Computer Hope
Hardware => Hardware => Topic started by: GameAngel64 on February 25, 2008, 10:49:07 PM
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My HP Pavilion Entertainment PC Notebook computer won't boot up. Most of the time. However, seemingly without any pattern or particular conditions it will occasionally start. In fact I am on it right now. Here are the specs per the "My Computer" properties screen:
Microsoft Windows XP
Media Center Edition
Version 2002
Service Pack 2
HP
AMD Turion 64 X2 Mobile
Technology TL-50
1.61GHz, 992 MB of RAM
Physical Address Extension
64.8 Free Gigabytes on the Hard Drive
Hopefully this info is sufficient because the next time I return to this post it'll probably be on my main computer, the desktop, being as this one typically will not boot up.
The exact symptoms are as follows. I press the power button. Assume that all peripherals (mouses, etc.) are disconnected, and there are no CDs in the drive or anything like that. Sometimes the computer is plugged into the wall, sometimes it isn't. The only difference is whether or not the "charging" LED is on or not. But anyway... I hit the power button, and the LED light panel turns on like normal, the power light turns on, and, if it's plugged in, the AC Power light comes on. However, the notable exception is that the hard drive light (I assume - the icon that looks like a stack of CDs?) does not come on. When I initially hit the power button, the comp makes sounds like it wants to start. A quick beep like normal, the fan runs for a moment, but then - dead. Like the hard drive didn't take. Like there is no communication there. There is no illumination or anything on screen. Sometimes the LED lights stay on for a while. Usually the computer shuts off before too long.
Occasionally the computer will remain on in this idle state, and every few seconds the LED light for the hard drive will blink, and when this light blinks the computer will repeat the "starting up" ritual sounds, but nothing happens, the hard drive LED light blinks off, and the screen never reacts.
It's not the battery because if I remove the battery and try to run it on power from the wall, it is exactly the same.
Messing with the computer's hardware is uncharted territory for me, but I followed some instructions and reseated the RAM, but it seemed to neither help nor hinder the frequency with which this computer starts.
I defragged not long ago, and it said I do not have to defrag this volume when I checked a couple days ago.
I did disk clean-up.
I did Scan Disk. Twice. First time I did 'scan for and attempt recovery of bad sectors.' No prob. Then I did Scan Disk again, with this option selected along with 'automatically fix file system errors.' This required a restart. So the computer went through its restart ritual but when it got to the part where it was supposed to boot up again, it hung like usual, before the "HP" logo appeared on screen, before anything. So a long while later I tried to turn the computer on again and it worked, it said it was scheduled to perform the scan disk so it did, however I was away from the computer while it ran, and honestly now I can't remember for certain, but when I returned I think the computer was shut off. Either way next time I turned it on, nothing was reported.
AVG, Ad-Aware, and Norton were run. No viruses or notable Spyware detected.
If by some miracle the computer turns on and you can get to Windows, if you step away long enough for the screen to turn off, it will not turn on again. You've lost it. (So for the time being I've disabled those kinds of power saving features. And forget about restarting it for program updates or anything like that! AVG has been waiting to update forever, and can never complete it).
I don't think overheating is an issue, and I dusted it with a can of compressed air, of what little relevance that might be to this problem. Wasn't particularly dusty anyway.
Generally this computer is only subject to light use, since the desktop computer is the "main" computer in this househould.
Computer's not too old... I think I only bought it a year ago, although now it might be closer to two years.
Any thoughts? Is this a serious hardware issue that I will have to spend big bucks on to repair? Thanks in advance, I know it was a lot to read, and I can work my way around software usually but I try and stay away from messing with the hardware too much!
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It is definitely a hardware problem.
The problem here is that laptops are pretty hard to hardware troubleshoot, since the only hardware you can really replace yourself is the RAM and hard drive.
I'm guessing it isn't the hard drive since the laptop should be able to at least begin boot up without the hdd.
You can test the RAM for defects with Memtest86+ (http://www.memtest.org/)
Download the ISO and burn to a CD. (Don't burn it as simple data disc, it will have to be burned as an image.)
Reboot the laptop with the CD in the drive and memtest will start automatically. It will run a series of tests. You should let it complete the tests at least a couple of times before you can give you RAM a clean bill of health.
But actually lets hope it is the RAM that's failing since they are easy and reasonably cheap to replace.
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what makes you think this is not a heat issue? You say it will randomly shut off/hang. Is the fan working properly? Did you open up the back and make sure that it does not feel hot?
If I were you I'd power it up on its side and see what happens.
Another thing. I doubt that this is a hard drive issue. A hard drive with bad sectors would not cause a hard shutdown. (or at least I've never heard of that) I guess it could be the RAM, but usually when RAM goes bad the comp will not boot to the desktop.
