like PGP or McAfee, but I can´t afford it right now.
Anyway, like you I am now out of this thread.
Good luck and be well.
Jean-Pierre
True Crypt is free.
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PC_Programmer,
>Am I mistaken to assume that you're just trying to think of other sources of power >that can be used to power up a machine, and only thought of a CMOS battery as a >possibility? If So, a Power inverter (or even, for short periods, a UPS), would >facilitate that. However, Ithink you're also asking whether a computer can be >remotely powered up without having it's power cord plugged in.
Correct on both accounts.
>I'm not sure, but I don't think a Wireless network card can be used as a WOL >source, since the card itself needs to be connected to the network (facilitated with >wires in the wired case) to be accessed by other computers. a more likely method >would be to access the router that that wireless card is connecting to, and
>(possibly, if the card can recieve packets while the computer is off) somehow get it >to turn on. It's possible with wired NICs, simply because their is no extra device
>(antenna) to power, it just needs a little standby power to monitor the network. >However, a wireless card needs to essentially have full-power just to facilitate >waking the computer, since it will need to remain connected to a wireless network.
This makes sense.
>So- are we actually talking about the laptops main battery? because that is >designed to power up the laptop. In addition, bear in mind that a desktop PC, in >almost all cases, requires far more power then a Laptop (for obvious reasons, not >the least of which is the fact that, for the laptop, power conservation is critical to >good productivity. On the other hand, Power management in desktop computers is >more of a green initiative, (one with the side effect of possibly reducing electricity >bills).
Yes.
>I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but the best way to secure a wireless >network from access is to use an encrypting protocol, such as WPA or WEP. (I can't >recall the good one off the top of my head. I want to say WEP, though).
I tried both. The wireless network was encrypted. The laptop was password protected. The WOL network card setting was turned off at the Windows XP OS Level. The only thing I have not had time to research is trying so see if like dmrsucks says, you can password protect the BIOS.
>Problem with that is that the secondary battery requires that the computer be put >on standby/suspended (most do it automatically), to conserve power draw.
Ok.
>I believe it was said before, but I believe your looking in the wrong direction. >Features used to remotely boot computer can always be disabled, wireless >networks can be secured, and so forth, what you're looking for (and your comments >on your networking experience) sounds like you've skipped checking those >alternatives(you believe that networks are capable of much more then they really >are, as well- researching things on the net almost surely results in some bad
>information).
I have several comments regarding this answer:
First, as per my previous comment, I have done everything in my power to secure the environment after doing a lot of research (password protected the laptop, turned off WOL, encrypted the wireless network, reduced the number of available connections to the router, changed the default and starting IP addrresses and other things etc.). Any still, very weird things have happened to me. Othewise, I would not be investing my time on this. I have not skipped anything.
Second, as far as researching information on the network, it is like any kind of research. You will find some bad information and you will find some good information. It requires experience, judgement, and knowing who the source is. It can be difficult, but it is another ressource, just like Wikepedia. Sometimes excellent, but sometimes I have seen blatant mistakes.
Third, like I have posted before, networks are not my IT specialty, but I have had to learn a lot about them because they are essential, to protect myself, and to know what is involved as it can be useful for business.
Regards,
Jean-Pierre
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If your laptop is booting randomly, it could be a hardware fault, or the power button might be broken or something. It's likely a hardware issue, was what I was trying to say before.
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BC_Programmer,
That would clearly be a hardware problem which would not concern me a great deal since there is not much I can do about it. Repairing it might cost more than buying a new computer.
This particular one has been good to me but it is starting to be outdated and can´t really handle the stuff I really want to put on it. These days, to a power user, the life span of these machines is a few years max
However, that is the least of my problems. I have full backups and can recreate on any other better machine. It is the security breaches, in spite of my significant efforts to pre-empt them, which worry me.
Like I have said, if I have these problems after being in IT since 1979, I can´t begin to fathom what the average user, with children and downloads galore, might go through.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback. I am now out of this thread.
Thank you for the help, Good luck and be well.
Jean-Pierre
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I'm kind of scratching my head over this one- What security breaches?
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Only hinted at.
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Gentlemen,
I appreciate everyone´s help, but if you have no additional technical suggestions, I would like to end the thread as I am really busy with other things like finding a job and getting a life. Kind of hard when you are distracted by things like these.
To satisfy your curiosity, I will quote myself:
¨More recently, I was using a laptop that I would power down and unplug at night, only to find odd things in the morning. So I was suspecting a secondary battery might allow the startup and access as I specified above.¨
The issues I would find in the morning would be:
- Missing files
- Altered files (with typos, missing lines, altered lines... much more sneaky)
- Missing software (like the paint program I had to re-install it twice)
- Software that would not work (re-installed MS-Office several times. Ok now)
- Shutdown errors which a patch would fix one week and not the next. Go figure.
Otherwise, I have experienced like page re-direction and landed on pages I did not choose. Receiving mail, spam and pornography from sites I never visited.
Or all of a sudden things freezing and not being able to input text even into worpad, but MS Word would be OK.
Emails not reaching their destination. Bouncing. Altered text, font and colours in my emails. Missing time stamps ... Want more? (to me, that´s plenty). Spent months troubleshooting it with my provider. Wrote to their CEO and many other CEOs...
Odd? Well I have been earning a living in IT for decades and this is NOT normal. It has happened on and off, but in the last several years, it has been out of control. I have lived in three different cities and had to rebuild machines a number of times.
If I was downloading everything in sight, I would understand, but I am cautious and deprive myself of the full IT experience of a normal user, let alone a power user like me, because of all the problems.
I have spent countless hours on backups (sometimes baby sitting them for fifteen to twenty hours and sleeping on the floor to keep checking and make sure they had not quit). All because of strange behaviour....
Anyway, I think I have found software to help me with this. Like Norton GoBack. Too bad I was not paranoid enough to install it six or seven years ago. It has not been fun, but, I have to admit, I have learne an awful lot, and that has been ok.
Too bad the knowledge does not pay the bills! It´s ok, my specialty is in an entirely different realm and that is where I want to go.
Now, the fact that I am telling this, hopefully won´t be a self fullfilling profesy and increase the incidence of the trouble.
Kind of odd telling strangers on the net about this, but it has been my reality. Hopefully, I have learned enough to alter it to my satisfaction.
Good luck and be well.
Jean-Pierre
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Sounds like classic malware infection(s) - not a malevolent scheme to screw with you.
I would suggest that you look in this Forum at the Computer Virus section, see if it suits you, and post a HijackThis log there. The most innocuous computer habits risk a malware infection; it's not a matter of "If," it's a matter of "When."