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Author Topic: Chinesse internet traffic "detour  (Read 13919 times)

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truenorth

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    Chinesse internet traffic "detour
    « on: November 27, 2010, 12:46:02 PM »
    Some of you may be aware of this event which some experts are describing as a "seminal" moment in the evolution of the Internet. However for those unaware of this event it makes interesting reading and contemplation. While the title on the page would lead one to believe that it was only U.S. Government sites in fact the 1st sentence actually relates to the fact that it was "worldwide".
    http://saynsumthn.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/detour-us-government-internet-traffic-redirected-to-china/
    truenorth

    rthompson80819



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    Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
    « Reply #1 on: November 27, 2010, 02:31:43 PM »
    That's scary!  I'm guessing that they must have modified a bunch of router tables.

    truenorth

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      Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
      « Reply #2 on: November 27, 2010, 03:09:13 PM »
      At the moment initial reports are sketchy--partially due to the fact that initially the Chinese Government totally denied any involvement. Their latest revelation is something along the lines of "don't get your knickers in a knot--there was no bad intent" Some commentators with obvious knowledge have used the word "routers" however the big mystery is how did they do it as it was not previously believed to have been possible. Due mainly to the belief that Internet traffic would "always" go via the quickest route and this detour was NOT the quickest route. I am sure there is a lot of scrambling going on to try to evaluate this and deal with it. As an old Chinese proverb curse states "may you live in interesting times". truenorth

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
      « Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 03:22:02 PM »
      that blog is clearly intentionally sensationalist. It's no better then Fox news (which I might add is where the "report" went to) or the U.K Daily Mail as far as being accurate is concerned. I mean, look at the top of the page:

      Quote
      First Lady Michelle Obama’s new chief of staff is a former Planned Parenthood speaker

      *censored* does that have to do with <ANYTHING> at all? *censored* is the relevance? none at all, to anything. I'm not sure what the "agenda" Of the blog is, but it's clearly not intended to present unbiassed facts.

      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      truenorth

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        Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
        « Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 03:45:40 PM »
        Well actually BC my first exposure to this was PBS somewhat the antithesis to "FOX" i would say.By the way it is probably readily available on the PBS.ORG site and the presentation i saw was anything but sensationalized.truenorth

        BC_Programmer


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        Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
        « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 03:47:58 PM »
        Well actually BC my first exposure to this was PBS somewhat the antithesis to "FOX" i would say.By the way it is probably readily available on the PBS.ORG site and the presentation i saw was anything but sensationalized.truenorth

        OK, but why link to that blog?
        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        patio

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        Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
        « Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 03:50:54 PM »
        Non news...sorry.
        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

        truenorth

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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 05:56:55 PM »
          I linked to that "blog" because on a google search on the topic so as that i might offer it to those interested on the CH forums it was the 1st of many hits that came up. I presumed (maybe falsely) that if others reading it had the inclination to investigate they could do so from the topic title.There was absolutely not one iota of subterfuge involved. If as the  the "founder" of the internet has stated that it is a "seminal" event. (no not Al Gore) then for those of us with technology interests it might be worthy of perusal. I respect that patio may believe it is "non news" which of course is an opinion to which he is absolutely entitled there appear to be many that do not agree that it is "non news" truenorth
          Another source= http://theweek.com/article/index/209557/did-china-hijack-the-internet
          Plus a link to the PBS site where there are articles related to this story. = http://www.pbs.org/newshour/ and http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec10/chinainternet_11-26.html
          « Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:14:36 PM by truenorth »

          Geek-9pm


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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 06:32:29 PM »
          To truenorth, Topic Starter;

          Thanks for your post.   :)
          Disregard anything from BC_programmer  and Patio.

          Most of the major news groups got that story and went with it. Nobody has proof that something evil happened. Therefore it is Non News sez Patio. ::)

          As for BC, dread bodies could wash up on the shore and he would say 'What does that have to do with homicide?' He wants you to prove your legations.  :D

          Hy everybody, don't let the dynamic duo do our nonthinking for your. Go read the links posted. Decide for yourself if the story has any merit.  8)

          patio

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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 12:23:10 AM »
          Quote
          Most of the major news groups got that story and went with it. Nobody has proof that something evil happened. Therefore it is Non News sez Patio. ::)

          You should signup at Alex Jones's website then...you'll love it...
          " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

          Geek-9pm


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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 03:59:54 AM »
          You should signup at Alex Jones's website then...you'll love it...

          WOW ! Thank you patio! I never knew about his site.

