Computer Hope
Microsoft => Microsoft Windows => Windows XP => Topic started by: Popinjay on October 02, 2009, 08:22:22 PM
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I didn't know whether to post this as a vita question or an xp question since it involves both.
I have vista installed on my C: drive, and on my D: drive I have XP installed (both are part of the same physical hard drive).
Here is what I want to to:
Remove Vista from the C: drive and install a later version of XP onto the C: drive to replace it. It is important that I do this without destroying my ability to boot to the D: drive or my information on the D: drive. Remember that they are all the same physical drive.
I tried to find an answer to this online but all I could find were instructions on how to do it if vista was NOT installed in your C:drive. Unfortunately mine is.
What can I do?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Popinjay
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Since Vista uses a different bootloader than XP i'm afraid this may not even be possible...
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Here is what I want to to:
Remove Vista from the C: drive and install a later version of XP onto the C: drive to replace it
Please let me tell you this is not a good idea.
Why do you want to do this?
I have had XP installed all over the place on hard drives. It works fine on any partition. I don't know of any strong reason to move it.
Now, having said that, here is a article you may want to read:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc721886(WS.10).aspx
Here is what this means in nutshell. You can not use the popular partition manager programs to copy and/or move around partitions while the boot system was created my Vista or Windows 7. You will crash the boot loader.
I am new to Windows 7 and found the only way I can wok partitions around is to wipe out the Windows 7 installation and then repair the boot loader with the Windows XP install CD. This has a measure of risk. I had a backup plan.
I then had to re-install Windows 7 and it now works, but the boot loader has a double reference to Windows 7. I can not edit it as a text file, as per the link above states.
Now my XP is C: and windows 7 is E: and I am not going to try and change anything. It took me a week to get it to this point. And required the use of two computers and four hard drives. I don't want to do that again and I would never recommend it to anyone.
So, IMO, just be happy you have a dual boot system that works.
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Since Vista uses a different bootloader than XP i'm afraid this may not even be possible...
Is it not possible to format the C: partition then install the newer version of XP in that partition? Setup would create a new bootloader for the version of XP on C: then the Boot.ini file could be edited to give the dual boot options for C: and D: if Setup doesn't automatically do that.
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No because the 2nd install...no matter what flavor of Windows it is needs to write certain system files to the root of C: for it to run properly....
This is why when you setup a dual-boot machine the older OS is always installed first to the C: partition with the 2nd install after the first is in place and working.
Trust me...i've been down this road many times.
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Is it not possible to format the C: partition then install the newer version of XP in that partition? Setup would create a new bootloader for the version of XP on C: then the Boot.ini file could be edited to give the dual boot options for C: and D: if Setup doesn't automatically do that.
I'm with Dusty on this one. It should be fine if you format C: (full format) from a Windows XP operating system so its Partition Boot Record (which looks for NTLDR boot manager) is written to the partition. Should be able to do this either from Windows XP install CD or existing Windows XP on D:.
Verify current C: partition is the "active" primary partition. Can use Disk Management to do this. It should have "System" attribute in the graphic display.
You must be careful to ensure new installation goes to C: partition. I think there's a small "Advanced Options" link (lower right of some paragraph) in one of the early setup screens that permits you to select device and directory to install to.
Trust No One. Backup your data before attempting this.
Reference: A Guide to the Multiboot Process (http://www.multibooters.co.uk/multiboot.html).
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Trust me...
Always, unswervingly, but.... I just had to set up a trial and here's what I did. All install disks are genuine originals or slipstreamed versions produced from genuine versions.
1. Partitioned a hdd and formatted partition D: and installed using Win XP Home SP.1 - reboot.
2. From Cmd.exe formatted partition C:. Installed Windows XP Home SP.3 on partition C:. Noted that Setup referred to D: as being C:. Reboot.
3. NTLDR displayed the multi-boot partition info from Boot.ini with the default being XP Home SP.3 - as expected, the last system installed.