To me it sounds like either heat or a motherboard issue.
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It doesn't randomly shut off so much as persistently not start. If it shuts off while in use, it only shuts off because the screen has been allowed to shut off (for power-saving reasons, hibernation, etc.), not for any other reason.
The comp doesn't boot to the desktop ;) Usually, anyway. Once in a while I get lucky and make it to the desktop. If that happens, everything is fine until I have to shut it down and try to turn it on again later.
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Reading through your post again I'd say the main culprit here is power. Power is running through your motherboard the whole time it is on. If it's not distributing the power from the battery or AC adapter to your internal components (hd, RAM, processor, northbridge, etc.) properly then I think these kind of random things can happen. That is, "sometimes" it will boot to the desktop. Sometimes it will power off. Sometimes it won't cut on. Sounds to me like your motherboard could be failing. Bad problem to have I know. Just my opinion.
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Actually these symptoms occur on laptops with failing/bad batteries...how old is the unit ? ?
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That would make sense if the unit had these symptoms just running off the battery, however, the OP said that they occur with the AC plugged in.
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One suggestion would be to get ahold of a multimeter and test your AC adapter. It is possible that both your battery and AC adapter went bad. If so, that would confirm the dead battery theory.
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I bought the notebook computer no more than two years ago. It might be a bit less than that. It would be uncanny if both the battery and AC adapter are dead/dying at the same time, but it might be better if that's what it is. :)
I did the Memtest86+ bootup CD thing and here is what happened. I put the CD in the drive before I shut off my computer the last time I had it running properly. I shut down my computer. Not long later I turned it back on so the CD would run, but now the LED lights flashed on for barely a second and then everything shut off without a sound. I tried turning it on again a few seconds later and the same thing happened. I decided to try turning it on one more time before going to bed and... the same. Quick flash of the lights, no sound, everything turns off. Thinking that this may be happening because I had JUST used the computer for like two hours, I decide I will try again in the morning. This could be a vote for the "overheating" possibility, except that the computer won't boot up often even when it's been off for days, and it is very cool.
This morning I tried powering it on again with the CD in the drive, and now its response was more typical to how it acts when it doesn't want to boot up; lights come on (and stay on), fan runs, and the CD sounds like it's running, but there's nothing on screen, and periodically it stops running, the lights all blink, the computer makes a couple small beeps, and then the process repeats again.
I may try running the CD again later.
I'm thinking this is indicative of some of the less desirable possibilities being the case? :(
EDIT: I tried running the CD again. This time, I got the computer to boot up without the CD in the drive. Then, once I was at the desktop and everything, I put the CD in and did Restart. However, instead of restarting, when it got to the point where it was supposed to reboot, it just shut down. Not surprising. I tried turning it back on again, and it did the usual beep, fan, no screen, the CD ran for a bit, and before too long the computer shut itself down.
EDIT 2: Ooh boy, I got that Memtest to work and the RAM passed the test three times. This is a bad sign, yes?
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No. If it passed it's a good sign...
But MemTest needs to run for awhile...there are more than 3 tests.
1 1/2 to 2 hours is usually sufficient depending on the speed of the machine.
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I say it's a bad sign because if it's not the RAM that means it's something more serious.
When I say I ran the test three times, I mean ALL the way through. It had a column labeled "Passed" and underneath it it said "3." So I assume that means it ran all tests three times? I let in run for at least an hour and a half.
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Well I brought my computer over to the Geek Squad at Best Buy (first time I've ever done THAT) and the guy basically hit the power button and then gave it back to me, telling me it's the motherboard and that I'm basically screwed. Yay.
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I would seriously consider getting a 2nd opinion...
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GameAngel64,You are currently being assisted by some of the best on the CH forum so i offer this advise knowing full well it will probably not solve your problem. However i note from your initial post that you say "AVG, Ad-Aware, and Norton were run." It has been stated many times that you should NEVER run 2 anti virus programs at the same time. Norton by itself in my humble opinion can be bad enough but to put another tiger in the cage with it can cause great grief and bad things to happen.Doubt this is at the route of the problem but it may eliminate a problem on other computers in the future.My choice would be to go with AVG alone. My money is on a heat generated issue.truenorth
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Huh? I ran Norton first, and then when that was done I ran AVG. Do you mean letting both programs run their virus scans at the same time, because that's not what I did. I did all my scans separately.
Also, I uninstalled AVG thinking that MAYBE there was some off chance that I was having these problems because, as I said, AVG kept trying to update but never could because the computer could not restart properly. However uninstalling AVG did not solve the problem.
