Computer Hope
Hardware => Hardware => Topic started by: lights from bredock on July 28, 2014, 06:20:57 AM
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I want a pure sine wave UPS with line interactive or online technology for my 550W active PFC computer power supply.
The computer I will use them with is a Dell Inspiron 545MT mini desktop tower.
Are there any good reputed brands in India who provide pure sine wave UPS with line interactive
or online technology for home/office and home desktop computer use.
I want a pure sine wave UPS between the price of $166 and $333
is it plossible to get one in India, Mumbai. Thank You.
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Curious as to why a standard UPS wont work for you since this is just what looks like a normal off the shelf consumer computer?
I buy mainly APC UPS Battery Backups. APC is to me one of the best out there for quality and protection.
http://www.apc.com/site/products/index.cfm
The only time I ever had to get a specific UPS Battery backup model was when I needed to specify the low voltage threshold for when the UPS was to enable with point of sale equipment in which we had some ingenico credit card terminals that were very sensitive to low voltage and their 120VAC power supplies that make 12VDC would run around 10.5VDC when the grid feeding our store locations were running between 100 and 105 VAC instead of normally around 115VAC. This happened on hot summer days when too many people had the AC units on as well as the area around the store developed and the grid supplying all the homes, businesses, and new large hospital was struggling to maintain it all. I bought a specific APC UPS model that allowed me to go in with Windows software and a cable from the USB port of the computer to the UPS and specify for the UPS to intervene and run off of battery at a higher voltage than lower voltage, so the dips in power that would occur the UPS would kick in even though there still was line power but it was low voltage and the credit card system wouldnt have terminals crashing when people are making purchases. After programming the UPS to the different voltage thresholds I was able to place them under each of the registers, all 43 of them at a cost of about $130 per register USD. The model was a Smart-UPS vs the standard off the shelf UPS which has less features and they were 500VA units, and this was about 7 years ago.
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Since my computer power supply has Active PFC.（PF>0.95 at Full Load） I herd people saying on videos that if your computer power supply has active PFC and when the main AC power goes out and you have a older type of UPS, UPS which provides Stepped approximation to a sinewave, square wave your computer will imediately shut down. I also read that these regular older, square wave, Stepped approximation to a sinewave UPS suytems connected to computers with active PFC power suplies make the computer restart when the mains AC power goes out. Every year where I live there are a few black outs or a situation where there is a compleate loss of mains AC power and the power that I get from the AC is also dirty. So I just dont want to take a chance.
And your apc link does not work. In fact that was the first place I landed at when wanting to buy a UPS and have gone there a number of times before figuring out all this. Thanks.
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I agree with DaveLembke.
Most users of personal computers have little need for a high performance commercial UPS. You can get a solution using parts that are available in the current marketplace.
Look over the products available. a good PFC us desirable, but the the most important for your use. Thee are UPS devices that very fast response time.
Also, if you like to build your own, you can make a custom system with zero response time. You put batteries inside your desktop case to provide transient power.
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As said above, there is no real need for a fancy pure sine wave UPS for a PC - The only stuff I can see about issues with non-pure sine wave ones are random posts on forums, no actual evidence.
The fact is that pretty much any good quality, modern PSU will be Active PFC, companies will not sell UPSs that cannot power a regular, modern PC. Just focus on getting a good UPS from a reputable manufacturer, if it does not work you can always return it as it is clearly not fit for purpose.
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Thanks
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Todays UPS's are really good and the higher end Smart and Online Models give you features that you can configure to set the thresholds etc. Unless you really need this for super sensitive to voltage dip electronics, I'd give a good quality consumer base model UPS a test. I have used base model UPS's for almost 20 years and never had any problems with systems rebooting or shutting down with them, unless the battery in them has died after 5 years and when the switch over happens in milliseconds the battery which is dead is unable to take on the load. The good thing is that modern UPS's will give you error conditions letting you know that a battery is junk inside so you dont have to find out the hard way when there is a power outage. Which reminds me I have 2 UPS's that I need to find replacement batteries for which both died at 4 and 5 years of use as i sharpie markered the installation dates on them to keep track of age ;D Expect to have to replace this about once every 3 to 6 years. They seem to last longer actually in environments where the power has problems and they drain and charge frequently, while environments where the batteries are constantly topped off, the batteries build memory and go stale and die sooner than later. Since you have power concerns a UPS in your home or business should cycle through a drain and charge cycle and hopefully last you. Buying a good brand like APC will also ensure that the life of the UPS is 3 to 6 years vs dying sooner due to low quality lead acid gel batteries used.
The good name brand UPS's come with warranties that protect equipment that are properly connected to them from lightning etc.
More info here at this link which shows various types of UPS protection and design. The better ones allow for you to specify threshold of when to intervene with battery power etc, but they come at a premium and may have to be special ordered. I'd get a basic UPS and start with that to save money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply#Double-conversion_.2F_online
Lastly .... be sure to make sure the battery is connected inside of the unit before use. Most come with the batteries disconnected requiring you to connect them to activate them, If you want to test it, you can plug in a lamp that is less than 100 watts into the battery backup side of the UPS after the UPS has been given about 8 hrs to charge and turn lamp on, and then unplug the UPS from the wall and the lamp will remain lit if the UPS is working correctly. Its very rare that they dont when purchased, and most models will give a tone or other warning indication if you have failed to connect the battery to the UPS because without the connection there is no backup power available.
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For what it is worth... here is a link to a discussion about a PSU with integrated battery backup. Yes, there is such thing.
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=826441
But it is not very effective and/or very hard to do.
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I have already red this same UPS wekepedia articale and I went to your link arstechnica.com from there I went to dansdata.com the DIY article. It is nice and informative. Thanks.
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I went to http://www.dansdata.com/diyups.htm (http://www.dansdata.com/diyups.htm) the DIY article. It is nice and informative. Thanks. the DIY article. It is nice and informative. Thanks.
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FYI: Sine wive is NOT recommended for modern PC power supplies.
I think this post is credible and agrees with the general theory of electronics power supplies.
Some PSUs with Active PFC will not work properly with a UPS that outputs a simulated sine wave when operating on battery power. The UPS will usually fail to switch over to battery operation or it will make a bunch of audible squeals then report an overload or error condition and shut itself down. There's no way of telling if your specific power supply will cause this type of behavior unless you know of someone who has the same power supply as you and has tested it with a simulated sine wave UPS. There are the rare PSU test reviews that will actually test the PSU with a simulated sine wave UPS.
From a post on Tom's Hardware.
:)
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Actually the real problem is with the 230VAC regions. GO here check this thread out it is an eye opner http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964 (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964). Thanks.
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Actually the real problem is with the 230VAC regions. GO here check this thread out it is an eye opner http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964 (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964). Thanks.
You are seriously overthinking this. I don't see any definitive answer in your thread. Almost all good power supplies nowadays are ActivePFC, wouldn't you think that that means that almost all UPSs are now designed to be able to run them without issues?
Just go out and buy a good quality UPS, if it doesn't work for whatever reason, return it since if it can't power an average PC, it's not fit for purpose!
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You should go and read the whole thread properly I provided in the link. Then you will understand the real problem. It is a eleven page thread you should atleast read eight pages from it.
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Exactly is is an 11 page thread, I do not have time to read all of it! From what I can see in it however it does not seem to explain that this is an actual issue. If you can find a post in that thread that properly backs up your argument that an average UPS is not capable of powering an Active PFC power supply then I would gladly read it. I have certainly not heard of people having issues with average UPSs powering Active PFC PSUs.
What you are basically saying is that most modern UPSs are not capable of powering the majority of modern PCs - Surely common sense would dictate that companies that build UPSs would design them to power Active PFC PSUs.
ActivePFC is not a super rare feature that only your PSU and a few others have, pretty much any good power supply on the market today is ActivePFC!
I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about here, if you really feel as though you need a "pure sine wave UPS with line interactive or online technology" then buy one!
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camerongray, You are right. For most of us PFC is of little concern. Big industrial users of electrical power worry about it.
For what it is worth, here is an article that claims it does matter for computer PSU. It is short and to the point. But IMHO it is not a big thing.
http://us.tdk-lambda.com/ftp/other/pfc_switchmode_powersupplies.pdf
ummary
As previously mentioned, power line harmonics
are created whenever the line current is not a
pure sinewave, as is the case with a switchmode
power supply’s input, which tend to have ‘pulsed’
currents (Fig 3). Measuring power line harmonics
is a mathematical means to describe a complex
waveform’s power factor by resolving it into a
fundamental frequency and its many harmonics.
The harmonic currents do not contribute to the
output load power, but cause unwanted heating
in the wall socket, wiring, circuit breaker, and
distribution transform
That is hogwash.
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The thread clearly explains with real copy pasted emails replies from Silverstone and explanation from other people stating that the problem is "not Active PFC" but the "voltage VAC" of the "region" you are in. In the "120V region" it is alright to use a UPS with any wave form be it square, stepped approximation to sine wave etc. The non sine wave UPS will still be a little "hard" on the PSU but as it is a 120V environment this configuration will not cause any immediate harm and is alright to run the PSU for short periods of time from the UPS battery.
Silverstone explanation on page two eplains how a UPS with voltage at top of square wave of 470V damages PSU with bulk capacitors of 400V.
But the "240V region" requires that you use a "pure sine wave" UPS with ANY computer PSU "at all times" in order to be safe. As the chances of damage to the PSU conected to a non sine wave UPS in the 240V region are much greater. It can even cause immediate damage to computer PSU.
Silverstone also says in the thread that "computer power supplies are not designed for non sine wave input" it is not healthy for them.
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Then surely if you buy a UPS that is designed for 240v then it will be fine since it was designed with that in mind...
For the record, I live in a 240v country and use a regular IBM UPS (Made by APC) and it works fine, probably since it was designed to work on 240v. As I've said countless times before, reputable companies will not release a UPS that is not suitable for its intended purpose (i.e. to work in a 240v country).
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What I am saying is that the UPS wave form should also be taken into consideration when buying one and a pure sine wave UPS is recomended for the contries with 240VAC . Even well known companies like APC and other companies flood the market in the 240VAC contries with consumer level UPS which are not pure sine wave and this is not always safe for desktop computers used in home/home office envirements and desktops which are used for gaming and personal use. Cyber Power is the first company to provide a whole series of consumer level UPS systems with pure sine wave.
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So what you are saying is that world famous companies like APC are selling UPSs in 240v countries that are not safe to run a PC off of? I dare say that APC likely know a lot more about what they are doing than you do after reading a few forum threads...
I am not trying to argue with you, Just to and buy a Pure Sine Wave UPS!
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Exactly these well known UPS companies are selling UPSs in 240V contries that are actually not compatible with the computer PSUs. APC shure knows a lot more about it's products and it's company but after reading the thread what I can see is that the APC India product line for home/home office which is the Back-UPS pro uses only the stepped approximation to a sine wave. Their small/mediom business product line up uses sine wave but they are pretty expensive and bulky as well.
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Exactly these well known UPS companies are selling UPSs in 240V contries that are actually not compatible with the computer PSUs. APC shure knows a lot more about it's products and it's company but after reading the thread what I can see is that the APC India product line for home/home office which is the Back-UPS pro uses only the stepped approximation to a sine wave. Their small/mediom business product line up uses sine wave but they are pretty expensive and bulky as well.
Then spend more money to get a pure sine wave one if that makes you happy! APC know a lot more about UPSs than you do, their UPSs in 240v countries will work fine, otherwise noone would buy them!
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Say what you want but when you get a loud screeching nouse from your computer PSU when on UPS battery you sure would not want to plug your PSU with that UPS.
Here are the videos that give the explanation as well -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViGZ7hyAyBk&list=FLypBqYSz9t64AcEVu54-9Ww&index=4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViGZ7hyAyBk&list=FLypBqYSz9t64AcEVu54-9Ww&index=4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIW0Jh-K0A
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Say what you want but when you get a loud screeching nouse from your computer PSU when on UPS battery you sure would not want to plug your PSU with that UPS.
- No, I wouldn't plug my PSU into a UPS that made it screech
- None of my PSUs screech when running on UPS power (Probably because I only use decent PSUs)
Just stop trying to argue like you are some sort of UPS expert because you read a video - Go and buy yourself a UPS already, you are just wasting your time here!
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Say what you want and you dont read videos you watch videos. I did not just waste my time here "I have given some valuable information" out here for others who will be willing to refer to it and find it useful and then can protect their computer PSUs from potential damage from incompatible UPSs.
No offfence please.
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The Original Poster says that he is offering information that is useful to readers of this forum. May I suggest the information would be much more useful if it would stick to factual information, and not advertisements. Some claims that have been made are not supported by actual empirical evidence.
Granted, sine wave power is preferred in a system where Power Factor Correction is present. But the allegation that older UPS designs damage modern power supplies has not been fully established.
Think about it. The older UPS design has been in use for many years and its shortcomings have been known for many years. It wasn't just yesterday that engineers discovered what a sine wave really is.
The major makers of small UPS now offer sine wave output. Some issue was raised about how pure the sine wave is. The only real issue is, is it is sine wave or not. The purity of the wave is of little concern, what matters is the shape of the wave and how that impacts other equipment. Also, the term square wave is misleading. The waveform output of older UPS machines is more of a flattened sine wave, but not really a square wave. Nevertheless, some active PFC power supplies for desktop computers do not have any trouble using a flattened square wave as the input power source. One might reason that the design of the power supply could be an important factor.
The Original Poster did not provide clear, concise and factual references to to support his point of view. He started out asking a question and then turned this into a debate about what he perceived to be an important issue. Some on this forum wish to point out that the ideas of the OP are not universally true. Many commercial and home users with older design UPS boxes to not have to upgrade to a new design. In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
While this is been a very interesting thread and there have been some provocative arguments here, the conclusion is not definitive. So overall, this post has some information that might be useful, but could have been presented in a clear and concise manner. Instead of just bantering back and forth with quotations from other forms or from commercial advertisements.
If anybody wants to do their own research, he can pick out a favorite search engine and enter a question about sine wave uninterrupted power supplies. There are a number of posts and articles to the effect that you don't really need it unless you need it. Is that ambiguous? Yes, it is ambiguous. Because the answers you get on not just one-sided.
End of my rant.
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I got an email from silverstoneteck regarding the type of UPS to use with my Silverstone ST55F-G PFC power supply I am copying that email with some other emails from Silverstoneteck engineer in Taiwan from the jonnyguru forum thread and pasting them here.There is also a bit of conversation comming in with the emails but I think that will better explain the emails. I am also posting the conclusion explanation excluding my email of all the emails from the same thread. I think that should make up for the factual references. I am also posting a link to the thread again - http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964 (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964)
First one is to me
Support <[email protected]>
Aug 4 (2 days ago)
to me
Dear Sir
Thank you very much for purchasing SilverStone.
Sorry that we didn’t have UPS product that we
could only suggest you choose the UPS which is
“on-line” and “sine wave” output. That will have
higher compatibility with computer power supply
"It is fine if you living in US and used 120V input in your OP700, even by a not pure sineware UPS."
This is of course good news for those of us in the US. This is direct confirmation from Silverstone that if you're in a country that uses a 120V standard, you CAN use non sine wave UPSs without damaging their power supplies. This is the "bottom line" answer that I was looking for.
He then addressed the question I had asked about the "buzzing" I hear from the power supply when the UPS is on battery:
"And that sounds you heard from OP700 when you cut the wall power to the UPS is only appear in switch AC input power.
That is PSU primary bulk capacitor recharge, it is no problem.
If that sounds is appear continue, please stop used your OP700 and contact us."
I'm a bit unclear exactly what he's saying here. On one hand he said it's no problem, but he also said that the sound is from the capacitor charging, which I would "think" would imply that it would be a momentary sound rather than a constant buzz that only stopped when the UPS switched back to wall power. When he says that the sound should not "continue," is he saying that the buzzing should not continue after the unit has switched back to wall power, or does he mean that the sound should only happen briefly even when on battery, and that it should NEVER be constant? I'd be curious to hear feedback on this from the users here that understand the technical aspects of this.
He went on to say:
"It is so difficulties to clear this responsibility between UPS and PSU of UPS not support sineware outputs will damage PSU when input 240V.
Even a UPS mainstream company like APC, that products will not all support sineware.
Anyway, there is not chance to solve this issue by PSU due to too many components must be upgrade.
But UPS just need to extend PWM duty cycle that top voltage of square wave can be reduced under 400V.
It is easiest way to resolve this issue."
If I'm reading this correctly, he's saying that this issue is only a problem in a 240V system, but that it's difficult to address in the power supply, and that it's easier to address this issue in the UPS.
Thanks again for the feedback here,
A couple more followups from Silverstone Taiwan:
"it is for all PSU will “buzzing” not unique to your OP700.
Actually, only my technical angel, it is fine but no good to use for any PSU with a non sine ware UPS.
If any PSU normality input a non sine ware (when you usually cut the wall power to the UPS),
Maybe it will effect that PSU life."
I have no idea what "technical angel" means (obviously a translation anomaly) but this statement seemed to contradict the previous response saying that using a non sine wave UPS was "fine" in the US. I asked for further clarification and received this response:
"1) If your PSU input voltage = 120V is FINE to work, if your PSU input voltage = 230V will damage PSU IMMEDIATELY.
2) PSU is not design for NON sineware input, it is not health.
Just like smoke is not health for people, but if smoking, people will NOT dead IMMEDIATELY.
If your city isn’t power cut every day and every hours, that damage for you is very small.
3) This is the same situation for all of PSU even not SilverStone."
So... the bottom line appears to be that non sine wave power is technically not good for PSU's, but that taken in moderation, it should not be "that" bad of a problem, and that in general it's fine to use a non sine wave UPS as long as it's in a 120V environment. It also appears that he is saying that this is an issue for ALL power supplies, not just Active PFC power supplies, which is interesting given that this entire line of questioning was originally specific to Active PFS power supplies.
Is this how other people interpret these responses? I'm still very interested in hearing other opinions on this information.
A few more followups/confirmations from Silverstone:
1) Does your information apply to just "Active PFC" PSUs, or to ALL PSUs, including those WITHOUT Active PFC circuits.
Answer: Both Active PFC and NON Active PFC have this issue.
2) Would it be okay to run the PSU on the battery (non sine wave power) for 20 to 30 minutes in a row every month or two, or is this too much?
Answer: It is OK, you can believe all of SilverStone products have warranty and we will offer this service.
3) My APC unit runs an "Automatic Diagnostic Test" at regular periods which switches the unit to battery power for several seconds. I don't know how often this happens, but if it happens more than once a day is it a problem?
Answer: No problem.
So, to sum up, the Silverstone engineer confirmed that there is nothing specific to Silverstone Active PFC power supplies that makes running them off of non sine wave power a problem. The only problems that exist apply to both Active PFC and NON Active PFC PSUs, and as long as you're on a 120V system, it is not enough of an issue to be concerned about it.
I'm am still a bit unclear about the implications of his answer to #2 above, but I think that this is due to the translation more than anything, and he did specifically say that it's "okay." The bottom line is that Silverstone does NOT make any recommendations against running their PSUs off of non sine wave UPSs.
Originally Posted by Big-G View Post
Is this the crux of the matter for a 240 V , 50 Hz environment ?
1. It is not safe to pair an APFC power supply with a simulated sine Wave UPS , as it would damage the power supply immediately.
2. It is safe to pair a power supply which is not PFC , with a simulated sine wave UPS
The short answer is "no" -- this is not the general conclusion of the thread. There are three important points to keep in mind here.
First, the only confirmed conclusions offered above (i.e. information that was not just theoretical in nature) came from Silverstone, so things could possibly be different with different manufacturers.
Second, according to the Silverstone rep the issue with over-voltage in 240V envirnments actually had nothing to do with Active PFC. The problems described pertained to ANY power supply when using a non-sine wave UPS in a 240V environment.
Lastly, it's not necessarily true that damage would happen "immediately" -- this would depend on the specific power supply.
The conclusion of the information offered by the Silverstone was that regardless of the presence or type of PFC, a non-sine wave UPS should not be used in a 240V environment at ALL. We can't say for sure that this will effect any power supply from any manufacturer, but the Silverstone rep seemed to indicate this.
The bottom line is that if you want to be safe, you should only use true sine wave UPS if you're in a 240V environment. Whether you should use an Active PFC unit appears to be a separate question, and I honestly don't know the answer to this, but from what I've gathered in my research, other than specific Enermax units, you CAN use Active PFC PSUs with non-sine wave UPSs. It's considered a bit "hard" on the PSU, but it should not be damaging for the short periods of time that the UPS is being used.
That's the overal conclusion that I've come to.
Larry
Reply With Quote
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He then addressed the question I had asked about the "buzzing" I hear from the power supply when the UPS is on battery
I thought you were planning on buying a UPS yet now you seem to be talking about owning one.
All this thread has taught me now is to not expect much from Silverstone's support since I can barely understand their responses...
I'm out.
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"it is for all PSU will “buzzing” not unique to your OP700.
Actually, only my technical angel, it is fine but no good to use for any PSU with a non sine ware UPS.
If any PSU normality input a non sine ware (when you usually cut the wall power to the UPS),
Maybe it will effect that PSU life."
Yer putting an awful lot of credibility into a service site that cannot even spell...
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General Reference:
List of World-Wide UPS manufacturers
http://www.upsci.com/UPS_manufacturers_brands.htm
http://www.globalsources.com/manufacturers/UPS.html
http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/byP/ups/byB/manufacturers/byN/byName.shtml
Anybody can browse the company web sites and find material that is not indexed.among the top 100 hits of a search engine. Here is just one gem:
http://falconups.com/pdf-04-2004/sbs_ups_tutorial.pdf
It is in plain English from a California company.Recommended reading.
So, if you want a UPS, you have lots of choices. :)
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Thank You.
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Thanks