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Author Topic: SB Audigy LS MIDI  (Read 9005 times)

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toejamtea

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    SB Audigy LS MIDI
    « on: August 02, 2012, 12:47:20 AM »
    Hey everyone, I recently upgraded to 7 from XP and have been trying to configure things to my liking. I've run into a problem I can't seem to fix, so I'm hoping someone can help.

    I have an SB Audigy LS sound card. It's fairly old, but it does the job for me. Unfortunately, I can't seem change the default MIDI output from "Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth".

    To be a little more focused on the exact issue (still W7 related, not the program) I use a program called Guitar Pro to create sheet music and hear what I'm writing. In the programs Options menu there is a "MIDI Outputs" section where, back in XP, I could choose between the Microsoft Synth or the SB Audigy LS MIDI Synth. The SB option is completely gone and I really can't stand the sound of the MS-GS synth. I'm not plugging in any instruments to my computer or transfering the MIDI anywhere. I simply want my computer speakers to play the Audigy LS MIDI Synth.

    Any ideas? I've read something about a registry hack, but I've yet to find details on it.

    hartbeatmr



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    Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
    « Reply #1 on: August 03, 2012, 02:12:40 PM »
    Good evening toejamtea and welcome to CH

    Your sound card is W7 compatible which is good!
       
         If I am understanding your post the option is "greyed out" or "not there" to change the midi. When you installed the card did you use just the "windows drivers" or did you get software / drivers from http://support.creative.com/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?catID=1&subCatID=205&prodID=10365&prodName=Audigy%20LS%20%28SE%29&subCatName=Audigy&CatName=Sound+Blaster on the link there is (2) separate downloads (1) for drivers and (1) for the software / application.

         It is possible you are just missing the software needed to make these changes even knowing Windows 7 will install (generic) drivers. Please let us know how you make out, Mike
    Statement of the day.  The IT person asked. What kind of computer do you have and the customer replied a white one why?

    toejamtea

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      Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
      « Reply #2 on: August 03, 2012, 07:09:04 PM »
      Hey hartbeatmr, you're correct, I let W7 install the Creative drivers on its own. Then I tried uninstalling them and downloading the drivers from the site and ended up with the same result. I figured maybe it needed the software so I uninstalled them again and then used the CD that came with my card, but the setup.exe would tell me that there was no Creative hardware installed. Then I tried installing just the drivers first, then put the CD in to try to get the software, but it still gave me the same No Creative Hardware message.

      I tried the programs you linked me to, Alchemy and WaveStudio. They installed fine and work but neither has anything to do with MIDI control. Alchemy is for game sound and WaveStudio is an editing sofware, so ultimately the result is still the same and I'm unable to change the MIDI output in GuitarPro. I didn't notice them on the site when I downloaded the drivers, so it was worth a shot. Thanks for pointing them out. I'm going to look for the EAX software next, though I don't remember that controlling MIDI either, it just added effects to sound such as theatre or stadium sound.

      However, with a program called Timidity++ I accomplished a few things. Timidity++ shows up as a second option in the guitarpro MIDI setup options. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually change the sound, it still uses the MS GS default midi. What it does let me do is save guitarpro files as midi and then play them through Timidity++ with with the soundfont of my choosing. But this is more so intercepting the sound data of t he file than actually changing anything. This interception would be useful if it could happen in real time, not just with a saved file. Ultimately this is very inconvenient because it takes away the ability to hear what I'm writing as I'm writing it with the midi soundfont of my choice. I'd have to write a part of a song, then export it, then open Timidity++ to hear it with good MIDI, then go back to guitarpro and repeat. It's going to drastically decrease productivity.

      After hours of research the issue seems to be W7 removing the ability for the user to change MIDI output, except through some registry hack. Unfortunately, no one who has mentioned the hack/edit has actually posted steps to do it. Any ideas? I'm very familiar with registry editing, so it's not something I'm worried about screwing up. I'd love to give this a shot if I knew how.

      Also, I read somewhere that on W7 the MS GS Synth is located in a .cab file. This should be a .sf2 file then. Is it possible to open said .cab file, delete the MS .sf2 file and replace it with one of my choosing? I've never tried editing a .cab file before.

      hartbeatmr



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      Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
      « Reply #3 on: August 03, 2012, 07:22:34 PM »
      Good evening toejamtea

      I am still looking I figured that would have worked but I will be back. But I do have a couple of questions

      #1... What model PC is this (HP a810c / Dell E521 etc)
      #2... before any drivers are installed on the PC the chipset drivers need to be done first.
      #3... Not is matters for your card but for the software it may what bit version of W7 do you have (32 bit or 64 bit Windows 7)
      #4... If this is a custom PC what is the model of the MoBo (ms-7104 etc) this is silk screened on the board sometimes they are written in white.

      But did you do the drivers from there the software you installed (Alchemy and WaveStudio) is lower down on the page above them is the drivers

      Please let us know and either my self or some one else will be back, Mike
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      hartbeatmr



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      Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
      « Reply #4 on: August 03, 2012, 07:44:55 PM »
      Good evening toejamtea

      I think I found the solution for you it comes highly rated http://nomoregoatsoup.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/daniel_ks-sb-audigy-support-pack-3-7/

      From what I am finding out this fixes "midi connection issues" & "software issues" & "DDL & DTS encoding" etc

      Please remember do make "restore point" you should be fine BUT just in-case.  Mike   
      Statement of the day.  The IT person asked. What kind of computer do you have and the customer replied a white one why?

      toejamtea

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        Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
        « Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 10:36:02 PM »
        Hey again hartbeatmr, thank so much for being so attentive to this issue of mine.

        Here's the info you requested:

        1. Sony VGC-RB50
        2.
        3. 32 bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1
        4. It is not a custom PC. CPU-Z says of the Mainboard:

        Brand:          Intel D915GRO AAC89748-202
        Chipset:        Intel i915/i915G Rev. B1
        Southbridge: Intel 82801FB (ICH6) Rev. 03
        LPCIO:          SMSC LPC47M182
        BIOS:           EV91510A.04T.0064.2005.0816.1946
        Date:            08/16/2005

        I'm going to see if there's a BIOS update available, but I'm fairly certain this is the most up-to-date for my computer.

        Yes, I did download and install the drivers from the website when I realized the drivers W7 downloaded on it's own weren't giving me the results I wanted. And yes, I mentioned above that I did install the programs, too, and said that they in no way effect MIDI output. So, from the support.creative.com website, I have the 1st, 3rd, and 4th installed. The 2nd is for XP or Vista. I hope this is clear now.

        Also, in XP you could open the speaker icon in the system tray and work your way through the properties to choose your Playback and Recording Devices. In the Playback section, there was a specific selection for MIDI output where it was by default the Microsoft WaveSynth, but it had a drop down list to change it to whatever MIDI soundfonts you had installed. This option is completely gone in W7. I can't even see that MS WaveSynth is the default through W7 itself. The only reason I know it's the one is because I know the sound (it's really that bad, you never forget it) and also guitarpro has it's own MIDI Setup Menu which mirrors the MIDI Playback menu. This menu only lists the MS WaveSynth and the Timid++ that I mentioned last post. So, nothing is greyed out. It's entirely missing. There's no option for adjustment or change of the default MIDI playback.

        As for the new link you've provided to the No More Goat Soup website, I have already been there. Unfortunately, the list of cards they mention doesn't include my Audigy LS. And yes, I did try to install it anyway but it crashed the computer. There is a link below the listed cards that mentions my Audigy LS specifically, but the link is only to the Creative forums. I bookmarked the site a few hours ago and was planned to sign up for it after hearing back from you. It seems like the creative forums will be more appropriate and likely to produce some kind of result. Though, I'm pretty certain that W7 has simply blocked the ability to change MIDI output.

        Did you happen to have any luck finding the registry hack/edit I mentioned? That's so far the only bit of hope I have for this to work.

        You're a god send if you can find that! I'm off to check on the Creative forums and see what happens. I'll post back here when I have a definitive result of either a fix, registry hack/edit, or a big W7 GFYS. At least then it can be archived and in the event some similar situation comes up, the solution will be quickly available.

        Again, I appreciate so much all you've been doing! This problem is frustrating as *censored* and I have the computer physically with me. I can only imagine how much it annoys you having to work even less than remotely! Again, Thank you, Mike! Please let me know if you find that registry hack/edit.

        hartbeatmr



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        Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
        « Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 12:40:22 PM »
        Good afternoon toejamtea

           Sorry on the delay: with everything that you have attempted and have done and still don't have the ability to make the change. I do have a question for you.

        Thank you for the system info that you supplied.

        Please bear with me there is a reason to my madness

        #1... In the info you put in I see that you have a 900 / 910 / 915 series chipset from Intel I do know that the very first time (about 1.5 + years ago) I had installed W7 in that chip set it was very hard to finding the chipset drivers. Windows 7 loads / installs a generic set did you install the chipset drivers. If the correct chipset drivers are not installed the OS will not know how to handle / pass on the "inf" (info that the OS needs to interpret for hardware) for all add-on cards / devices to run / setup. It has been so long since I have installed W7 on a 900 series I don't even remember where I got it from. I still may have it on my external HD but I would have to look ;D

        #2... I would (if not done already) install the Chipset drivers (from Intel) then sound card drivers and then the sound card software (Intel does not have them on the site ???). I did end up finding them from doing a "Google" search 

        #3... I would also go into the BIOS and disable the on-board sound card.

        #4... I personally don't think in your case a BIOS update would do any good. That is up to you that would be a last resort.

        #5... Making this change may be a limitation of W7  :'(  like you stated with out doing a reg hack and I have not found that reg mod yet!

         There is a program called "Drivermax" Free and paid version. (I have not used it) but gets a a lot of good reviews for finding / updating drivers.

        I will still keep on digging. Mike       
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        BC_Programmer


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        Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
        « Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
        Because of WASAPI and changes to the audio architecture, the capability to choose and change soundfonts from the actual Creative driver itself is not available. Instead, you need to install a separate "Soundfont Bank Manager" program, which I believe performs the appropriate swapping of the actual sound banks.

        That said, in my case all programs that support MIDI both have the default Roland (MS GM Synth) as well as a few from my X-Fi sound card (SB X-Fi Synth A and X-Fi Synth B, as well as X-Fi MIDI out (which is a physical MIDI out on the sound card itself). These options were present even without the Soundfont manager program installed. Synth A uses the soundfont bank I choose in the manager; Synth B seems to use the original default soundfont bank (or is an option to change I have not found and still uses the default).

        Obviously the two Synths always sound better than the default software synth. I've never seen a way to change the soundfont used by the software synth, though.

        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        hartbeatmr



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        Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
        « Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 03:49:46 PM »
        Good evening BC_Programmer

        Very nice, very nice write up.

             I was not aware of those changes. From what I am finding it is a limitation WASAPI. Did MS make this change for quality or security? I do now that even the simple items like changing the start up sound(s) can not be changed with out mod to the dll file. The same holds true for the appearance of WMP that too has to be changed in the reg.


        Thanks a learned something new ;D   
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        Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
        « Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 11:15:31 PM »
        Did MS make this change for quality or security?
        The changes, IMO, where sorely needed. Consider some of the history of Audio in Windows. Originally, it was introduced in Windows 3.1 with the "Multimedia Extensions for Windows". At the time, only one application at a time could play audio, and that was because the original design didn't have support for tracking or mixing of audio streams. This is why some older-designed programs will often give a message that another program is using the device when it encounters and error.

        With Windows 95 and NT, the same APIs were "stretched" to 32-bits (for win32 as opposed to the older Win16). But the basic design wasn't changed- only one application could play audio at a time.

        Windows 98 actually changed this, and deployed a entirely new audio software design, based on the newer "Windows Driver Model" (WDM). As part of this, they added the ability to mix audio streams- providing, for the first time, the capability to have multiple applications give audio output simultaneously.

        Thing is, this basic infrastructure remained all the way through Windows XP. Some might- and I agree- that "well, if it isn't broken, don't fix it", but in many ways, it was broken. One of the big issues was that a lot of the code ran at the highest privilege level in kernel mode. This had two issues- first, it meant that there was a lot of switching to and from kernel mode, and it also meant that a sound-related bug or a bug with a sound driver could take down the entire machine (via a BSOD). Another big problem is that while the audio quality was fine for your "normal" users, pro-audio enthusiasts, sound composers, and music artists were less than happy with the way sound was dealt with. At the time, this made Windows less desirable for things like sound composing and MIDI stuff than Mac OS. Another problem was that the Control panels and other audio related UI was really confusing and Sound issues were often difficult to diagnose. Vista's introduction of "WASAPI" (or rather, a new Windows Audio System) addressed these by first moving the entire audio stack out of kernel mode and into user mode. This IMO actually did a lot for reliability. Programs like FLStudio can easily bluescreen on XP machines due to driver issues or issues with even the software itself, but with Vista those programs crash (and they might cause problems with audio) but the system itself stays up. The second change was to completely rework the UI; a lot of it was rewritten completely; and that isn't to mention the new capabilities such as changing the volumes of individual programs.

        Quote
        I do now that even the simple items like changing the start up sound(s) can not be changed with out mod to the dll file.
        I think this was changed to keep some "brand" to the sound. IMO it's rather dumb but it's also separate from the sound system itself- I mean, this decision is not part of the Audio System but probably made by somebody on the Shell team. Or probably somebody in marketing.

        Honestly I didn't even know this was changed- I hadn't even noticed. When I saw the above quoted text I went to the sound menu to get a screenshot of the "Windows Startup" item that I was sure was there but of course it was not there.

        Rather silly that I can change the sound of a breakpoint in Visual Studio in that sound panel but can only set whether the startup sound is on or off.
        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        toejamtea

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          Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
          « Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 02:58:18 AM »
          @hartbeatmr:

          I will give Drivermax a try and see how it goes. The problem is thoroughly frustrating and I've yet to fix it, but I've not been on it the past day or so. I plan to get on it during the week and see what I can do. For now, I'll try Drivermax and see if it can download the Intel Chipset (I doubt it?) or whatever else driver I may need. I'm certain I have all of the proper drivers for my Audigy card, though. As for the Audigy software, only some of it will install for W7. On the Creative site, they state that they've dropped continued support for that card, so there won't be any addition of the few other programs such as EAX for any OS past Vista.

          As for disabling the onboard sound card, it's not in use, though not disabled. I'll give it a shot, but the result I'm expecting is either nothing changing or it'll disable the ability to hear even the generic MS MIDI sound.

          I'll let you know.

          @BC_Programmer:

          Thanks for the response. I think you may be a bit unclear of my issue, or I'm unclear on your post. My issues isn't switching from Creative soundfonts to something else. The issue is that I cannot switch TO my Creative soundfont. It's stuck on the generic Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, which as you know sounds terrible.

          As well, in my Device Manager, my "PCI Input Device" has the yellow exclamation triangle on it. This happened on WindowsXP as well, but it was fixed by uninstalling all drivers and reinstalling through the CD. Unfortunately, the CD will not install on Windows7. If I force it to, it crashes the computer to BSoD and upon restart, it deletes whatever it did to cause the crash.

          How old is your X-Fi card? My Audigy LS is very old. I bought it in 2004/2005, maybe even as early as 2003. It's done everything I needed it to for years and I love the MIDI sound of it. I don't use any external MIDI hardware such as keyboards or anything like that. I use one program called GuitarPro with which I input the notes by hand on my computer keyboard. The program can play back to me what I put in. In XP I had multiple options, but now only the MS Wavetable Synth.

          When you say, "I've never seen a way to change the soundfont used by the software synth", are you refering to the "Soundfont Bank Manager", or to any software that plays back MIDI soundfont?

          toejamtea

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            Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
            « Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 06:02:43 AM »
            Finally found a fix, to a degree.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTHwxXpHEeY

            I'm not running 64-bit, so I stopped when he got to that part. This has allowed me to use the soundfont that I installed to the Timidity++ driver/software.  With Timidity I'm able to edit a .cfg file to input whatever .sf2 file I want. With the registry hack in the video, it makes the guitarpro program play back the Timidity++ soundfont rather than the MS Wavesynth soundfont.

            So. ALMOST there.  Now I just need to find the soundfont files for the SB Audigy cards. My guess is that they're somewhere in the drivers. When I was running XP in about 2009, an update to the driver was released and I got it through Windows Update. After install, my MIDI sound was completely different than what I originally had and I didn't like it, so I had to revert back to the previous driver.

            Is there a way to extract the .sf2 files from the driver install files?

            toejamtea

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              Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
              « Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 08:47:22 AM »
              Finally solved! Considering that CH seems to be the first place to figure this out, perhaps it's worthwhile to sticky this for any person looking for the same solution. As we've painstakingly found out, there's no comprehensive guide, most recommendations simply do not work. Now we have the solution! So, here it is:


              ___________________________

              This may seem like a lot, but it's very easy.

              Before starting, you need to download and install 2 programs:
              -DosBox
              -Timidity++

              They're an easy google find. You don't need them running immediately after install.

              As well, you need to:
              -Have a .mid file on hand for testing
              -Make sure your sound card drivers are already completely up to date

              Next:

              1) Download the driver you think/know has the MIDI Soundfont you desire. If you're unsure, download all drivers you can find for your card. DO NOT INSTALL ANY OF THE DRIVERS YOU DOWNLOAD.

              2) Right click on the driver you downloaded and choose, "Extract to XXXX/" (where XXXX is the name of the driver exe file). Do this for each driver you download, being sure to put them all in their own separate folder.

              4) Open the folder that the extraction created and use Ctrl-F to find anything called "sf2". There maybe multiple.

              5) Move all sf2 files into the "C:\...\...\timidity\Musix" folder or wherever Timidity++ is installed for you. It's fine to rename the soundfonts to anything. Rename any sf2 files that happen to have the same name.

              6) In the "Musix" folder, make a copy of, and then open, "timidity.cfg" and erase anything it says, then edit and save to the following:


              dir "C:\...\...\Musix" (or whatever the path is to your Musix folder)

              soundfont "XXXXX.SF2" (where XXXX is the name of the .sf2 file you want to use)

              #extension opt -Od
              #extension opt -o0
              #extension opt -U
              #extension opt -o0
              #extension opt -o0

               
              --I struck these out because I don't think you NEED to add them, they should add themselves once you've gotten to step 8. If it doesn't work when you leave it out, try again with them included.

              7) In the main Timidity++ folder, open "timw32g.exe".

              8) Open your .mid file in Timidity++ and press play. If this isn't the right soundfont, go back to the timidity.cfg and edit in a new sf2 file name. Once you find the one you want, you can close Timidity++.

              ___________________________

              From here, you can do 2 things. Contine to read this, or go watch this video as it shows everything I'm about to say.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTHwxXpHEeY&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s
              --You don't need to worry about anything he did before the start time of the video. He was just downloading DosBox and the driver and soundfont he wanted.

              9) Open DosBox and type in "mixer /listmidi" without the quotes. A list of all MIDI devices will appear. Take note of what # is next to Timidity++.

              10) In Start Menu "Search Programs and Files" type in "regedit" and hit enter.

              11) Navigate to:

              -[HKEY_CURRENT_USER/Software/Microsoft/ActiveMovie/devenum/{4EFE2452-168A-11D1-BC­76-00C04FB9453B}]
              --Before continung, export "ActiveMovie" in case something goes wrong.

              12) Open "Default MidiOut Device". On the right side of regedit, locate and double-click "MidiOutId". Edit the value to the # that was next to Timidity++ in DosBox.

              13) On the left side of regedit, locate "Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth" and locate it's "MidiOutId" on the right side and double-click. Edit the value to one number higher than the highest number that showed up in DosBox.

              14) 64-bit users will need to repeat steps 12 and 13 in:
              -[HKEY_CURRENT_USER/Software/Microsoft/ActiveMovie/devenum 64-bit/{4EFE2452-168A-11D1-BC­76-00C04FB9453B}]

              15) Restart your computer.

              16) Open your program/software that will play back your MIDI and set the default MIDI device to "Timidity++"


              You're done!
              ___________________________


              Now any program that plays MIDI back to you should now use the soundfont assoicated with Timidity++ rather than whatever had originally been playing.




              I really must extend a thanks to hartbeatmr who spent a lot of time researching this with me. Not many people are willing to really dedicate themselves to others issues, especially not ones that seem so impossible like this one did. Thanks, hartbeatmr!

              hartbeatmr



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              Re: SB Audigy LS MIDI
              « Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 01:17:41 PM »
              Good day toejamtea and welcome back

              I am very happy that you are all set with your issue.

              I have not tried your instructions that you wrote up and when I get a chance I will.

              Please come back if there is anything else that we can help you with, Mike
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