I want to get a second opinion, but I don't know where else to go, except to perhaps a tech savvy acquaintance, but I don't know if they'll make any better/more correct of a diagnosis. If it is the motherboard I don't know what I'm gonna do. The thing is out of warranty by a few months, and I really don't want to have to get another computer, they're not exactly passing them out like candy. I'm not exactly sure how effective an angry letter will be. :(
I would like to think it's a heat issue, maybe then it could be repaired, but if the computer has not been run in days and it is cool to the touch, and it still doesn't boot, that doesn't seem right. The fan seems to run fine, and it is not dusty.
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GameAngel,On the anti virus issue--it is not a matter of just "running" them.having 2 (or more) installed on the same computer is enough to cause problems (particularly if Norton is one of them).Anti virus programs are designed to "run" whenever certain functions are instituted IE: web searches,e-mail searches,etc.So anti virus programs do more than just perform either automatic or manual generated computer scans (somewhat variable by owner selected parameters).But they will "fight" with each other when more than 1 is installed.Given your comments about your extremely limited access to this computer how was it you were able to delete AVG? truenorth
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You see, my laptop computer is much like a bad car. If you try about 20+ times, there is a good chance that one of those times it will start. ;)
Although seriously I don't try that many times in one go. If it doesn't come on, I usually wait several hours and try again. If I do this enough times throughout the day, usually it'll start at least one time (though sometimes it will start the first time I try, and then never again the rest of the day, or sometimes it won't start all day at all. Sometimes it will even boot up a couple of times in the same day. It is really random).
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GameAngel,I totally empathise with your situation as i have been there a number of times.It may take a while but i feel that you may well overcome this issue (hopefully by not having to replace the computer). The randomness of the successful boots plus the fact that it occurs on both internal battery and external adapter may suggest that it is an intermittent electrical fault somewhere within the unit as opposed to in the adapter. have you tried placing an object with some weight (not a lot just enough to create a bit of pressure) on the computer to see what happens? If it is a short the pressure may be enough to maintain the contact. It may help to narrow down the issue.good luck,truenorth
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"an intermittent electrical fault somewhere within the unit"
That's the kind of intuitive feeling I get when it boots (or doesn't). Like sometimes it "takes" and sometimes it just doesn't. I'll try putting something weighty on it later. Is there a particular spot I should put this object (don't necessarily want it on top of the keyboard itself), or does it not matter too much where the weight/pressure is specifically applied?
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GameAngel64, Where to place the weight is going to be a guess under the best of conditions without having access to the schematics of the computer. I would emphasise in the area where the external adapter plug enters the case. However it may also be in the area where the internal battery connection terminals are as well.Given that this is a long shot to start with if you can find some type of object that can be moved around and tested in various locations that will probably be the best to try. But i would start at the 2 points i mentioned.Again make sure that it is not too heavy an object.The object being to create minimal pressure at a point where a poor contact is being made. Have you or someone else possibly dropped this computer around the time this started to occur? good luck and keep us posted.PS This test can be more accurately performed with a volt meter but this involves doing things internally with the device turned on and has a potential (particularly by inexperienced people) for catastrophe.truenorth
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As far as I know, the computer has not been dropped, and the people of this household are being adamant that that's the truth. ;D
I tried just pressing down on the computer and had someone else hit the power button, but I didn't apply pressure anywhere near the spots you said, so I'll try that again later. Doing it the way I was doing it, it did boot up on the first try, but I think it was a fluke because everytime thereafter it did not boot. Like I said though I was not by the spots you mentioned, so I'm not counting this out yet.
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Well I tried applying pressure where you suggested, but it didn't help :(
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GameAngel64,When the computer does boot is it always the 1st time after it has been sitting idle for quite some time? Or does it occasionally boot again after it has been on (due to a successful boot) when it has been running for a while?The reason behind this question is:if it never boots successively after an initial good boot it could be that some sort of circuit (could be within a certain capacitor or other individual small conductor) is heating up(which is normal with current) but is through heat expansion breaking continuity and causing the circuit to fail. This theory suffers if the computer when successfully booted stays running for a fair length of time. If you do get a successful boot will the computer stay on until you shut it down?I know that it is more difficult to access internal parts of a laptop than it is for a desktop.However if it is something you have done or feel you can do on this machine have you tried (don't need to remove it) disconnecting the cables to the CD drive and try booting it with them disconnected?I am asking this as things seems to have changed during your 'memtest" trials with the CD drive.truenorth
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If I haven't used the computer in a while, and I hit the power button, I have a somewhat greater degree of confidence that the computer will start. However, I cannot truly say that the computer NEVER boots again quickly after it has booted once. But, as you said, I find it is less likely to boot again immediately if I have been on it for a LONG time after a previous successful boot. I have had no problems with the computer shutting off once it is on - aside for if the screen turned off for power saving reasons. I disabled the power saving features for now, and as long as the computer manages to boot, the experience is completely normal, everything seems to run fine.
