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Author Topic: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?  (Read 12488 times)

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truenorth



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    Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
    « Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 11:55:11 AM »
    Charlie361, I want you to know that my opinion is that you introduced a worthwhile topic that is potentially both stimulating and thought provoking. That others have chosen the manner of their responses and participation is beyond our ability to control (and in fact we should not try to control it except within the bounds of mutual respect and decency). Thank you for introducing the topic,truenorth

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
    « Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 12:20:58 PM »
    As one can see clearly from my posts, I think the entire thing is logistically impossible, as well as technically infeasible; Let's lay down the various "claims"/facts made here:

    1.Many printers/scanners/etc are manufactured in China. This is true.
    2.The claim is that, during manufacture, the various ROM programs in the device are modified.
    3.the intent of this modification is to take control of the host computer to send... data, of what nature, I don't know. Not particularly relevant, I suppose. One can assume it's stuff you wouldn't want sent.
    4.the Driver software is also subject to these changes.

    1.) While it is true that printers/scanners/ various other peripherals are manufactured in China, It's also true that a number of PCs are as well, as well as almost any sort of electronic device, from digital cameras to cellphones to camcorders to digital picture frames. Surely a Printer, All-in-one or otherwise is one of the least adequate peripherals to take over for this particular task?

    2.) The fact is, as I noted previously, the factories are owned by the companies, who are based in the U.S, and the actual ROM chip code is written by programmers in the U.S (or Canada, or wherever the company is based) If a secret Agent, or whomever, was to infiltrate the factory and change the chip code somehow, that would be filed as a defect during QA testing when the ROM chips are checksummed and compared to the original code as written in the U.S. Of course if the person in the U.S is some sort of secret Chinese government spy or something we've sort of left the realm of a purely technological attack to one of simple espionage.

    3.) As I also noted, the USB specification does not allow a device to do anything but communicate with the host computer; there is no way for a scanner, or any device on a USB controller to "take control of the host network" without some sort of software support, which brings me to number 4:

    4.) If indeed the software driver/package was tampered (and somehow got through the Rigorous QA designed to prevent the deployment of viruses to consumers, much as with any software deployment nowadays), why would it need to be doing this in a partnership with the scanner itself? What does the scanner add to the equation? Obviously if they can simply change the driver package they can simply make it have a virus that sends this "data" (whatever it may be) without the vestigial and wholly unnecessary step of communicating with the printer.

    And all of this rather abruptly ignores the rigorous testing almost any electronic device has to go through to be approved for import, or even export; it ignores the rather robust system in place in the various developed countries to prevent exactly what is being described.

    I have no idea who you are and you could be Bill Gates or a teenager computer geek megalomaniac. 
    Either way, it's irrelevant. I could also be a secret communist spy trying to cover up my countries secret underground operations. But making assumptions about my motive don't serve to invalidate the technical reasons I've given that the methodology that you have described is infeasible.


    Quote
    You may persue this  matter from other sources if interested. 

    I believe I will. Seems I'm not the only one who feels this way. Also, seems the issue is around not just printers and scanners, but the actual computer. That invalidates the whole USB spec thing but doesn't serve to disregard the strict QA that the products go through; with a computer the motherboard, CPU, and all the logic circuits are supposed to be there. you can't just introduce a errant chip and have it go unnoticed. And that's not to mention the fact that such an IC would be situated essentially with the chipset, meaning that it would have to be intimately connected to the network hardware in order for the chinese government to activate it remotely as it is claimed in many articles/blogs that seem to have bought the entire  thing.

    Either way, this article explains why the whole thing is nonsense from a technical and critical thinking perspective far better then I ever could:


    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    Geek-9pm


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    Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
    « Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 10:32:04 PM »
    Here we go, another conspiracy theory. Lease let me join in with some nonsense mixed in with little but the fact. Of course, the problem of mixing fact with nonsense is that you lose your credibility and then no one believed you. But you have to do that. If you expose the raw facts and let everybody know what's really going on, you would have some men in Black coming to visit you soon and you would disappear.

    Of course, I'm just joking. Have to say that.

    Now let me tell you about what I do know. A long time ago I used to go work assembly code programmer for what is now called low-level process control. Although at the time it  was considered to be state-of-the-art programming of microprocessors. We wrote extremely compact assembly language programs that would work with the controllers and other devices that could do input and output to disk drives, printers and special test equipment. It was possible to write a very small program that with the right hardware would to do amazing things.

    Therefore, in my opinion as old school machine code program or, I will confirm that it is very easy to write a small bit of code that other people would not even suspect.  Trying to figure out how somebody else did something, or how something works, without having an actual commented source code can be very difficult. And even with the source code it still requires careful attention.

    So, my opinion is that the idea of is conceivable. Actually, it's quite probable. But I do not have any information about the HP printer doing this. In fact, I have one of those printers. And I leave it on -
     -all the time.
     I'm not worried.    (|

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
    « Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 10:48:33 PM »
    Therefore, in my opinion as old school machine code program or, I will confirm that it is very easy to write a small bit of code that other people would not even suspect.  Trying to figure out how somebody else did something, or how something works, without having an actual commented source code can be very difficult. And even with the source code it still requires careful attention.