          Funny cartoon about the TSA thing.
          (Do not click on image unless to are  11 years old  or over.)
          http://static.infowars.com/2010/11/i/general/stuffback.jpg
          In FF use crtl + to enlarge image.

          talontromper



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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 04:17:04 AM »
          HAHAHA the sad thing is that its getting to that point, we're sacrificing liberty for security.
          "One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." - Andre Gide

          Geek-9pm


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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 04:27:26 AM »
          talontromper,
          Your profile says you have 10 years working on them. Therefore I am not sure if you are 11 or older. Hope the cartoon did not retard your emotional growth.

          talontromper



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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #13 on: November 28, 2010, 04:35:07 AM »
          Ya, im 20, I'm pretty sure that it didn't retard my emotional growth. I guess time will tell  ;D
          "One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." - Andre Gide

          Geek-9pm


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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #14 on: November 28, 2010, 06:08:06 AM »
          Ya, im 20, I'm pretty sure that it didn't retard my emotional growth. I guess time will tell  ;D

          Just don't fly to China! Until you are 21.

          Allan

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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #15 on: November 28, 2010, 06:52:05 AM »
          You might as well add me to the "ignore" list too. Both the blog and Fox News belong together (and wherever that may be, in my opinion it is NOT here). Thanks for posting more nonsense.

          soybean



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          Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
          « Reply #16 on: November 28, 2010, 08:05:54 AM »
          Some of you may be aware of this event which some experts are describing as a "seminal" moment in the evolution of the Internet. However for those unaware of this event it makes interesting reading and contemplation. While the title on the page would lead one to believe that it was only U.S. Government sites in fact the 1st sentence actually relates to the fact that it was "worldwide".
          http://saynsumthn.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/detour-us-government-internet-traffic-redirected-to-china/
          truenorth
          Although I don't know why you chose to link to a WordPress blog rather than a major news source, it is a serious issue.  Surely, this type of possible Internet security breach is a major reason for the formation of a New Military Command for Cyberspace.   

          truenorth

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            Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
            « Reply #17 on: November 28, 2010, 08:11:39 AM »
            Of course one is free to bring an opinion to ANY subject (with or without any factual basis for that opinion). However when a statement like the following is made by the stature of the individual making it then i suggest it merits one's consideration. "One of the architects of the modern Internet, Rodney Joffe, said this diversion was a very big deal. He says it was caused when computer routers in China belonging to China Telecom began signaling to other computer routers on the Internet that they could provide the quickest path between different computers."
              For the full discussion on the PBS News-hour (my last link above provides it) i urge those that desire to bring an informed opinion to the dialogue on this subject to view it. However the topic subject material has largely been "detoured" by the extraneous debate (input) which has seemed to either focus on the "messenger" (myself) or the source of the information. What a shame that we close our minds to the enlightenment provided by the further acquisition of knowledge. In my view that stifles personal growth and also may lead to a credibility issue when venturing forth with less than complete knowledge for forming the expressed opinion.
              Well suffice to say i guess i too have been "detoured" by the manner and tone this topic has now deteriorated to. truenorth
            P.S. As i was preparing to post this "soybean" entered the discussion with some observations re the original post. I would point him to post #7 in this thread for the answer to that question and the additional provision of other sources for the topic in case readers were negatively influenced by the initial source (as some seem to have been). I presumed as i stated then that if a reader was sufficiently interested it would help to serve as a motivation to seek more knowledge. It never was my intention to provide the complete compendium of discourse or knowledge on the subject. As also stated i presumed perhaps falsely that inquisitive people would research and find further information on their own once exposed to the subject.

            BC_Programmer


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            Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
            « Reply #18 on: November 28, 2010, 09:14:13 AM »
            As for BC, dread bodies could wash up on the shore and he would say 'What does that have to do with homicide?' He wants you to prove your legations.  :D
            This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Ok, let's run through the logic of this. Let's say a hundred bodies washed up on the shore. No marks on their bodies; clearly they drowned.

            In order to be homicide, another person will have had to kill them, with the intent of killing them; so basically, we're looking at the massacre of a hundred people, by forcing them to jump off a bridge with cement shoes. This has far-reaching logistical implications; first, the killer needs to create one hundred pairs of cement shoes. This is far easier said then done, but even more challenging is getting the victims to wear said shoes, not to mention making it so they cannot remove them easily and somehow being able to manage 100 prisoners and prevent them from escaping. Then he needs to make these cement shoes magically dissolve without a trace at some point so that they are no longer detectable on the bodies. Ludicrous.

            Of course, another possible route down that path would be that he killed a single person during a number of months, and left them in a closed off area connected to the ocean; after killing a hundred, he releases them and they float down and are washed up on another shore. Or perhaps he manages to throw them one by one into a closed off aquarium that he fills with water and drowns them all.