Truth be told, though, I haven't really tried to use it for long spans of time since there are these problems. The longest I've used it since the not booting thing has become a real hassle is probably around three hours.
"if it is something you have done or feel you can do on this machine have you tried (don't need to remove it) disconnecting the cables to the CD drive and try booting it with them disconnected?"
No I haven't done this, I don't have a lot of confidence for messing around with hardware, although I tend to be a good learner when it comes to computer stuff. How can one do as you described? Or is there a webpage with good instructions for doing so? Even if it's something I feel I cannot do/should not attempt, I could at the very least enlist someone more hardware savvy than I to try it out.
Thanks for all your help!
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GameAngel64, Given your last reply i have less confidence (which is a good thing) in that you have an intermittent short or even a problem created by extended use (causing an open circuit because of heat build up in an internal component).Because it appears that even though you can have great difficulty and little predictability of when your computer will start;when it does it stays on until you shut it off. To my thinking this rules out the 2 causes we have dealt with in our correspondence. As to your delving into the innards i am not knowledgeable re laptops and their intricacies (but there are I'm sure others that are knowledgeable and hopefully will come on board now). My only experience is with a very old Panasonic Toughbook cf-25 which i am slowly bringing back to use. But i don't have near the financial investment you undoubtedly have in yours so my risk quotient is much lower. But as patio said earlier when your shop "expert" said the Mo Bo was the culprit i too am not convinced of that now given your reports.Perhaps if we both say a prayer this evening patio will rejoin the case as he seems to have a great deal more in depth knowledge on hardware issues than i. The best advice i can extend at this juncture is be patient and stick to it. Hopefully other heads will now join and offer their advice. Unless contradicted by others i still would try the removal of cables to the CD drive because of it's impact on things.If even only to eliminate it as a cause. good luck,truenorth
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"Perhaps if we both say a prayer this evening patio will rejoin the case as he seems to have a great deal more in depth knowledge on hardware issues than i."
Hehe. Perhaps prayer will solve my computer troubles outright! ;D
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GameAngel64, Things are getting really bad --I am lying awake in bed now trying to puzzle this one out.I have another idea.When you are able to boot the computer and it stays running.Have you ever tried to do a "restart" using the "start,shutdown,restart" function of the computer? The reason i am asking that is:if it does restart then it could be the on switch which is causing the problem.I am crossing my fingers that you have not done this yet and when you do it will reboot.If it does then it looks like a new switch will be in order.good luck,truenorth
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Haha, I am sorry to rob you of precious, precious sleep. Unfortunately I have had programs that made the computer reset (i.e. update downloads that require reset to take effect), and the computer has never booted up again, once it gets to the point where it should reboot it just shuts off. I think I also made it reset through Start>Shut Down>Restart when I was trying to run the Memtest disc, and it just shut off where it was supposed to reboot/run the disc.
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Sorry for the double post, but I figure I'll bump this back up in case anybody wanted to see the resolution to this problem.
Upon contacting HP, I learned that my problems stem from a "known hardware issue." Here is the page detailing it:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?docname=c01087194&cc=uk&dlc=en&lc=en&jumpid=reg_R1002_UKEN
Even though I have had the computer for over a year, HP will repair this problem at no charge for 24 months from the time of purchase. In any case, I haven't sent them my computer yet, so hopefully no other conflicts will arise.
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Welcome back...i would be taking advantage of that offer right away...
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I sure am. I sent them my info and now they have to send me packaging and whatnot. They'd better not change their minds ;D
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Hold on- I had this exact problem with one of my laptops if I had the battery installed. Try removing the battery and just running of AC if it will let you...
OK, I just checked. My (REALLY OLD LAPTOP) Toshiba Satellite Pro 440CDX won't boot if I have the battery installed. It just blinks the led's a few times and shuts off- sound familiar?
Oh, drat- looks like you resolved the problem. Well- if you still have it I suppose you could try this...
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Hi, I still have the laptop for now but I did try running it on only AC power a while ago, in case the battery was the culprit. Thanks, though. :)
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well at least the manufacturer will do something- I highly doubt toshiba would be interested in fixing my laptop from 1996 lol.
Wow, 12 years old- I didn't even realize it was that old! Works great until I want either one of Windows XP,Networking,3d-acceleration, and so forth...
And then there is my OTHER laptop from 95, a IBM thinkpad. Running DOS 7 and Windows 3.1 :) has a WHOPPING 8MB of RAM! yippee!
Anyway, good luck with getting your lappie fixed!