At this point the system is setup similar to the OP's apart from the OP having Vista on partition C:
4. Booted to XP Home SP.1 located on D: and formatted partition C:
5. Rebooted and installed Win XP Pro SP.3 on partition C:
6. On reboot NTLDR displayed the multi-boot partition info from Boot.ini with XP Pro as default as expected. Partition(1) is shown as containing XP SP.1 with XP Pro on partition(2), the reverse of what was expected but not a problem.
My conclusion: Setup will automatically create a multi-boot environment. Apart from the slight confusion with drive letter and partition number allocations when booting into the system on C: the method is viable. After deleting Boot.ini the advisory message showed that the system would be booted to C:\Windows but booted to Win XP SP.1 which theoretically is installed in partition D:
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But here's the flaw between your method and what he needs to do...
When you did the first install of Home to the D: drive the neccessary files for proper operation and dual-boot status were written to the root of the C: drive as they normally would be.
Then you installed to C: and again certain files get written to the root of C:.....
Presto...it works.
However in his scenario he is looking to wipe C: and do a clean install....those files would then be wiped and all the root would contain is the files to boot C:
No amount of editing the boot ini will correct this.
To test this leave D: intact...wipe your C: install and re-install to C:.
Then try and dual -boot.
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But here's the flaw between your method and what he needs to do...
However in his scenario he is looking to wipe C: and do a clean install....those files would then be wiped and all the root would contain is the files to boot C:
To test this leave D: intact...wipe your C: install and re-install to C:.
Then try and dual -boot.
Was this not covered in my post?
At this point the system is setup similar to the OP's apart from the OP having Vista on partition C:
4. Booted to XP Home SP.1 located on D: and formatted partition C:
5. Rebooted and installed Win XP Pro SP.3 on partition C:
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Booted to XP Home SP.1 located on D: and formatted partition C:
But this will not remove the root of C: from within Windows...
This is also by design.
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Okay, I go along with that but when you posted
To test this leave D: intact...wipe your C: install and re-install to C:.
Then try and dual -boot.
what did you intend by wipe?
Is that not what the OP wants to do, format (wipe) C: and install a later version of XP on C: leaving D: intact and bootable which seems to me to be what has been achieved.
What am I missing? Will the Vista bootloader not be overwritten if Vista is removed and a clean install of XP on C: drive is completed?
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Is that not what the OP wants to do, format (wipe) C: and install a later version of XP on C: leaving D: intact and bootable which seems to me to be what has been achieved.
No disrespect Dusty. The OP has limited experience in this. Just doing a new install on the C: partition is NOT going to leave the D: partition intact and bookable. TRUST US.
He has to make an image of the D: partition to another local Drive or or a network drive.
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The primary boot drive always get's written to with any OS install. Wether this is a partition, a separate drive, etc, it won't matter.
If however one was to install windows onto C:, and then change the BIOS boot order to place D:\ (perhaps a slave hard drive) at a higher priority, then that drive will be regarded as the main system drive.
At the same time, the issue is limited to the change between the boot methods between Vista and XP: obviously no amount of hacking about with boot.ini can get NTLDR to load a Vista partition; however, in the OP's case, I believe it would work.
After clearing out C:\ and installing XP, the C:\ drive now has had the Vista boot loader replaced with the standard NTLDR and boot.ini combination. in addition, the XP installer will have discovered the XP install on D:\, and added a appropriate entry into boot.ini for it.
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After clearing out C:\ and installing XP, the C:\ drive now has had the Vista boot loader replaced with the standard NTLDR and boot.ini combination. in addition, the XP installer will have discovered the XP install on D:\, and added a appropriate entry into boot.ini for it.
From his post it is not certain which is the "C" drive and which is the D" drive. We are not sure how XP got to be the D drive. It may already be the first primary drive in the system and got badlyis cast as D. He did not make it clear how it got that way. If he did it, then why does he want to change it?
An issue maybe like this was mentioned in the MS KB.
If he formats the wrong drive, he will lose his data.