    Yes, but how hard would it be to modify existing machine code (the ROMs and other code is created by HP engineers, not on the spot by the factory workers) to do these things? As you said it's difficult to work with machine code without the commented source.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    Geek-9pm


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    Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
    « Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 11:36:34 PM »
    Yes, but how hard would it be to modify existing machine code (the ROMs and other code is created by HP engineers, not on the spot by the factory workers) to do these things? As you said it's difficult to work with machine code without the commented source.
    Yes, a valid point. The average factory worker would not likely have the skills needed. It would have to be a senior engineer that is allowed by HP to make mods to the code. So the next question: Does HP really let this sort of thing happen?
    Hard to believe. HP has a big reputation to keep.

    Charlie361

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      Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
      « Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 11:11:25 AM »
      Actually i feel a little overpowered being even on this site as my background is over 20 years of just being a Federal communicator and only worked with computer equipment in my last tour overseas prior to retirement in 1986.  I was only a chief of a 5 man comm center and could do first echelon maint. and anything else was just switch to a spare and and call in the proper tech. 

      I have no reason to think that my source is right on or just a obsessed retiree due to his  comsec background.  My 12 years with my pc gives me enough experience to crash them with my lack of technical knowledge.

      I will continue to be on the lookout for any more on this subject and no need to continue with it here at this time .  Actually you all appear to me to be high level experts in Silicon Valley.  I leave you with a wish  that you be alert as we are in harms way from too many quarters to not be.    :)

      Cheers!


      Geek-9pm


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      Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
      « Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 02:03:36 PM »
      Actually i feel a little overpowered being even on this site as my background is over 20 years of just being a Federal communicator and only worked with computer equipment in my last tour overseas prior to retirement in 1986.
      ..
      Cheers!

      Thank you for your comments. Your years of experience certainly have shown you things about human nature. Below are two articles that professed to cast some light on this subject. Both are very dated, and did not clarify the issue. There continue to be rumors about printer firmware virus all over the Internet, but is very difficult to find the smoking gun.
      Is there a Printer Firmware Virus ?  -HP
      HP Printers - Printer Virus?

      If there really was such a thing - Why does in not show up in a Google search with clear, concise results?
      Try:
      Google printer firmware virus

      None of the first twenty links have any real proof.
      I am tired to looking.

      rthompson80819



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      Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
      « Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 02:11:03 PM »
      If the Chinese were really putting some kind of bug in printers or scanners, don't you think HP would be all over it?  HP has plenty of US facilities (not to mention worldwide) to check out stuff like this.

      Geek-9pm


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      Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
      « Reply #23 on: December 09, 2010, 02:41:00 PM »
      If the Chinese were really putting some kind of bug in printers or scanners, don't you think HP would be all over it?  HP has plenty of US facilities (not to mention worldwide) to check out stuff like this.
      Please don't point to the Chinese without some proof.
      May I send you a Pm?  :)

      rthompson80819



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      Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
      « Reply #24 on: December 09, 2010, 02:50:19 PM »
      The OP was the one pointing to the Chinese.  Personally, I don't think the Chinese would risk losing business by doing something like the OP said.

      And sure PM me anytime.

      Charlie361

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        Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
        « Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 04:59:51 PM »
        P.S.

         I will  be watching now what US Cert comes out with on a regular basis.

        I would think they have the real scoop.

        truenorth



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          Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
          « Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 05:27:19 PM »
          Please,please ,please do not read more into what i am about to say than what it actually says. Do you remember the word "melamine" as it pertained to a variety of contaminated food products emanating from China and the world wide and domestic (China) consequences of that? It had absolutely NO Value to the products it appeared in and in fact was very toxic. Why was it added i do not know.  But surely the fact that they have done this and other things to cast doubt on the quality of certain exported products ought to cast some doubt as to this being the  case=" Personally, I don't think the Chinese would risk losing business by doing something like the OP said." No i am not suggesting a "conspiracy " here but there was absolutely no valid reason for those foods to be adulterated other than to expand the profits of some manufacturer. Is China alone guilty of these practices? I truly doubt it. The reasons why these things happen are varied and are limited only by imagination/opportunity/greed/and getting caught. So as a former movie actor once said "trust but verify" truenorth

          patio

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          Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
          « Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 05:32:41 PM »
          I'd just throw the printer in the dumpster...and start over...
          " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

          Geek-9pm


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          Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
          « Reply #28 on: December 09, 2010, 06:26:43 PM »
          One last shot:
          Quote
          On April 1st 2010, Sony Computer Entertainment released Firmware 3.21 for the Sony PlayStation 3. This firmware disabled the "Other OS" feature on all PlayStation 3 models. The "Other OS" feature had allowed customers to use the PlayStation 3 as a full fledged computer running Linux. Because the "upgrade" occurred on April 1, many people thought that it was a joke.[
          http://www.wikipedia.org/

          truenorth



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            Re: Canon/HP Multifunction printers have bugs planted in them at factory?
            « Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 07:57:21 AM »
            Geek, Don't know if it was your intention with your web link but it seems to only lead to the "wikipedia" site of "language" selection and not to anything i can determine is relevant to this thread or your comments. truenorth