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Author Topic: Re: How many...  (Read 28998 times)

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Hopester Doofus



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    Re: How many...
    « Reply #15 on: August 23, 2005, 08:28:35 AM »
    It's unfortunate that conversations like this ultimately must deteriorate into hate-filled diatribes. Another relevant and respectful discussion of differences poisoned by invectives and insults. I didn't see Doc demean your opinions, Mac.
    There’s no limit to what you can achieve if you don’t mind who gets the credit.

    Raptor

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    Re: How many...
    « Reply #16 on: August 23, 2005, 08:47:10 AM »
    Quote
    One answer may be that it doesn't accomplish His purpose, which is to save as many of us from *censored* as will allow Him.


    The Jehovah would say "We have a good god, he would create no *censored*, therefore, people do not go to *censored* they are merely not among the 254.000 resurrected to live along side Jesus his side."

    There are several things wrong with both views:

    1. Why would god want his creation to suffer if souls take up no room (They have no matter?) and heaven is a creation by 'God'?
    2. Why 254.000 people? What if all these seats have now been reserved with the billions of people that live on earth?
    3. Why could someone as powerful as 'God' now simply destroy *censored* and instill 'goodness' into everyone's hearts? Why does he rely on his own creation to do his work for him and say that they will go to *censored* if they do not? Did he create *censored*? He must have created Satan or any other evil deity if he is the 'only' true god.



    « Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 08:47:53 AM by Raptor »

    Hopester Doofus



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      Re: How many...
      « Reply #17 on: August 23, 2005, 09:17:56 AM »
      The deviants and the religion they claim to share with others are separate entities.
      There’s no limit to what you can achieve if you don’t mind who gets the credit.

      Hopester Doofus



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        Re: How many...
        « Reply #18 on: August 23, 2005, 01:43:19 PM »
        I fail to see how an appeal to keep things civil amounts to living in an ivory tower, but so be it.

        Judging from the escalating rhetoric of the last few posts, perhaps we'd better put this topic to rest. I doubt any minds are going to be changed today.  :)
        There’s no limit to what you can achieve if you don’t mind who gets the credit.

        Hopester Doofus



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          Re: How many...
          « Reply #19 on: August 23, 2005, 02:54:24 PM »
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          I prefer to keep things Military as I find most civilians to be most uncivil.


          Agreed!   ;D
          There’s no limit to what you can achieve if you don’t mind who gets the credit.

          pcdoc4christ

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          Re: How many...
          « Reply #20 on: August 24, 2005, 05:39:45 AM »
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          If God's love encompasses the whole world and if everyone who does not believe in him will perish, then surely this question needs to be asked: When, after two thousand years, does God's plan kick in for the billion people he "so loves" in China? Or for the 840 million in India? ...


          I believe you are speaking of Jesus' quote in John, chapter 3: "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.  Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already..."

          You ask a good question, Hopester!  I believe the answer is that there *are* genuine Christians in China.   Jonathan Hudson Taylor and other missionaries brought the Christian message deep into the interior of that nation long before the communists seized power.  There is a Christian presence there, otherwise, why does China outlaw Christians who are not members of the so-called Christian church that they sanction?

          There are Christian missionaries still in India, Japan, and elsewhere.  I'm friends with members of a local Christian church in my community who make yearly trips to Indian to work with missionaries there who build homes for the homeless, feed the hungry, etc.

          The more important question to ask is not, "What about those who haven't heard the truth?" but "What about me?"  That was the question i had to ask myself before i put my trust in Christ to save me from certain eternal separation from Him: What was i going to do with Jesus?  My answer was that i would not fully trust Him until my strongest doubts were removed.  Seeing that there were answers for those doubts and strong evidence to believe is what convinced me.

          Then i had to deal with my sin.  Was i going to try to give it up for Him?  As Jesus goes on to say in John, chapter 3: "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light, because there deeds were evil."

          Regards,
          Doc
          « Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 05:42:47 AM by pcdoc4christ »

          pcdoc4christ

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          Re: How many...
          « Reply #21 on: August 24, 2005, 05:52:11 AM »
          Quote

          The Jehovah would say "We have a good god, he would create no *censored*, therefore, people do not go to *censored* they are merely not among the 254.000 resurrected to live along side Jesus his side."

          There are several things wrong with both views:

          1. Why would god want his creation to suffer if souls take up no room (They have no matter?) and heaven is a creation by 'God'?
          2. Why 254.000 people? What if all these seats have now been reserved with the billions of people that live on earth?
          3. Why could someone as powerful as 'God' now simply destroy *censored* and instill 'goodness' into everyone's hearts? Why does he rely on his own creation to do his work for him and say that they will go to *censored* if they do not? Did he create *censored*? He must have created Satan or any other evil deity if he is the 'only' true god.


          The Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones who have taken the passage in Revelation that mentions 144,000 in heaven and argue that heaven does not have room for any more.  I agree, Raptor, that the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong on this point.  However, i consider theirs a non-Christian cult. I've spent hours speaking with some members of their religion who were friendly, and sincere, but sincerely wrong.  

          Revelation does not say that the group of 144,000 is the *only* group allowed in heaven.  It is also likely that the number is symbolic.  In ancient Jewish thinking, for example, 12 is a number representing completeness.  Hence, there were 12 tribes making up the Jewish nation, Jesus chose 12 disciples, Revelation mentions 12 rulers in heaven, and 12 x 12 x 1,000 = 144,000.

          As for *censored*, it seems to me that God doesn't send people to *censored* (whatever *censored* is), they send themselves there by rejecting the only way to heaven, which is trusting Christ.  This is probably why Jesus spent more time talking about the horrors of *censored* than the joys of heaven.

          Please keep in mind that this discussion topic is not one that i started.  I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone.  I was fascinated by M_2's belief that nothing exists that does not have DNA, and was hoping to hear more.  

          In addition, i do believe that i have an obligation to answer any questions others ask, as Peter wrote in 1 Peter, chapter 3.  Besides, i kind of like you guys and would enjoy spending time with you in heaven!

          :)
          « Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 05:13:51 PM by pcdoc4christ »

          Raptor

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          Re: How many...
          « Reply #22 on: August 24, 2005, 06:02:22 AM »
          Quote
          I agree that the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.


          Are they? They seem to be more worldly regarding the bible than other religions.

          Quote
          Besides, i kind of like you guys and would enjoy spending time with you in heaven!


          :D

          I still like to think that I will go to Valhalla.  ;D
          « Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 06:03:35 AM by Raptor »

          pcdoc4christ

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          Re: How many...
          « Reply #23 on: August 24, 2005, 07:01:20 AM »
          Quote
          ...
          I still like to think that I will go to Valhalla.  ;D


          Say hello to Thor when you get there, and ask him if the constant battle is still worth it!

          ;)

          Hopester Doofus



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            Re: How many...
            « Reply #24 on: August 24, 2005, 09:00:06 AM »
            Doc, it is a pleasure to parry opinions with you, and it would please me to no end to continue this discussion further. Unfortunately this forum is probably not the most suitable of venues (although I have been inclined from time to time to believe that the Antichrist resides within my PC).

            God bless you in your faith. Remember where we left off!



            There’s no limit to what you can achieve if you don’t mind who gets the credit.

            pcdoc4christ

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            Re: How many...
            « Reply #25 on: August 24, 2005, 05:17:34 PM »
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            ...I have been inclined from time to time to believe that the Antichrist resides within my PC... God bless you in your faith. Remember where we left off!


            LOL--It's not an antichrist, just a gremlin!

            ;)

            You guys are all right.  Thanks for the conversation.  :)


            « Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 05:23:26 PM by pcdoc4christ »

            merlin_2

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            Re: How many...
            « Reply #26 on: August 24, 2005, 05:33:32 PM »
            Each to their own beliefs doc.........the reasoning in the dna,is the world is over 65 million years old, and had life life on it! and still does till the sun burns it out,also by a fluke the moon has help the earth survive ,and the search for et is futile<and a waste of cash when this world cannot feed itself,except for war<weapons>this is the last planet in the universe,why you may well ask, why are there so many strange species found below the sea that survive without light,this planet is the last ,in the big bang left. if you can understand my views.Another twist is that someone saw this happening a place dna on the earth........
            « Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 05:38:05 PM by merlin_2 »

            pcdoc4christ

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            Re: How many...
            « Reply #27 on: August 24, 2005, 06:19:01 PM »
            Quote
            Each to their own beliefs doc.........the reasoning in the dna,is the world is over 65 million years old, and had life life on it! and still does till the sun burns it out,also by a fluke the moon has help the earth survive ,and the search for et is futile<and a waste of cash when this world cannot feed itself,except for war<weapons>this is the last planet in the universe,why you may well ask, why are there so many strange species found below the sea that survive without light,this planet is the last ,in the big bang left. if you can understand my views.Another twist is that someone saw this happening a place dna on the earth........


            Yeah, i agree.  It's simply amazing!  Amazing how life is made possible on our planet.   Amazing how we have the ability to produce far more food than is necessary to feed every man, woman and child, but the greed and other sin of some keeps food from many.

            There are Christians who see the seven days of creation in Genesis as seven stages (not seven literal days), so it is an issue sincere Christians may debate, but should never divide over.

            But when i see something breathtaking in nature, like a rarely beautiful sunset, i feel as though i'm getting a rare glimpse of something closer to the experience of heaven.  

            "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands.  Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.  There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.  Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the end of the world."  (Psalm 19)

            I'm really curious, and i hope you don't mind if i ask, do you consider yourself an atheist or a pagan?  I mean, do you see the earth as uncreated? or do you see the earth itself as a living god? or are you still trying to figure it all out?





             
            « Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 06:20:14 PM by pcdoc4christ »

            merlin_2

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            Re: How many...
            « Reply #28 on: August 24, 2005, 06:37:33 PM »
            I  dont think that anybody can,explain ,why we are here,<to breed maybe> we are suppose to be above animals so why do we act like them?humans that think and have a brain to act proper<thats a joke> and  to have wars for thousands of years and  its still happening why?no one has any rights to kill people,/kids goverments should be held accountable for this outrage,all humans have  right to life.......dispite there thoughts...i enjoy the old joke but why are people killing people!is it greed or just to prove that their country rules the world.........or so they think it does..thwe world need to grow up.........and look after people that need looking after.....forget the mbe,medals etc...

            Raptor

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            Re: How many...
            « Reply #29 on: August 24, 2005, 06:39:14 PM »
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            I'm really curious, and i hope you don't mind if i ask, do you consider yourself an atheist or a pagan?  I mean, do you see the earth as uncreated? or do you see the earth itself as a living god? or are you still trying to figure it all out?


            I'll let you know when I'm pushing up daisies. Do you have an after-life E-mail where I can reach you?

            I think that you can read all the books you want, speak to all the religious people you can find and never discover what created you, me or this world. In the mean time, I'll just kill time by speaking to all the religious people I come across and reading all the books I want.