Computer Hope
Software => Computer viruses and spyware => Topic started by: Semysig on July 04, 2009, 05:54:12 AM
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I have but one computer at this point and I want to be able to go to risky sites without endangering "safe" partitions. IOW, be able to reformat the risked one at will with an image, but not have to do the whole darn thing or endanger data on the others.
Obviously, an MBR virus could jam me, but if I can protect from that, can I do this?
If so, HOW do I get near 100% protection from an MBR infection?
Also, I just read that just copying an infected file can get you! I thought that was impossible! I thought you had to run it, and it had to be executable - or some cursed M$ "doc" type file that basically is executable but most people don't know it.
Lastly, the rare JPG virus. IIRC, it only infects you if you run a particular M$ app to view it, but I forgot which. It's the classic where *I* dont, but I'm at risk from others doing it and getting other files from them.
I hope somebody answers this soon cuz I very shortly have to reformat and reinstall completely. It'd really suck if I don't get the very likely malware off here and have to do it again. Jeeeeez I can't stand reinstalling Winblows and all the apps!
I can't even tell you how much I hate it!
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I have but one computer at this point and I want to be able to go to risky sites without endangering "safe" partitions.
You can't. You need to run a good AV package with good Malware protection, and a good firewall.
Anything you allow to run inside of that is your own fault. I will not teach you how to breach security and run porn.
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What out of what I said has anything to do with porn or breaching security?????
What would it matter if it was porn, it isn't illegal.
By risky site I meant anything that might try to "infect" you.
You should know that many unscrupulous web sites are malware spreading scams.
The only way to know that it was unscrupulous would be that you haven't heard of the
company/organization before.
Obviously only going to sites you have heard of would be crippling.
Obviously I am running an AV/spyware detection program.
You should know that there is a lag between a new virus and a security update.
I want to have one partition/windows installation that I use solely for going to possible infection risk sites. I would hide the other infectable partitions from that one and vice a versa. IOW , I want to have a dirty partition that does not infect clean partitions.
I want to be able to go ANYWHERE on the web.
Will the hiding of the clean partition protect it from the dirty partition??
Each will have it's own installation of windows and it will have a boot manager that will select between them.
If this will not work, will a clean boot CD with an AV program on it used to scan the drive, but using a virus signature file that's on the hard drive protect me??
Basically I would scan after using the dirty partition. The AV data file would be on a separate data partition.
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I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just stating that you can't unless you run something like Linux.
Everything else including MAC is insecure. So unless you want to jump through hoops and run amazing cryptography, you can't.
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I use Sandboxie. http://www.sandboxie.com/
Sandboxie runs your programs in an isolated space which prevents them from making permanent changes to other programs and data in your computer.
Or you can use a Virtual Environment. http://www.virtualbox.org/
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He wants multiple Installations of his OS. One of which he will use on-line, and another mostly off-line; that is, his important data on the "off-line" partition.
His question is wether the On-line partition can infect the off-line one.
If you don't assign a drive letter to the "clean" partition as seen from the "dirty" partition, then I doubt any virus would infect it. If you access files on the "clean" parition from your dirty partition then you'll risk spreading file infector type viruses from the dirty partition to the clean partition.
As an alternative, you could setup a guest OS install within virtual PC, which would be even better then two partitions.
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I think Virtual Box is something that would fit the bill... http://www.virtualbox.org/
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I think Virtual Box is something that would fit the bill... http://www.virtualbox.org/
I didn't spend a lot of time looking at that, how is it different than Virtual PC?
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Windows Virtual PC?
The difference is that the only supported Microsoft Windows Virtual PC is available in Windows 7. Virtual Box from Java (Sun Microsystems) is Microsoft Windows Virtual PC only updated. Microsoft has let everyone use their version of Virtual PC but fails to tell them that they stopped supporting it in 2007 when they sold it to Sun Microsystems.
Another great tool abandoned and then left open to exploit by Microsoft. See here. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/
Windows XP Mode and Windows Virtual PC Beta, available on Windows 7 Professional, Windows 7 Ultimate, and Windows 7 Enterprise, provides you the capability to run multiple Windows environments, such as Windows XP Mode, from your Windows 7 desktop.
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I'm not sure what you are referring to. I may have misunderstood you, but I run Virtual PC on an XP box as well.
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Windows Virtual PC?
From Microsoft?
*I edited the above post.
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From Microsoft?
*I edited the above post.
Yes, it runs quite well on XP x64, as well as Vista. I have numerous OS's running on it.
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Virtual PC was originally developed for the Macintosh and released by Connectix in June 1997. The first version of Virtual PC designed for Windows-based systems, version 4.0, was released in June 2001. Connectix sold versions of Virtual PC bundled with a variety of guest operating systems, including Windows, OS/2, and Red Hat Linux. As virtualization's importance to enterprise users became clear, Microsoft took interest in the sector and acquired Virtual PC and Virtual Server (unreleased at the time) from Connectix in February 2003.
Under agreement with Connectix, Innotek GmbH (makers of VirtualBox and now part of Sun Microsystems) ported version 5.0 to run on an OS/2 host. This version also included guest extensions for OS/2 guests, which could run on Windows, OS/2 or Mac OS X hosts using Virtual PC versions 5, 6 or 7. A new version of the guest extensions was later included with Microsoft's Virtual PC 2004.
On July 12, 2006, Microsoft released Virtual PC 2004 for Windows as a free product, but the Mac version was not made free. The Windows version may be downloaded here
. The equivalent version for Mac, version 7, was the final version of Virtual PC for Mac.
Virtual PC 2007 was released only for the Windows platform, with public beta testing beginning October 11, 2006, and production release on February 19, 2007. It added support for hardware virtualization, viewing virtual machines on multiple monitors and support for Windows Vista as both host and guest. (The Windows Aero interface is disabled on Windows Vista guests due to limitations of the emulated video hardware; however, Aero effects can be rendered by connecting to the guest via Remote Desktop Connection from an Aero-enabled Vista host.) On May 15, 2008, Microsoft released Virtual PC 2007 Service Pack 1, which added support for both Windows XP SP3 and Vista SP1 as guest and host OSes, as well as Windows Server 2008 Standard as a guest OS.
A hotfix rollup for Virtual PC 2007 SP1, released February 20, 2009, solved networking issues and enhanced the maximum screen resolution to 2048×1920 (32-bit), enabling 16:9 resolutions such as 1920×1080.
Virtual Machine Additions for Linux are available at the Microsoft Download Center, but are officially supported only in Virtual Server.
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I may be a bit off on my information but the Java Virtual Box is an updated version of Virtual PC. Microsoft is bringing Virtual PC back in Windows 7. Just look at the homepage. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/
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I may be a bit off on my information but the Java Virtual Box is an updated version of Virtual PC. Microsoft is bringing Virtual PC back in Windows 7. Just look at the homepage. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/
How is Java Virtual Box an updated version, will it actually allow me to run a completely independant OS on top of my boot OS?
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It's not really an "updated version" but, rather a fork from the original source as Virtual PC.
I can't find any product, specifically called, "Java Virtual Box" But Sun Does own Virtual Box, which is based off the same source as Virtual PC; kind of like, how PC-DOS and MS-DOS had a common ancestor.
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Hold on. I think I'm talking about two different things here. Sorry.
Microsoft was using the name Microsoft Java Virtual Machine after they sold the Java platform to Sun. A lawsuit followed and MS removed the word Java from the name and continued with using Microsoft Virtual Machine.
Sorry about that. I should have done all of my digging at once. :-\
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MS NEVER owned the name Java.
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The Java technology has changed owners a few times. Microsoft (or IBM) are the ones who pioneered it. Sun took it and made it what it is today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine
The Microsoft Java Virtual Machine was a proprietary Java Virtual Machine computer program from Microsoft. It was first made available for Internet Explorer version 3 so that users could run Java applets when browsing on the World Wide Web.
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Yes, but it was never owned by MS, and Virtual PC allows you to run alternate OS's. I'm not sure that I understand what you are trying to say, can you please rephrase it?
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Technology is owned by someone... right?
What am I unclear on?
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He wants multiple Installations of his OS. One of which he will use on-line, and another mostly off-line; that is, his important data on the "off-line" partition.
His question is wether the On-line partition can infect the off-line one.
If you don't assign a drive letter to the "clean" partition as seen from the "dirty" partition, then I doubt any virus would infect it. If you access files on the "clean" parition from your dirty partition then you'll risk spreading file infector type viruses from the dirty partition to the clean partition.
As an alternative, you could setup a guest OS install within virtual PC, which would be even better then two partitions.
Yes, you've got it exactly :) That's what I meant.
So, if I'm getting this right, you COULD hide the "dirty" partition using a boot mgr and it'd be cool. One Q on that though, I seem to remember reading something about a Hide flag vs an "actual" hide. The flag was supposedly not totally secure on this or that, but I forget exactly what the issue was. Would say, BootIt or Partition Magic do the full hide?
Oh, and a little off subj, which proggy is better in your opinion?
I've heard polar opposites on opinions. In my personal exp, Norton when down the toilet after the last DOS ver of Norton Utilities. AFAIK PM was bought by them.
It's possible PM had some "break" in the quality, like before X ver good and after crap.
Now, as far as the file infectability on a 3rd partition, would data files be safe from the "dirty" partition? Used to be nice and simple, executable was executable and everything else was not. Now it seems to blur a little. I know there was the scarey JPG virus a ways back, but IIRC it only got you if you used an M$ prog to view the pic. All others were immune (shocker huh).
Anyway, my data partition(s) would have huge newsgroup data files, tons of jpgs, AVI, M4V, email datafiles (but they're Pegasus Mail :)
Obviously, I need to share some stuff between the dirty and clean or I'd have to do something insane like save to USB drive dirty, scan with AV running clean, then access. UG!
How much should I worry!
I have a friend who DOES worry that much, heheh.
But then, he believes there not only isn't global warming, it's cooling!
AFAIK, he's not on crack either! ;)
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Hold on. I think I'm talking about two different things here. Sorry.
Microsoft was using the name Microsoft Java Virtual Machine after they sold the Java platform to Sun. A lawsuit followed and MS removed the word Java from the name and continued with using Microsoft Virtual Machine.
Sorry about that. I should have done all of my digging at once. :-\
err
MS never owned Java, they licensed it from Sun, who started a project they called "oak" that was supposed to be a generic and easy way to program appliances, such as coffee makers and refridgerators and so forth (I think it was more aimed at the manufacturers, rather then the end user, which is to say, they intended to sell the VM to the manufacturers, who could use it instead of a set of hard-coded IC's that they usually used for features such as the temperature control and so forth. I can't remember exactly what happened, but it ended up being a viable language for more then just programming simple appliances.
ahh, here it is:
http://www.java.com/en/javahistory/timeline.jsp
the confusion with MS and Java is that their license was revoked by Sun after Microsoft Visual J++, and the WFC and the various other bastardizations that MS made to their VM, which ended up making it possible that a Java Program would run on the MS VM but not on any others. (namely, the integrated support for COM). Since MS was no longer able to create anything using Java technology, I believe they transformed J++ into Visual Basic .NET, speaking of which one might surmise that the whole Java License thing could have sparked MS to create .NET in the first place- they are both virtual machines, after all, the Java VM and the CLR...