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Just doing a new install on the C: partition is NOT going to leave the D: partition intact and bookable. TRUST US
C'mon Geek, justify that statement. Why will the D: partition not be intact, are you suggesting that an install on C: will somehow cripple D:? As for leaving D: bootable, D: already has XP installed so all that's required is to have the ability to point to it. This is done by the installer when a second version of XP is installed on C: and an updated Boot.ini file is written. As the MBR is outside C: the Partition Table remains unchanged when any partition is formatted. Sure I'll trust you but please give some sort of proof for your statements.
After clearing out C:\ and installing XP, the C:\ drive now has had the Vista boot loader replaced with the standard NTLDR and boot.ini combination. in addition, the XP installer will have discovered the XP install on D:\, and added a appropriate entry into boot.ini for it.
Thank you BC_P. That's exactly the situation I found and can confirm that during the install on C: the Boot.ini file was amended to muilti-boot C: and D: As another test I installed Ubuntu on C: and XP on D: then formatted C: and installed another version of XP, the same thing, multi-boot success.
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Alright. we have a Drive with Vista, and a drive with XP installed.
Since they both boot at the moment, it is quite apparent that XP was installed first, and Vista was installed second; otherwise, XP would have replaced the vista boot loader and only XP would boot. Additionally, since they are part of the same partition, the C: drive would be the active partition. Only explicit changes made in disk management or diskpart would swap their positions. However for the sake of argument let us explore all possibilities.
scenario one: Drive C: is system partition. Drive D: is second partition.
Windows Vista is on C:. Windows XP is on D:.
booting consists of loading the Vista Boot loader from C:, which allows the choice of XP or Vista.
How did it get in this scenario?
Windows XP was installed to D:\ first. this saved boot files to the root of the system drive, and wrote the MBR as well.
Installing Vista meant that these files were overwritten. However Vista detected the XP install and saved it's own boot loader files, not only to C:, but also to D:. Note that those boot loader files on D: are only required when selecting the XP partition.
Formatting C: Would render the drive unbootable, even to D:. However, that is not the scenario here. the scenario is formatting C: and then installing XP to that drive.
In this case, although the D:\ drive has some vista boot files (grldr or something), they are unreferenced- they were in fact only used when booting XP from the windows Vista Boot loader that was on C:. in the process of installing XP, the "new" install of XP on C: examines all drives in order to create a multiple boot system. In this case it detects XP on D: and adds appropriate entries to boot.ini on C:.
Booting to D: will remain successful since the boot.ini references the drive using ARC paths, and the ARC paths are used to access appropriate boot loaders on that drive; this is for compatibility reasons with previous NT versions; each NT partition has it's own copy of NTLDR. However since the boot.ini on drive D: does not contain multiple selections, it is skipped and the OS is loaded.
in the imagined scenario where C: and D: are somehow swapped and D: is really the system drive, this still means that XP was installed first to D: and Vista installed second; the only difference is that Vista is being booted from C: as well as D:.The same information applies- although there is more booting information stored on D:, the new XP install will overwrite the Vista MBR and write it's own, meaning these boot files (grldr, bootmgr) are unreferenced. (they are usually started by the boot loader. XP doesn't load them. Vista's Boot loader does).
So no matter what drawn up case you can make with specific configurations of system and secodary partitions with Vista and XP- the order of install will have to be XP first, Vista second. At the same time while wiping the Vista drive WILL render drive D: unbootable, the installation of another OS onto that drive will still recognize the installation and add it to it's own boot.ini.
The confusion here might have stemmed from the difference between the Vista/Win7 and XP boot loaders, which are really only understood at the surface. Sometimes, we forget also that there is a Master boot record that is executed first and foremost, and the code in this MBR can either be the XP version or the Vista version. the XP MBR will execute NTLDR from the system drive. the Vista MBR I believe executes the vista equivalent, grldr, from the system drive. (I also believe that this "grldr" file takes part when a secondary OS is selected.
My particular experience is with my triple-boot laptop, which has XP-32, XP-64, and Vista Ultimate x64. at boot, I can select either "Windows Vista" or "previous version of microsoft windows". the "previous" option displays the very same boot menu I got with XP x64 after install- a text-based display that allowed selection between XP32 and XP 64.
Therefore my conclusion was that the vista boot loader executes the XP boot loader. In this case for the 64-bit edition. the 64-bit editions boot menu listed both the 64-bit edition and the previously installed 32-bit edition, and therefore the selection was displayed.
following the logic presented by the opposition, I might assume that formatting my Vista partition would make both XP 64-bit and XP 32-bit unbootable. And, if I was to leave it blank, that would be the case. However the discussed circumstances here are wether it would work to do just that- and then install XP onto the drive that Vista previously occupied. XP will recognize the existing XP install on D:, and it will create a boot.ini entry to allow selection. (and if not, one can be made manually).
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Dusty: In regards to the drive letters C: and D:, can you tell me how the single hard drive was setup (partition table) ? Did you have two "primary" partitions or one primary partition and one "extended" partition (which contains logical drive for second operating system) ?
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We are wanting to help the OP. -ight?
If he understands the risk, and if he has a backup, he can just try it and see.
Otherwise, the best advice is to just leave it alone.
Both Windows XP and Vista can change the drive letter assignments.
Nobody here and give a guarantee that he will not format the wrong partition.
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Both Windows XP and Vista can change the drive letter assignments.
Not without manual intervention.
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Not without manual intervention.
Are you sure? Better think that over. :P
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Are you sure? Better think that over. :P
Yes.
XP and Vista may refer to the drives by different drive letters but from the perspective of a XP setup disk you don't even see driver letters and even if you did you could tell by the ARC path that is included in the list. therefore formatting the C: Drive with a XP setup disc during install will indeed format the First partition, and even in the extended case where for some reason the setup disk reverses the drive letters for no discernable reason at all the correct primary partition, again, can be determined with the ARC path.
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BC,
Maybe one of us should continue this in a new thread.
We have not got a response from the OP.
He may have left us. :'(
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At any rate to clarify what has transpired here i re-created this scenario on a machine that was out of use.
After installing Vista to C: which was stated and installing XP to another partition i proceeded to wipe C: and install XP as was supposedly done in the tests mentioned.
The fresh install of XP to the C: drive did recognise an existing install of XP during setup...
However it did not automatically add the 2nd install to the boot menu nor could i boot to it in the convential manner...
So i'll stick to my original bone of contention that A) it won't happen automatically...and B) if it in fact does this you are still dealing with at best an unstable dual-boot enviornment.
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The fresh install of XP to the C: drive did recognise an existing install of XP during setup...
However it did not automatically add the 2nd install to the boot menu nor could i boot to it in the convential manner...
And if you "manually" add the 2nd install (previous XP installation) to boot.ini (or use bootcfg within Recovery Console to update the boot.ini) ?
Are you using two primary partitions or one primary and one extended (containing logical disk(s)) ?
Any unexpected drive mappings ? C: drive assigned to latest XP install, D: drive to earler XP install ?
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C: Primary...
D: Extended Logical partiton...
Do i need to do this again ? ?
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well I'll say. Mine was just a thought experiment, though. :P
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Do i need to do this again ? ?
I appreciate the effort but it's up to you. Let your conscious be your guide...
With the results reported by you and Dusty, it's clear to me the manual addition of original XP install on D: to "boot.ini" (of active primary partition) will complete the task. Thank you. --The Lone Haranguer
And if you "manually" add the 2nd install (previous XP installation) to boot.ini (or use bootcfg within Recovery Console to update the boot.ini) ?
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Dusty: In regards to the drive letters C: and D:, can you tell me how the single hard drive was setup (partition table) ? Did you have two "primary" partitions or one primary partition and one "extended" partition (which contains logical drive for second operating system) ?
The Diskmgmt display after XP SP.1 is installed in partition D: is shown below:
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9806/diskmgmtaftersp1ond.jpg)
I ran another trial without the step of booting to D: and formatting C:, just let the Setup program do its thing, and Setup deleted the Windows installed on C: before installing the later version. Following the final install all partition letters were as they should be. This is, after all, just a normal stock-standard multi-booting operation with the oldest OS version installed first. Manual alterations to Boot.ini were not required, Setup made all changes automatically.
I reckon this topic has run its course and hope the OP got something out of it.
Thanks everyone for your input.
D..