            Or, we could consider the fact that the most common cause  that so many bodies might wash up on a shore is due to a recent sea-bound disaster such as a shipwreck. This in fact rather aptly highlights the ineptitude of the reasoning used in sensationalist stories and the fact  that people will gobble up information without any basis. Quotes can be fabricated. It's not that hard. This is further reinforced by the fact that no part of the internet protocol allows network nodes to communicate any sort of "distance" information; the most ideal method of determining the best route is not by a transmitted distance mechanism but rather by measuring ping time to adjoining nodes at various intervals; there is no way a server can manipulate the ping time because the ping time is determine entirely by distance and the quality of the connection. So re: having an "informed opinion" I would guess I do in fact have one, since I am "informed" about how IP actually works.



            I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

            truenorth

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              Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
              « Reply #19 on: November 28, 2010, 09:35:05 AM »
              Ok lets all jump on the stupidity train "No marks on their bodies; clearly they drowned." potentially an absolutely false premise.Do you need me to tell you other possible events that do NOT involve drowning. Given your past demonstrated facility for imaginative thought i invite you to refute your own assumption of facts.
                More importantly have we now "detoured far enough from topic?
              truenorth

              Allan

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              Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
              « Reply #20 on: November 28, 2010, 09:37:10 AM »
              Let's be careful guys. This is starting to get personal. If we can't keep the discussion at a high level we'll have to close the thread.

              truenorth

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                Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                « Reply #21 on: November 28, 2010, 11:11:02 AM »
                Absolutely totally agree.truenorth

                BC_Programmer


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                Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                « Reply #22 on: November 28, 2010, 11:17:28 AM »
                Ok lets all jump on the stupidity train
                Excellent starting argument. I particularly enjoy the metaphor of a train.


                Quote
                "No marks on their bodies; clearly they drowned." potentially an absolutely false premise.
                Of course there are any number of other ways that they could have died, I should have been more explicit; when I said clearly, I meant "the most logical hypothesis to test initially".

                of course, poison could be detected, and would certainly not leave a mark. But that, once again, resurfaces the issue of getting 100 people to take the poison, and for some reason pushing these bodies in the water. (which defies any traditional logic, which of course it could be argued a murderer may not posess). However, testing for the presence of poison is easy. However, even if poison is found, it still doesn't follow logically that they were murdered. Although it is obviously a clear possibility. At that point, an investigation would obviously begin to examine the victims lives and especially over the last few days; perhaps they learn that the last anybody heard of them was that they were going to a public pool; then the investigation would continue, it's quite possible that it could indeed have been a homicide (perhaps some crazy weirdo put a powerful, skin-absorbable poison in the water". I wasn't trying to disprove that homicide was a possible cause, I was trying to say that geeks assertion that any time you find multiple bodies washed up on shore it was always homicide. That is simply not the case, and in any event, the response to geek's post was merely the expository introduction to my actual argument (that the method that they say was "used" is in fact impossible) to which you have not responded, instead commenting purely on my introductory exposition. I now know how Raymond Chen feels.

                Am I saying a redirection didn't happen? Of course not. Am I saying it's not a security issue? No, I never stated anything for or against that. The fact that none of the sources I could find in an (admittedly) fast google search offers an explanation consisted with the IP protocol suggests that it is probably with some other component of the internet.

                I'd be inclined to believe that it might be involve some sort of DNS poisoning, or we could even be really crazy and go with the oft-cited by experts possibility that it's just a common routing hiccup that happened to occur with a particular combination of subnets (routing US gov and mil traffic through China) A difficult to swallow coincidence especially after you've played fallout 3, but nonetheless the issue of survivor bias has to be considered.

                I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                truenorth

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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #23 on: November 28, 2010, 11:25:31 AM »
                  BC,Very well done.I had complete confidence you could come up with another hypothesis.  Now given that this thread is generating a fair amount of views and comments could we all contribute from this point forward to the actual topic please.truenorth

                  patio

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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #24 on: November 28, 2010, 03:13:22 PM »
                  What was the Topic ? ?
                  " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

                  Veltas



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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #25 on: November 28, 2010, 03:18:27 PM »
                  XD Fighting is not the answer...

                  We hear stuff like this all the time, be it 'going to change X forever' or 'completely rethink modern X'.  This thread's argument has almost reached trolling levels...

                  patio

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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #26 on: November 28, 2010, 03:20:52 PM »
                  What pray tell is XD ? ?