not to mention the whole thing get's even more confused when you have companies like netscape producing completely different technologies (LiveScript) and then renaming them based on the latest craze (which is how we got JavaScript.... JavaScript and Java are so unrelated the mere fact that the name of one is used in another is utterly ridiculous. Java runs in a VM on a client and is a strongly-typed, purely object oriented language that is compiled to bytecode. JavaScript is a Client-side scripting language that barely supports the basics of object access, let alone the creation of objects (real objects- not this IDispatchEx crap- I mean, Objects have VTABLE's, *censored*!)
woops. sorry. went off on a tangent there.
for hiding the partition- there aren't any flags to set- you merely don't give the clean partition a drive letter in the Infectable OS. basically- think of the infectable OS as completely untrusted from the viewpoint of the Clean OS. if the infecteable OS cannot access the clean partition it simply cannot infect it... (although, as you said, you'd still be susceptible to a MBR virus)
if you use a third partition to store data; any data/executables on that partition can be infected if that partition is accessible from the "infectable" OS. for example, if it got infected with Virut/Sality, then chances are any installers, programs, WMV files, HTML files, etc you had on the data drive would be infected. running any of these from teh "Clean" OS could easily infect it, especially if virus protection was only kept on the "infectable" machine and you don't access the net via the clean parittion at all. This would leave you with two infected OS's and a need to reinstall and then check all your data files.
I have a friend who DOES worry that much, heheh.
But then, he believes there not only isn't global warming, it's cooling!
Well... maps recovered from sea-faring civilizations in the 1300-1400's showed rivers and lakes on the surface of Antarctica. Interesting stuff to ponder... how did they map it? supposedly nobody went to Antarctica until much later; but it kind of goes to show that we cannot assume when their was a first time for anything, I guess.
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Thanks BC. Although personally in examples like this, since MS could pretty much do with it as they pleased, I think the difference between license and ownership is a thin line.
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I think, "license" as it pertains to say licensing a technology from another company is different then the more consumer-based use of the term for licensing software- but they are definitely similar- with a copy of windows or most software, for example, your really paying for the license to use the software, rather then the software itself. Since, in actuality you can do whatever you wished with the contents of the CD, I think that in a very basic way you "own" the CD and it's contents.
I think, the license, more or less pertains to the source code and related libraries and so forth; and in the case of the Java VM, Sun had specific licensing requirements that basically said that the licensee could do whatever they pleased with their VM, as long as it adhered to a specific set of standards, most of which were in place to make sure that the Virtual Machines were consistent across platforms. For example, All VM's implement garbage collection, because it's part of the specification; However, within that limit the creators of the VM could do what they pleased to implement that garbage collection; for example, many VMs use something called "mark and sweep" which goes through the list of objects in memory, and marks those that are unused; then goes through again and disposes of those objects that were marked. Others, for example, the Microsoft VM did this, if I recall, was called "Stop and copy" and was pretty similar, however, instead of going through twice, the objects are looped through just once, and all active objects are copied to a new memory location, the old one is deallocated, and the new one copied back into it's place. this method is faster but more memory intensive (heh, MS always goes for the faster but more memory consuming options...)
In a way, it's similar to the Patent on the GIF/LZW file format that is held my Compuserve/Unisys; a license. which allows you to implement the algorithm legally, is prohibitively expensive, but it really isn't that hard to implement the code; it uses LZW compression, which is a very common and well documented format; basically the patent covers how the file is organized rather then how it is compressed, which is a kind of lame thing to patent. it would be like patenting a living room layout and then charging people who used that layout a "licensing fee".
The way I like to think of it, is that, Owning it, is when you have, and legally obtained, the source code to the product. licensing the product usually means that the company gives you precompiled OBJ files that you can link into your program.
Of course this line is blurred when the licensee is actually given a license for the actual source code. I believe Russia has the source code for windows to meet some sort of esoteric government rule regulating software; but does this mean that Russia owns windows? Well, not really. They just wanted it probably to make sure there wasn't any anti-communist stuff embedded in it, not to modify it.
I added that "obtained legally" bit for obvious reasons; take the Half-Life 2 Source code leak; it was obtained illegally; but without that clause it would fit under the definition of ownership.
Another definition is who wrote it, which, IMO is the fairest of all, but is too cumbersome to implement. Big companies that have thousands of employees usually have their employees sign a contract which basically signs over anything they write programming-wise to be owned by the company; this includes stuff they write at home. (In my opinion this is dangerously close to breaching some form of human right, (freedom to... express themselves? I don't know... just seems odd). This means that all the source is owned by the company rather then the original writer of the source, which also, seems fair since the company in general paid them to write the program/module.
The real issue with such a setup is when the same programmer writes a utility or small program for public consumption. Before they are able to release it, they literally need to get their own source code given to them, since, because of the aforementioned agreement the company owns it. In general this is to avoid, for example, a company releasing a program, and then one of the employees releasing a competing program that uses portions of the companies code (which may include the work of their co-workers); however because of the wide coverage of the contract a company could practically silence all the work of a programmer except for that done for the company. (the programmer can of course release them anonymously)
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Hey BC.
Doesn't it seem like every time we start a conversation about Java + Microsoft we end up learning more than we want to. :rofl:
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woops. sorry. went off on a tangent there.
for hiding the partition- there aren't any flags to set- you merely don't give the clean partition a drive letter in the Infectable OS. basically- think of the infectable OS as completely untrusted from the viewpoint of the Clean OS. if the infecteable OS cannot access the clean partition it simply cannot infect it... (although, as you said, you'd still be susceptible to a MBR virus)
if you use a third partition to store data; any data/executables on that partition can be infected if that partition is accessible from the "infectable" OS. for example, if it got infected with Virut/Sality, then chances are any installers, programs, WMV files, HTML files, etc you had on the data drive would be infected. running any of these from teh "Clean" OS could easily infect it, especially if virus protection was only kept on the "infectable" machine and you don't access the net via the clean parittion at all. This would leave you with two infected OS's and a need to reinstall and then check all your data files.
Well... maps recovered from sea-faring civilizations in the 1300-1400's showed rivers and lakes on the surface of Antarctica. Interesting stuff to ponder... how did they map it? supposedly nobody went to Antarctica until much later; but it kind of goes to show that we cannot assume when their was a first time for anything, I guess.
I wouldn't totally doubt they got to Antarctica since we know some Norse dude found America way before Columbus. If it WAS warm there, they coulda done it I guess.
My deal with the warming is all about the ice cores taken.
Shows the atmospheric content up to 600K yrs ago.
If it was high, coulda been warm. It goes in big 1000yr+ cycles.
FYI, did yall know there was 60% more oxygen content in the air in dino times?
Apparently that explains why everything was so huge. Always wondered about that myself.
There's my tangent back at ya, heheh.
By data partition and non-executables, I consider html, all web scripting, doc, wmv, and a couple other M$-made tragedies. If those are out, would TRUELY data only files be safe or are there viruses that alter them.. I guess just to trash them, as they couldn't run any code thru them?
Looks like the answer to the Q is not exactly a cross partition virus could get you with this setup, but a MBR could infect that which affects all?
No way to protect that other than run AV on all OS partitions? I plan to do that, but there is the lag time issue as with all malware.
I haven't heard of any MBR virs in a long time, but didn't somebody say they were resurging? Hows the dmg they do these days rate as far as virs go?
I think my move should be to reinstall everything from clean M$ CD, then pull M$ updates, then the AV update, burn boot CD, scan everything on the backed up drive(s), then scan the whole F-ing dirty partition with the latest update every time I switch to the clean one.
Guess I better keep it small! Man, I need to comps like my friend does. Grrr.
It was sooooo nice back in BBS days when you could just scan every file you dl'd and every floppy you put in, and you were good to go :(
Cursed web! ;)
BTW, how about we separate out the Java posts, the specific virus prob posts, and whatever else into separate threads?
I'm exempting me and you about Antarctica though ;>
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That makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the information guys, you just schooled me. 8)