                  Sorry for my ignorance...
                  " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

                  BC_Programmer


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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #27 on: November 28, 2010, 03:33:38 PM »
                  This thread's argument has almost reached trolling levels...

                  It wasn't an argument, it was a short debate. (admittedly, most of it focussed on geek's introduction of a irrelevant side-conversation) and Aside from the accidental exchange of what may have seemed personal, for example, when I said:

                  Quote
                  and the fact  that people will gobble up information without any basis
                  Truenorth probably took that personally; I probably would. Really I was pointing that we are not infallible. We can be influenced to think and act a certain way, even if we don't think so (this is true of nearly everybody). Anyway, aside from what I believe there to be a misunderstanding, and a few other minor things, you'll note  that neither one us did anything to try to "provoke" the other- except of course thought-provocation, which can hardly be called trolling.

                  Even so, despite that, the conversation/debate was really rather redundant to the topic.

                  Personally, I think that the news reports may have tries to "detechnify" the explanation a tad too much. the real method of "attack" was likely via DNS poisoning, which also happens accidentally (thus the reference to the fact that this type of thing often happens by accident). Perhaps the quote from the DNS Systems founder was taken out of context, but either way, his company name (DNS Systems, I would imagine, have to do with DNS) suggest that perhaps his quotes were not about this nonsense that the news stories says, but rather the real "tech" meat of the topic (and not a detechified version that paints with broad strokes).



                  What pray tell is XD ? ?
                  I think it's an emoticon.
                  I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                  Geek-9pm


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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #28 on: November 28, 2010, 03:40:58 PM »

                  BC_Programmer


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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #29 on: November 28, 2010, 03:45:47 PM »
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwQn4h1SVgc

                  Thank you geek. Now I believe most of the parties at least partly interested in the actual topic of this thread can bow out for a few pages while the emoticon is discussed.
                  I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                  Veltas



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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #30 on: November 28, 2010, 03:53:26 PM »
                  It wasn't an argument, it was a short debate. (admittedly, most of it focussed on geek's introduction of a irrelevant side-conversation) and Aside from the accidental exchange of what may have seemed personal, for example, when I said:
                   Truenorth probably took that personally; I probably would. Really I was pointing that we are not infallible. We can be influenced to think and act a certain way, even if we don't think so (this is true of nearly everybody). Anyway, aside from what I believe there to be a misunderstanding, and a few other minor things, you'll note  that neither one us did anything to try to "provoke" the other- except of course thought-provocation, which can hardly be called trolling.

                  Even so, despite that, the conversation/debate was really rather redundant to the topic.

                  Personally, I think that the news reports may have tries to "detechnify" the explanation a tad too much. the real method of "attack" was likely via DNS poisoning, which also happens accidentally (thus the reference to the fact that this type of thing often happens by accident). Perhaps the quote from the DNS Systems founder was taken out of context, but either way, his company name (DNS Systems, I would imagine, have to do with DNS) suggest that perhaps his quotes were not about this nonsense that the news stories says, but rather the real "tech" meat of the topic (and not a detechified version that paints with broad strokes).


                  I think it's an emoticon.

                  It wasn't an argument, it was a short debate.

                  You sure about that?

                  XD  - Translation: Tilt your head to the left.

                  BC_Programmer


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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #31 on: November 28, 2010, 03:55:54 PM »
                  The more you try to keep a topic on-track, the more it will de-rail. This thread is proof of this.
                  I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                  patio

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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #32 on: November 28, 2010, 03:57:55 PM »
                  So being ignorant to what XD is i have to watch a utube video ? ?

                  I'll pass...
                  " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

                  Allan

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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #33 on: November 28, 2010, 04:00:43 PM »
                  So being ignorant to what XD is i have to watch a utube video ? ?

                  I'll pass...
                  Wow, my thought EXACTLY!!!

                  Geek-9pm


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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #34 on: November 28, 2010, 04:38:50 PM »
                  Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness, released in Japan.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_XD:_Gale_of_DarknessPokémon

                  The post about XD fighting was comparing our debate here to a video game. The under 12 crowd apparently equates any kind of  fighting to a video game.



                  Veltas



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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #35 on: November 28, 2010, 04:53:22 PM »
                  Nah I'm pretty sure I was just using it as an emoticon.

                  BC_Programmer


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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #36 on: November 28, 2010, 05:30:30 PM »
                  For the love of your diety of choice would somebody please lock this topic. The productive conversation in a thread is always over if somebody mentions pokemon.

                  I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                  patio

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                  Re: Chinesse internet traffic "detour
                  « Reply #37 on: November 29, 2010, 06:07:48 AM »
                  Done.
                  " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "