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Author Topic: Time for a new OS, reborn  (Read 11744 times)

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rogerk8

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    Time for a new OS, reborn
    « on: October 18, 2012, 12:48:30 PM »
    Hi!

    Due to the obvious risk of being locked I will keep this attempt nice.

    MS Excel is the best program Microsoft has ever designed (I mean that).

    But newer versions are simply too and unneccesarily complicated (I use a vintage version, i.e 97).

    Most people don't need all the features that today comes with a program.

    My point is that new programs, more often than not, are larger and thereby consumes unneccesary CPU power.

    My vision is that applications should be scaled down to a minimum when we buy them. If we then want additional featutres, like f.i 100 fonts & sizes instead of only one, then we could simply buy it. Module for module.

    But we do not need all these features by default. And it slows down the processor...

    Because I love my simple and primitive Excel-97 so much, I f.i want to add that it do not have that childish animated paper clip. Because who needs that? Really? Grandma, or?  :D

    One more benefit with my vintage version is that it can do log-log plots. Which I haven't found in later versions (2003).

    This is either because I suck at windows or that the program has been adapted to economics (with bar-grahs and other useless stuff).

    My vision is to be able to speed things up while keeping the amazing and simple concept of single-cored processors intact and at the same time keep the visual or audial experince nice.

    Because let's face it, where is the computer evolution headed, really?

    Multiple-cored processors will not solve the problem in the long run.

    Neither will sci-fi quantum-computers or the like do (probably).

    Because what should we do later on when all programs has mutated to even larger ones? Use 100 cores?

    Of course not.

    We should use the resolution that is NEEDED for the specific application. And not generally "good to have, I can compress it later".

    In the long run, precompressing by f.i directly use 8-bit audio instead of 16-bit (read that this automaticly gives an addional 30 times in compression compared to MP3) my idea might not work either.

    But if we refrain from designing bigger and bigger programs, my solution will hold and everyone will get their resolution, quality and speed they want. We got all the advanced HW that we need! It is a software problem!!

    It is interesting to note that camera manufacturers compete with number of pixels. There's lots more to fotographing than resolution. I f.i bought a camera recently. It had some 8 MPIX. But I only wanted to upload the pictures to fb and other chat forums like yours. I finallly found a feature which could compress the pictures from default 3,5MB to some 130kB. I was happy there for a while but I realized that I wanted the camera to take the pictures with the low resolution by default. Guess what? It was not possible!

    So here is yet another point to my vision.

    But if I wanted to manufacture a (very) large photo to hang on my wall then yes, higher resolution is (for fun) needed.

    Take care!

    Best regards, Roger
    PS
    Attaching yet another fun picture of my pet project







    [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]
    « Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 01:05:26 PM by rogerk8 »

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
    « Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 04:29:37 PM »
    Due to the obvious risk of being locked I will keep this attempt nice.
    it's probably going to get locked anyway.

    Quote
    MS Excel is the best program Microsoft has ever designed (I mean that).
    Subjective. Excel is mostly useless to me, personally. My vote would go to Visual Studio.

    Quote
    But newer versions are simply too and unneccesarily complicated (I use a vintage version, i.e 97).
    People said the exact same thing about Excel 97 compared to Excel 5.0. My point is that some people are resistant to change but unaware of it, so they come up with ad hoc justifications for their pre-existing biasses. I'm not super-fond of the ribbon, myself, but recognizing that I am more against the change itself rather than the result of that change helps.

    Quote
    Most people don't need all the features that today comes with a program.
    Very true.

    Quote
    My point is that new programs, more often than not, are larger and thereby consumes unneccesary CPU power.
    demonstratably false. Larger programs to not consume more CPU. Additionally, This ignores the issue that unused CPU cycles are wasted cycles anyway; if a program uses 50% CPU and completes half as fast as if it used all the available capability, what good has it achieved, other than wasting time? OS thread scheduling could be used to make processes low-priority so that they never take cycles away from other processes. My point being that it is silly to have some idea that unused CPU cycles contribute positively to performance, because they don't, for obvious reasons.

    Quote
    My vision is that applications should be scaled down to a minimum when we buy them. If we then want additional featutres, like f.i 100 fonts & sizes instead of only one, then we could simply buy it. Module for module.
    The installations do provide options to enable and disable various features of the application. One such feature includes Installing the features only when they are used.

    Quote
    But we do not need all these features by default. And it slows down the processor...
    Again, the former is why options are provided during installation. The latter is demonstratably false; code that doesn't execute does not effect overall execution speed.

    Quote
    One more benefit with my vintage version is that it can do log-log plots. Which I haven't found in later versions (2003).
    XY Scatter chart, select desired sub-chart type, and change both axes to log. Plots are now found as part of the chart Module (and yes, it quite literally is a separate component, exactly the type of functionality you suggested!), because they both are a graphical representation of data.


    Quote
    This is either because I suck at windows or that the program has been adapted to economics (with bar-grahs and other useless stuff).
    Fact is that while you consider it useless, a lot of other people probably don't. They don't just add these features willy-nilly- they add them through user feedback and testing. A good example of this is that they found a lot (vast majority) of people using Excel for lists of data- more like a database. So they changed features to better suit that workflow, even though arguably it could have been said to be beyond the scope of the program.

    I often see people use Excel as a database too...

    Quote
    My vision is to be able to speed things up while keeping the amazing and simple concept of single-cored processors intact and at the same time keep the visual or audial experince nice.
    But at what point is a single-cored processor no longer a singler-cored processor? It could be argued that the original Pentium's SuperScalar architecture and dual pipelines offered simultaneous execution of instructions, so isn't it effectively the same concept?

    Quote
    Multiple-cored processors will not solve the problem in the long run.
    What problem?

    Quote
    Neither will sci-fi quantum-computers or the like do (probably).
    There is no way to know how post-von nuemann machines will work.

    Quote
    Because what should we do later on when all programs has mutated to even larger ones? Use 100 cores?
    This is a typical debate strategy (and fallacy) which basically takes the oppositions concept and inflates it to ridiculous proportions. The fact of the matter is that multiple cores and parallel processing are the future simply because we cannot make a single core go much faster. We've reached the clock speed limit; therefore the hardware industry is moving forward by multiplying the number of cores. This is not really a new thing, either; servers have had multiple processors for quite a long time (mid 90's at least) for the reason that they are handling a lot of different tasks simultaneously and so multiple processors and/or cores are better than the approximation of concurrency used for a single processors, which have a high overhead in terms of context switches.

    Quote
    We should use the resolution that is NEEDED for the specific application. And not generally "good to have, I can compress it later".
    using your later example: let's say you took a photo exactly for what you needed on the web. so it came out 640x480. That serves your need.

    But what if later you decide "hmm, that would make a pretty cool poster". You're screwed- all you have is 640x480. You can't make a poster out of it, and you can't take the picture again for obvious reasons. You've essentially fenced off what you are able to do with the image by virtue of deciding that you will never need to do X with it, without understanding at the time that needs and requirements change.

    Quote
    In the long run, precompressing by f.i directly use 8-bit audio instead of 16-bit (read that this automaticly gives an addional 30 times in compression compared to MP3)
    No it doesn't. using 8-bits per sample instead of 16-bits per sample is going to reduce size exactly by half for obvious reasons. And it sounds much worse.



    Quote
    But if we refrain from designing bigger and bigger programs, my solution will hold and everyone will get their resolution, quality and speed they want.
    At the time. But if the needs for that data change, they're screwed. Not a very future proof scenario, but since you advocate the use of architecture-dependent assembly language this lack of foresight comes as no small surprise.

    Quote
    It is interesting to note that camera manufacturers compete with number of pixels. There's lots more to fotographing than resolution. I f.i bought a camera recently. It had some 8 MPIX. But I only wanted to upload the pictures to fb and other chat forums like yours. I finallly found a feature which could compress the pictures from default 3,5MB to some 130kB. I was happy there for a while but I realized that I wanted the camera to take the pictures with the low resolution by default. Guess what? It was not possible!
    I don't know what camera you have (well, that's a lie, you have a Coolpix S6150) but every single digital camera I've used has had a feature built in that let's you change the resolution. Unfortunately on at least one occasion I switched it to 1024x768 and forgot afterwards to increase the resolution, which effectively ruined a few images. (you can't get 1024x768 images developed). If I had "forgotten" the other direction, though, creating the appropriate sized image would be a matter of resizing the larger one. Making an image smaller is easier than trying to make it larger, because it doesn't try to create data where there is none. (This is also one of the reasons that the "digital enhancement" stuff shown on TV is ludicruous- more than once I've seen a show have "security footage" of a perp or something where the face was maybe 8 pixels, and they basically say "enhance" and the program has somehow managed to create millions of other pixels pretty much out of thin air.

    Quote
    But if I wanted to manufacture a (very) large photo to hang on my wall then yes, higher resolution is (for fun) needed.

    The issue here is that you are assuming that, at the point of capture, a person is going to know every single possible usage for a recording or image. They won't.


    Also: regarding the image, What exactly are we looking at there? All I see is a few IC chassis with some resistors, capacitors, and LEDs attached. Also, what progress has been made since Sept 22nd, when the picture was taken? Are they integrated into some more functional unit? I imagine they are supposed to be plugged into the various IC bases that are part of the "motherboard/test board" unit whose image you posted earlier, taken in June?
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    patio

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    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
    « Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 04:55:36 PM »
    I shoulda left this locked...
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    foxidrive



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    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
    « Reply #3 on: October 18, 2012, 05:29:35 PM »
    rogerk8,

    You don't have a multiple core processor do you?  Or you haven't ever loaded it fully.
    A single core CPU that is fully loaded will stop responding but a multi core CPU will allow you to access the OS and fix things, such as killing the process that is taking all of a CPU core.

    Multiple CPU cores allow better usefulness.  Science can do more processing on multiple cores. 
    You can run SETI@Home on your multlple cores while doing other things - or human protein folding, or other distributed computing projects. 

    Just one other point - programs with more options don't necessarily slow down a CPU, they use more RAM.   


    rogerk8

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      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
      « Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 05:44:25 PM »
      Hi!

      How do I reply to this amazing and educational input?  ;)

      How much am I not learning just by expressing my crazy thoughts?  :)

      With regard to the argument for 8-bit audio for DRASTICLY increasing CPU speed, I confess that that was stupid!  ;D

      But dual cores is also stupid. This is because it only increases speed twice and that probably is a happy(!) estimation (please correct me if I'm wrong).

      Because I suck at windows I do not understand how to make such nice quotes like you do, so this will have to do:

      My statement :

      "Because what should we do later on when all programs has mutated to even larger ones? Use 100 cores?"

      Your reply:

      "This is a typical debate strategy (and fallacy) which basically takes the oppositions concept and inflates it to ridiculous proportions. The fact of the matter is that multiple cores and parallel processing are the future simply because we cannot make a single core go much faster. We've reached the clock speed limit; therefore the hardware industry is moving forward by multiplying the number of cores. This is not really a new thing, either; servers have had multiple processors for quite a long time (mid 90's at least) for the reason that they are handling a lot of different tasks simultaneously and so multiple processors and/or cores are better than the approximation of concurrency used for a single processors, which have a high overhead in terms of context switches."

      I still think that this is the wrong approach for the future. Multiple cored processors will not solve our future need for faster and faster computers (which "incompetent" software companies, no name, will indirectly require). This is simply exactly because of what you say with "We've reached the clock speed limit". And I say "we can't use 100 cores in the same space. We must reduce the amount of unneccesary data chewed by our poor processors". I know I sound like a dinasour, but I mean well  :D

      I also know, I'm getting boring but let's consider this:

      My friend (the one I "hated" for a while) got in contact with a friend in the USA. His friend asked him what type of computer he had. My friend said a Mac running at 30MHz. His friend said, well that's prehistoric! But yet he could still keep in contact with his friend. One more thing, did his computer take 100 times longer to start than mine? Guess what, no!

      I'm sorry, but I keep on insisting that the programming can be made to be much more efficient than today.

      One final example:

      Today my beloved collegue and friend fixed a computer password problem. It ran Windows 7. It had a processor of 2,2 GHz and 2GB of RAM.

      Turning on the computer took a while but not that irritating. Logging in took however over a minute! Clicking around yielded the (actually quite nice) new type of timeglas (a rotating circle). And whatever we did yielded that same timeglas. Wait, wait, wait, that is.

      Windows...

      Is this the future? I hope not!

      One more and final thing (I promise):

      With regard to photographing I understand your point. And I have learned. I discussed it with my friend today. I almost (obs) immediatelly understood that if you take a picture of pure resolution you can not increase the resolution afterwards.

      So this version of my point might not be so good. Unless you only want to use it in smartphones or for uploading to nice chatrooms like this. I.e bragging about how good you are :D

      I thank you all for replying so nicely to my topic. I saw at work today that there was an answer but I was actually afraid to read the answer...I love beer!  :D

      With regards to your final fun comment BC, here are the facts:

      I am actually that much of a drunk that I tremble so much that I can't solder my CPLD to the arrived Schmartboard. So I am trying desperatelly to make one of my collegues to do it for me. I have tried for a month now but nothing happens. It is not so strange either, because who wants to stay after work just to help a friend (well, I would). But nothing happens. So I'm getting more and more frustrated (again). Who should I begin to "hate" this time?  :D

      Best regards, Roger
      PS
      Attaching the architecture of my CPU.  ;)












      [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
      « Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 06:43:33 PM »
      But dual cores is also stupid. This is because it only increases speed twice and that probably is a happy(!) estimation (please correct me if I'm wrong).
      This is not the way to think about it. Multiple Cores don't increase speed by a direct factor of the multiple of cores anymore than the Dual pipeline architecture of the original Pentium doubled it's speed. I already explained why Dual and more cores are helpful speed wise: the fact is that at this point, the large set of processes running on a machine (and even for individual programs, which often can benefit from doing multiple things simultaneously) started to require almost as much overhead in terms of context switching between processes (eg. concurrency being used to emulate asynchronous execution). There were basically two ways to solve that issue, which involve either cranking up the clock speed (which is only possible to a certain point, and clock speed is hardly an indicator of anything anymore, given the fact that a Celeron processor is usually clocked about twice the speed of processors with far better performance. The other was to add multiple core dies to the same processor. This would alleviate the context switches (since for each X added core you reduce the number of context switches X-fold).

      Quote
      Because I suck at windows I do not understand how to make such nice quotes like you do, so this will have to do:
      To paraphrase Charles Babbage- "I cannot rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that would lead to this statement"... Quoting on this forum has nothing to do with Windows...

      Quote
      I still think that this is the wrong approach for the future. Multiple cored processors will not solve our future need for faster and faster computers
      Two problem with this involve the fact that you assert essentially to have an inside track to the knowledge of exactly what our future needs will be for faster computers; Otherwise, how would you know that parallelism was not a solution to those as of yet unseen issues?

      Quote
      (which "incompetent" software companies, no name, will indirectly require).
      This expresses a complete misunderstanding of how the software industry works, in general- a completely understandable one, mind-you, but the best way to see would be to go back to the original 8088.

      Naturally, we had 8088 programs, written (usually) in x86 assembly. Intel, of course, has released far more chips after the x86. the 80186 doesn't count (not being in consumer machines) but the 286 introduced new instructions and a new execution mode. These new features were not "required" by the software of the time, and at first a 286 system really just performed like a faster 8088. But eventually, programmers started to move towards the new platform, and use the new features of the architecture. This had two repurcussions: first, the programs written in assembly essentially had to be rewritten. Even though the 286 and 386 had very similar cycle-eaters, it added at least one new one (the data alignment cycle eater) that meant that a lot of hand-tuned Assembly written for the 8086/8088 Processors, while performing faster on the 286 or 386 (because of reduced wait states and an overall improved architecture) had to be rewritten for maximum performance on them. Most of them never got rewritten, simply because it wasn't worth the effort. On the other hand, Once compilers (such as the C compiler) were updated to use new instructions, those programs simply needed to be recompiled to take advantage of the new processor features. This is particularly the case starting around the Pentium, when new Instruction  sets were designed more around their use by a compiler than by their use by a programmer working in assembly. (And the number of rules about speed, cycle eaters and the various instructions raised exponentially both because of change to a superscalar architecture (Pentium) as well as simply because they were so different from their predecessors.

      When the 386 came around, it "finished" protected mode- the exploitation and use of which in a program required a rewrite almost entirely, since it used a completely different memory addressing scheme; Additionally, it had it's own gotcha's that either made 8088 assembly optimizations pointless (for example, using a byte-sized values in preference to word-sized ones on a 8088 was a common optimization because of it's 8-bit external data bus, but this advantage completely disappeared with the 286 (which was 16-bit through and through) as well as the 386 (which was 32-bit through and through, the 386SX notwithstanding).

      the 8-bit bus cycle eater (which ate cycles by virtue of limiting the bus size to 8-bits). One might reasonably think that with the 386 and the 286, that cycle eater went away, particularly since the 8088 prefetch queue cycle eater is a side-effect of that 8-bit bus, as well as the fact that the 286 and 386 have larger prefetch queues than the 8088 (6 bytes for the 286 and 16-bytes for the 386), and can perform memory access and instruction fetches in fewer cycles. But it doesn't, for several reasons. For one thing, instructions that branch will still empty the prefetch queue, so instruction fetching slows down after most branches. When the queue is empty, it doesn't really matter how big it is. (Branching on these processor should be avoided anyway, on account of it taking second cycles apiece).

      Anyway, as we went through new hardware, the software evolved to take advantage of it. Hardware was not pushed forward by software; hardware just inexorably marched forward, and software companies came along for the ride. For example, the much chagrined release of Vista brought with it a collosal change in the form of the desktop OS actually exploiting the capabilities of the graphics card available on most modern systems. Most people thought this was silly, but the point is that at an XP desktop, the graphics card is basically sitting there. Some people spend hundreds of dollars on a graphics card, so having it do the same job that a 12 dollar special GPU could do seems rather silly. Sure, they could play... Quake 3 or whatever and do timedemos, but outside games, you don't even see that expensive hardware. Same for memory; many PCs had 1GB or 2GB of memory (at least); XP didn't use it. It almost always sat unused. So Vista added a memory disk cache (SuperFetch) that used that memory to increase performance.

      Quote
      This is simply exactly because of what you say with "We've reached the clock speed limit". And I say "we can't use 100 cores in the same space. We must reduce the amount of unneccesary data chewed by our poor processors". I know I sound like a dinasour, but I mean well  :D
      I think what you might be confusing here, is that for example- If you run Vista on a 1GB machine with a dual core 2.33Ghz it might boot in say... bah... maybe 25 seconds? I dunno. But if you put, say, Windows 95 on it, it boots in mere seconds. So one might surmise that the Windows 95 machine is actually making better use of the hardware. But it is fact it's underutilization of the machines capabilities that make it appear fast. it uses only a small portion of the available memory, CPU capabilities (both in terms of clock speed as well as instruction sets) and so forth; the result is that you are not really running Windows 95 on a new Intel i7 (or what-have you) but what is effectively a really-really fast Pentium

      Anyway, for the future, since software follows hardware, there is no reason to think that software requirements will somehow march past the capabilities of the hardware  This is why parallelism is the software future: since the only way to go forward hardware wise is with multiple cores (due to the quantum tunnelling issue) software is going to follow.

      Quote
      My friend (the one I "hated" for a while) got in contact with a friend in the USA. His friend asked him what type of computer he had. My friend said a Mac running at 30MHz. His friend said, well that's prehistoric! But yet he could still keep in contact with his friend. One more thing, did his computer take 100 times longer to start than mine? Guess what, no!
      Oh, good. a Friend of a friend story. a Mac SE can be used for browsing, but it is definitely not fast at it. It also makes the same mistake as above. Of course, most older machines can be used for modern purposes, if you are willing to use older software and wait a bit longer. For example, I'm sure there are IRC clients available on systems such as that Mac that work perfectly fine. However, At the same time, I doubt there is a 3d-modelling tool comparable to the current versions of 3ds max in terms of capabilities. So it depends entirely on what somebody wants to do. Most of the systems people are buying today are far overpowered for what they will be used for (web browsing and E-mail) so the effect is that with that many overpowered machines, software has marched forward so that web browsing and E-mail has taken advantage of that otherwise untapped power.

      Quote
      I'm sorry, but I keep on insisting that the programming can be made to be much more efficient than today.
      However, you've yet to provide anything other than anecdotal evidence toward that cause.

      Quote
      Today my beloved collegue and friend fixed a computer password problem. It ran Windows 7. It had a processor of 2,2 GHz and 2GB of RAM.

      Turning on the computer took a while but not that irritating. Logging in took however over a minute! Clicking around yielded the (actually quite nice) new type of timeglas (a rotating circle). And whatever we did yielded that same timeglas. Wait, wait, wait, that is.

      Windows...

      Is this the future? I hope not!
      likely confirmation bias. (same story, IMO, with all the 'terribleness" of Windows ME).

      Quote
      With regard to photographing I understand your point. And I have learned. I discussed it with my friend today. I almost (obs) immediatelly understood that if you take a picture of pure resolution you can not increase the resolution afterwards.
      Actually today graphics artists are more arguing amongst themselves about whether to use 32-bits-per-pixel at all; the debate now is whether it is worth it to go to 128 bits per pixel (with each colour component being a full 32-bits). This is of course completely silly as far as making graphic images for websites or programs is concerned. However, where it get's relevant is when dealing with hard-copy print and magazines, since smooth gradients can occasionally have clear "lines" on them as a result of the lower colour resolution (paired with the colour conversion to CMYK for print).

      naturally, of course, This is a feature only used by print artists, but consider for a moment that a lot of print artists get their subjects from a digital camera, and one could make the case for digital cameras to even have the ability to capture that amount of information. (In fact, most graphic artists that employ digital photography have digital apparatus that costs several thousand dollars with advanced capabilities such as that, simply because it is something that such a person is going to need for their work.


      Quote
      I am actually that much of a drunk that I tremble so much that I can't solder my CPLD to the arrived Schmartboard. So I am trying desperatelly to make one of my collegues to do it for me. I have tried for a month now but nothing happens.
      Uuuh... not sure how to respond to that. I'm pretty sure there is a language issue here because reading this at face value I would have to come to the conclusion that you drink heavily at work...

      Quote
      Attaching the architecture of my CPU.
      Schematic, rather.











      [/quote]
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      rogerk8

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        Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
        « Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 07:40:38 PM »
        Jesus, how much do you not keep on amazing me?!

        Extremely intresting to read your input!

        I love it and feel honored all the time!

        I think we can close this topic now. :D

        I have nothing more to add.

        I rest my case!  ;D

        Except perhaps for more stupid pictures of my never ending pet project  :D

        But I do have to comment on this one:

        "Uuuh... not sure how to respond to that. I'm pretty sure there is a language issue here because reading this at face value I would have to come to the conclusion that you drink heavily at work..."

        I am laughing my *censored* off!  :D

        Take care!

        Best regards, Roger
        PS
        Attaching a picture of another passionate interest of mine

        [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

        DaveLembke



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        Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
        « Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 10:13:57 PM »
        You seem to like LEDS! if thats your passion.    ;) Why are you making your analog electronics modular with those IC thru hole component sockets. I have only seen these used many years ago when using different "analog" modes. Also lots of time soldering the LEDS to the correct polarity when they make LED bar arrays which are better and more professional looking for a final product such as linked: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lumex/SSA-LXB10IGW-GF/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvnlkTg8UMATwn7m4RH1JwofoFCSpZH5AY%3d

        rogerk8

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          Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
          « Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 02:15:37 PM »
          Hi!

          Thank you DaveLembke!

          The problem with your nice solution is that I am using standard 16-pin DIL sockets. I use 16-pin to be able to display one byte (or two nibbles actually) at the same time. The LED-arrays you so kindly suggested are however of 10 "bits" per module. It do therefore not fit so nicely as my hand-soldered "byte"-arrays does. It was however nice to see that you were actually able to choose color on the array. If you had special 30-pin sockets, that is. Thank you!

          Now I turn to BC.

          Here are my thoughts and questions after once again having read all your nice inputs:

          1) What is context switches?
          2) What is cycle-eaters?
          3) What is superscalar architecture (Pentium)?
          4) Pentium, 32-bit wide address AND data bus?
          5) Pentium I = fastest single core available (100MHz)?
          6) Vista, a good example?  ;D
          7) What is SuperFetch?
          8) Hardware pushing software forward. Is this really true?
          9) 32-bits times RGB = 96-bits and not 128?
          10) CMYK?
          11) SS-Drives and lower speed at the bus destroys my point! (even though SSDs are capacitively small and expensive)
          12) With "automaticly generated code" I think they are using predefined functions with lots of available parameters while only using a very few each time (please correct me if I'm wrong).
          13) There is no line b, should be before beep, yes?
          14) I am beginning to love C :-)
          15) I suck at computers :-)

          The ones that have followed my topic know that I mean no harm.

          I just want faster computers.

          And I can't see why we can't have them today already.

          I mean that the hardware is fully developed, but the software sucks.

          It might however be the other way around, but I will not signe under that.

          I mean that the (single core) processors are fast enough.

          And we need to think about program size (how fun is it to see a program load?) and file size (what is the real use for 24-bit picture resolution?).

          I further more offer a speed-increase of (only) twice for 8-bit audio files (in your smartphone of which you can't hear the difference in you poor iPhone standard ear-phones).

          Consider this:

          Your smartphone/iPad screen is as large as perhaps 4" times 4". This means 10000 mm, roughly.

          If you appreciate fast downloading and reallly don't care how you see the actual pictures, then you migth have 10000 pixels or one per mm^2 ). This is a rough picture but it downloads fast...)

          While each pixel (in practice) has to be 3 bytes (one per color, RGB) you will now have a picture of only 30kB. Which will load very fast. Considering a "bad" connection of 1M bit/s, this will only take approximatelly 1s (but modern connections are way better than that).

          If you are a real speed-freek, you may even tell your operator that you want them in back & white only. Hightening the speed 3 times more!

          Because let's face it, don't we want the higher resolution at home (only)?

          So what does it matter then that our portable machines don't have the highest resolution?

          I for one loves speed. And maybe to be able to select that, the one I want to enlarge and put on the wall, Often you can ask your friend to resend it in higher color resolution...

          I know this is kind of silly, but I do think I have some kind of point here.

          Another crazy example:

          My friend at work told me he had bought an actual functional phone for not more than 10 bucks! (poor chinese people...).

          It was a Samsung and you could both text and make phonecalls with it(!)

          And it had a stand-by time of over two weeks. Two weeks!!

          Consider then these new and "neccesary" smartphones.

          How long is their stand-by time? 2 DAYS?!

          And how much more useful are they, actually?

          Aren't they just more fun?

          Because they are for sure not that much more useful (I don't care about "useless" apps).

          Finally here is an irrelevant example:

          The first tube amp I ever built (Williamson 2X6W pure Class A) let me play as load so that the neighbours came knocking.

          This was before I reached the fantastic sound-level that began to distort (in that nice way only tube amps can).

          Consider also that most of us play at not much more than "noon" at the volume knob.

          This means that the output power is actually "maximum output power" DIVIDED by 10.

          So if you have an amp of say 2X50W, you do not play much more than 2X5W while you are having your party (in your appartment).

          Yet, this is a high sound level, is it not?

          Conclusion:

          You do not need all this power or resolution!

          Take care you all!

          Best regards, Roger





          « Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 02:27:31 PM by rogerk8 »

          BC_Programmer


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          Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
          « Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 07:43:58 PM »
          Here are my thoughts and questions after once again having read all your nice inputs:
          OK! I'll go through each one :)
          Quote
          1) What is context switches?
          As you know, Operating Systems for the last decade or so have had some method of multi-tasking. Today, this is done with threads. Threads are managed by the OS Kernel. A Context switch is basically when the OS goes from one thread, puts it on "hold" and starts executing another thread. With multiple cores, there are fewer context switches because more threads can be run simultaneously. For example, let's pretend we had 16 threads. With a single core machine, that means that there are going to be 16 context switches to go through all the threads of execution. With two cores, however, 8 threads could be on one, and 8 on the other, meaning that there will only be half as many context switches (A context switch only occuring when the context of execution of a given core changes (eg. when the scheduler switches out the stack frame and heap between two threads on the same core).

          Quote
          2) What is cycle-eaters?
          "Cycle eater" is a term used by assembly programmers when referring to instructions, or sequences of instructions, that take more time than one would normally expect. This is normally a result of other parts of the system contributing to a delayed execution time of the given instructions. The term "cycle-eater" here is from Michael Abrash's book, "Graphics Programming Black Book" which focuses on the use of Assembly Language for direct programming of the hardware in DOS: Directly from an early chapter:

          Quote
            I call these cycle-eaters because, like the monsters in a  bad  50s horror movie,
          they lurk in those shadows, taking their  share of your program’s performance with-
          out  regard  to the  forces of goodness or  the  US. Army. In this chapter, we’re going  to
          jump right  in  at  the  lowest  level  by  examining  the  cycle-eaters that live beneath  the
          programming  interface;  that  is, beneath your application, DOS, and BIOS-in  fact,
          beneath  the  instruction set itself.
          Why start at  the  lowest  level?  Simply  because cycle-eaters  affect  the  performance  of
          all assembler code, and yet are almost unknown to most  programmers.  A full under-
          standing of code optimization  requires an  understanding  of  cycle-eaters and their
          implications. That’s no simple task, and in fact it is in precisely that  area  that  most
          books and articles about assembly programming fall short.
          Nearly  all  literature on assembly programming discusses  only  the programming inter-
          face: the instruction set, the registers, the flags, and the BIOS and DOS calls. Those
          topics  cover  the functionality  of  assembly  programs most  thoroughly-but  it’s  perfor-
          mance above  all  else  that we’re  after.  No one ever  tells  you  about  the  raw  stuff  of
          performance, which  lies  beneath  the  programming  interface, in the dimly-seen  realm-
          populated  by  instruction prefetching, dynamic RAM  refresh, and wait  states-where
          software meets hardware. This area is  the domain of hardware engineers, and  is almost
          never  discussed  as  it relates to code performance. And  yet  it is  only  by understanding
          the mechanisms  operating  at this  level  that we  can  fully  understand  and  properly im-
          prove the  performance  of our code.
          Which brings us to cycle-eaters.

          By example, some of the major cycle eaters of the 8088 are it's 8-bit external data bus, it's prefetch queue, Dynamic RAM refresh, and Wait states. The thing about these cycle eaters is that they aren't really documented; however, it's worth realizing  that the people writing Compilers are well-versed in assembly language, and therefore are almost always aware of these cycle eaters. In fact, in addition to changing the instructions being used, choosing different target processors usually means different output to account for the various cycle-eaters present on different processors.

          Quote
          3) What is superscalar architecture (Pentium)?
          A "SuperScalar" Processor implements a form of instruction-level parallelism. It's basically a sort of "multiple core" processor, but each functional unit is not a separate core but an execution resource inside the single CPU; such as the ALU, bit shifter, multiplier, etc. Basically they will often execute more than one instruction during a single clock cycle by simultaneously dispatching multiple instructions to redundant functional units on the processor. One might wonder what this has to do with assembly language: well, using instructions carefully a good assembly programmer might be able to interleave instructions to try to maximize the number of instructions run concurrently. (A Compiler, on the other hand, will be able to do that...)

          Quote
          4) Pentium, 32-bit wide address AND data bus?
          iirc Original Pentium has a 32-bit wide internal bus and address bus, and a 64-bit external data bus.

          Quote
          5) Pentium I = fastest single core available (100MHz)?
          No. I went with the Pentium processor because it is the first with a Superscalar architecture, which is still a single core but is practically two 486 processors on a single die; (referred to as the U pipe and the V pipe) with the second one being stripped down. Since the discussion more or less revolves around multiple cores, and the purpose of multiple cores is simultaneous execution, I was establishing the fact that processors were using simultaneous execution long before we had multiple cores in consumer machines.
          Quote
          6) Vista, a good example?  ;D
          Not sure I follow. A good example of what? Most of the speed issues with Vista were a result of manufacturers loading the machines down with crapware, and not because Vista required hardware that exceeded what was available at the time. What exceeded the hardware capabilities was Vista plus a few hundred useless pieces of crapware, which is quite a different Ostrich egg.

          Quote
          What is SuperFetch?
          Windows Vista and 7 cache commonly used files on the disk in unused areas of System Memory that would otherwise be idle. Basically, it's a disk cache. The effect is a noticable speed improvement, which is more pronounced with more Memory. (One of the big advantages being that people with Gobs of memory no longer have it sitting idle when they aren't playing Skyrim).

          Quote
          8) Hardware pushing software forward. Is this really true?
          Yes. That's why I said it. Intel/ AMD release hardware with new capabilities. Software cannot be written to take advantage of those new capabilities until the processor is released or at least documented, so it's a bit difficult to try to follow the idea that software is driving hardware forward to any sort of conclusion.
          Quote
          9) 32-bits times RGB = 96-bits and not 128?
          32 bits of Red, Green, Blue, And Alpha. are 128 bits.
          Quote
          10) CMYK?
          Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and blacK. used for printing. Printers use pigments and not light so they use Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow as primary colours.

          Quote
          12) With "automaticly generated code" I think they are using predefined functions with lots of available parameters while only using a very few each time (please correct me if I'm wrong).
          Ironically, this sort of thing is far more common in Assembly via Macros.

          Quote
          13) There is no line b, should be before beep, yes?
          I'm not sure what you are referring to, though I do remember providing a "beep" function of sorts in Assembly and C. Can't seem to find it but I recall posting it, so I think that is what you are referring to.

          The bug, for what it's worth, was that the Assembly version beeped one too many times.
          I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

          rogerk8

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            Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
            « Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 01:37:18 PM »
            Hi!

            What is Alpha? Intensity, or? I thought only RGB was needed.

            It seems that I know less about computers than I thought. And this kind of explains it all.

            I do however still think that:

            1) We do not need all the features a program nowadays provide (this will just make it load/start more slow than neccesary)
            2) We do not need the hysterical resolution that nowadays are common (but the long-term use is hard to predict...)
            3) I am not certain anymore but it seems like we could write more code-effective programs (using single cores and assembly)
            4) Multiple cores are not the future in the long run (because there's a limit on how many cores you can actually use)
            5) Maybe the problem (read slow computers) isn't the high-level language. Maybe the problem is badly designed compilers.

            I know I am being stubborn but this is what I think.

            My next generation of CPU (using a FPGA instead of a CPLD) I think will have a 32-bit wide address bus and 16-bit wide data bus.

            But if I fail at this (or maybe both) I would like to buy a similar CPU on the (second hand) market.

            What kind of CPU should I look for?

            486?

            It doesn't matter if both the address bus and the data bus is 32-bit wide. But I kind of like the asymmetry because this is how my first CPU will work (if I ever get it to work, that is).

            Finally, you have taught me that assembly do not work so well with multiple cores. So that is another reason why I stick to my belief.

            I think I have said all I wanted to say.

            Take care!

            Best regards, Roger
            PS
            Attaching the schematic of my CPU. And yes, the other one above was more of a block-diagram than a picture of the actual architecture.

            Because I'm so bad at computers but at same time very interested (especially in hardware), could you please recommend a book I should read? It need perhaps not be for dummies but approximatelly at that level. I am very interested in hardware protocols (like the formatting of an hard drive f.i) and the way a (modern) computer actually work. All hardware considered. And drive routines (freely translated from swedish)  :)

            If it isn't you Mr G, then it's got to be you Mr B!  :D



            [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]
            « Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 01:47:59 PM by rogerk8 »

            BC_Programmer


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            Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
            « Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 07:13:53 PM »
            What is Alpha? Intensity, or? I thought only RGB was needed.
            Per-pixel blending. Essentially translucency. For photo's it's not typically used, but it's used heavily in graphics for blending. Obviously, once the image is "complete" it is merged into a single layer and depending on use-case it will probably be 24-bit or 32-bit. If it's for the web usually it get's optimized to an 8-bit palette. Big issue being that 8-bit palette means one-bit Alpha (essentially a transparency mask).

            Quote
            1) We do not need all the features a program nowadays provide (this will just make it load/start more slow than neccesary)
            It does not increase load or start times. in and of itself.
            Quote
            We do not need the hysterical resolution that nowadays are common (but the long-term use is hard to predict...)

            That depends. New laptops are coming out with resolutions as high as 2560x1440/ In order to take advantage of this extra fidelity, raster images are going to have to be larger and have a greater resolution, or Scalable graphics will need to be used. The later can be more processor intensive than the former at a cost of transfer size.

            Quote
            3) I am not certain anymore but it seems like we could write more code-effective programs (using single cores and assembly)
            I already explained this.  I'm not sure if I should bother to explain it again, but I will- saying there is a major divide between single core and multi-core machines is fallacious: again, the first Pentium was essentially two 486 processors. Why does having those two execution units in a single core suddenly change it? The processor needs special attention by assembly programmers (and compiler writers) for performance improvements, in particular taking advantage of dual execution pipes. If you are saying that my statements about the Pentium's dual execution pipes means single core processors are "better" to use, than you are mistaken since the Pentium processor is a single core processor.


            Quote
            4) Multiple cores are not the future in the long run (because there's a limit on how many cores you can actually use)
            There is only such a limit using imperative programming. Functional Programming as well as languages like Erlang that discard the current ideas about concurrent programming techniques (such as threads) and instead favour the functional style of immutable data structures as well as a different concurrency concept; which can either be in the form of tasks, coroutines, or "processes". These languages will automatically take advantage of as many cores as exist on the machine, and are heavily used for large server machines with 64-cores as well as distributed computing models.

            Quote
            5) Maybe the problem (read slow computers) isn't the high-level language. Maybe the problem is badly designed compilers.
            part of the problem is people with a similar idea to you that think they "know better" than the compiler writers and essentially write Assembly in a high-level language. The result is that their code is even slower... so they blame the compiler, even though they took steps to subvert it.

            Another important point with regards to this is- let's go with the assumption that Assembly is indeed more efficient overall than other High Level Languages. Therefore, we can declare that the current end products are not as efficient as possible. So we allegedly should be taking efforts to make them more efficient.

            Even following this logic there are several fallacies. The best example would be a analogy. Let's go with cars since that is so popular in Computing analogies. The same could very well be said of car manufacturers- They use Steel,Plastic, and Aluminium... but I mean, wouldn't cars be better and more efficient if they were made out of Tungsten? They would, indisputably. The metal has a very high melting point so it would essentially be heat resistant, and it's practically indestructible.

            But building cars out of tungsten is fundamentally a bad idea. First, Tungsten is not cheap, and it takes longer and is more expensive to machine. Second, we have the problem that in a car accident the tungsten metal could become a cage that traps victims; the "jaws of life" tool that firefighters use to get into wrecked cars would be garbage, since the tungsten would be pretty much indestructible. So there is an overall safety issue.

            Of course the answer is for people to "not crash their cars" but that is obviously not a realistic Expectation. Accidents happen. Additionally, All these extra costs would all just be passed on to the consumer.

            The same would be true of a modern application being written in Assembly language. The development costs would be exorbinantly higher than even using a language like C, for very little gain; and the consumer would be the one to bear the brunt of the costs. A Triple-A game such as skyrim costs around 60 dollars today, and took maybe 5-6 years to develop. If the entire thing was written in Assembly, it would be in development for maybe three times as long, cost 6 times as much, and the speed improvement wouldn't matter because in 6 years even the cheapest possible machine would be able to run it on the highest settings. It's also worth remembering that early on, when games <had> to be written in Assembly to be performant, they cost much the same as they do now. The Advantage that high-level languages have provided is to make larger projects more managable. Compare the Second Ultima (which cost I believe over 100$) to Skyrim. Skyrim is indisputable a more complex project overall, but the fact is that the complexity is managed well with higher-level languages and modular design. Ultima II was written in Assembly, but is plagued with problems- first the programmer used a large variety of undocumented "hacks" to the PC platform that modern system either discard entirely and emulators cannot emulate. The end result is that The game cannot even be made playable on a modern machine. That is, While the game was finicky at the time, it's now essentially useless without hardware from that era. A Program that doesn't run at all cannot be proclaimed efficient- and that isn't to even account for the constant divide errors one get's because the game wasn't designed to run on today's faster computers. Basically the entire argument falls apart- Assembly language was fine when the resulting program was only going to be one on a specific type of machine whose various specifications were well known (such as the PDP-11) but today, the variety of hardware available and it's different capabilities mean that any assumption is basically invalidating future portability. It doesn't matter how fast or efficient a program is if you cannot run it at all.



            Quote
            If it isn't you Mr G, then it's got to be you Mr B!  :D

            I don't know who Mr G is, and I don't know who Mr.B is. My last name starts with B but then again if you did even the most basic research (eg. my blog->main website->Name on bottom footer) you could easily find out my full name and reach the conclusion that I am neither of these people who you have conjectured me to be.

            I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

            rogerk8

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              Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
              « Reply #12 on: October 25, 2012, 04:17:28 PM »
              Hi!

              Could someone please explain Alpha in laymen terms. I do not understand english so well. But as far as I understand, RGB is enough. And I can't understand why it isn't always enough.

              As usual it is always interesting to read your marvellous input, BC.

              And yes, I had already looked at your fantastic blog.

              Guess what? I did not understand a single thing  ;D This is simply because I suck at programming languages. So when I saw all your fantastic programming examples I just came to the conclusion that this was nothing I could learn from (even if I wanted...)

              One nice thing though that struck me by reading the first part of you blog was that we are on the same quest. That is faster computers!

              I did however think that you wanted to stay anonomous (and wouldn't have your actual name even in the blog), so I didn't even try to search for your name. Actually, when you recently did describe how to, I didn't find it then either. But it doesn't matter now. You are a skilled and nice guy, and I am at least a nice guy. Who doesn't know it all, that is  ;)

              Take care!

              Best regards, Roger Knopp
              PS
              Attaching a picture of my CPU progress. Just got 156 more wires to solder...

              [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

              TechnoGeek

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              Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
              « Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 04:29:34 PM »
              Could someone please explain Alpha in laymen terms. I do not understand english so well. But as far as I understand, RGB is enough. And I can't understand why it isn't always enough.

              Alpha is transparency. This is important in graphics use, especially on the internet, where the graphics artist can specify certain parts of the image as a mixture of red, green, and blue plus a transparency amount. 0 = transparent, 255 = opaque. If you have a square of red (#FF0000) plus alpha (80, 50%) this results in a pinkish square on a white background, but on a blue background it will look more purple. Essentially, alpha is a technique used for color blending. Another use is thus: because images are always rectangular, a circle requires the circle itself, but the outside must be either a solid color, or transparent, which will allow the image to be used seamlessly on any color background.

              rogerk8

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                Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                « Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 05:04:07 PM »
                Thank you, Technogeek!

                I still think I do not understand this. But I can appreciate the difficulties for color to appear correctly at different backgrounds. And this might not be as simple as ordinary RGB-blending (yielding all the rainbow colors). But I have never heard of this before. It amazes me! And that fascinates me. Because a CRT did not have a "forth" cannon. It was only RGB.

                In short this means that one pixel do not only need three bytes (256 levels for each color) it also needs a fourth byte (the Alpha-byte), yes? And this is always embedded in ordinary pictures, or? So you have to calculate with four bytes per pixel? Is this true?

                Best regards, Roger

                TechnoGeek

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                Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                « Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 05:41:06 PM »
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_compositing here is more information about Alpha compositing (also called Alpha Transparency).

                Most monitors do indeed only have three channels (RGB); the Alpha compositing is done by the application or toolkit rendering the images (WebKit, Trident, or Gecko for most browsers and their web pages, dwm.exe for Aero in Win7, or other graphics libraries depending on the libraries used by a program.)
                The calculated colors after combining them (50% transparent red + 50% transparent blue = something like pink) is what is sent to the monitor.

                rogerk8

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                  Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                  « Reply #16 on: October 28, 2012, 04:59:24 PM »
                  Hi TechnoGeek!

                  This alpha-thing confuses me.

                  What is it's actual use?

                  I have read the Wikipedia article but I got no wiser (probably because I do not understand english so well...)

                  I have never heard of RGB not being enough (my RGB-armed CRT TV worked quite well...)

                  It seems like you want to be able to control the color intensity by a separate variable/channel.

                  But you can do that with ordinary RGB.

                  I don't see the point.

                  Other than some academic convenience.

                  Because when do you need to compare two images and select the "strength" of the combined color?

                  Isn't the picture just changing, yielding a new RGB-combination for the pixel?

                  Without really knowing what I'm talking about, this seems as pointless as multiple cores!

                  Do however please answer this, are ordinary pixels in my Nikon-taken photos stored as three or four bytes?

                  Best regards, Roger
                  PS
                  Attaching a picture of my CPU progress.

                  It is the CPLD-Schmartboard unit.

                  I now have only two steps left:

                  1) Mechanically stabelizing the unit on the "Mother Board" by using 4 pcs of short thick solid wires in the corners.
                  2) Make small hooks at the end of the 208 wires and mechanically tie them to each board pin before I solder them (some wires are stripped a bit short so this will probably not go so smooth as you might think).

                  [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

                  TechnoGeek

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                  Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                  « Reply #17 on: October 28, 2012, 05:53:55 PM »
                  Hi TechnoGeek!
                  This alpha-thing confuses me.
                  What is it's actual use?
                  I have read the Wikipedia article but I got no wiser (probably because I do not understand english so well...)
                  Wikipedia isn't only in English... just click your language on the left side of the page.

                  Quote
                  I have never heard of RGB not being enough (my RGB-armed CRT TV worked quite well...)

                  It seems like you want to be able to control the color intensity by a separate variable/channel.

                  But you can do that with ordinary RGB.

                  I don't see the point.

                  Other than some academic convenience.

                  Because when do you need to compare two images and select the "strength" of the combined color?

                  Isn't the picture just changing, yielding a new RGB-combination for the pixel?

                  Without really knowing what I'm talking about, this seems as pointless as multiple cores!
                  If you actually read the article, you'll understand. It's very useful in web design and with graphics that have to be used in a variety of locations -- windows icons are a good example. When you look at a round icon (like firefox, ie, or google chrome,) the icon has an alpha-value of 0 for the transparent parts -- the parts around the circle. this lets it show on any desktop background without being an icon on a white box shape.

                  Quote
                  Do however please answer this, are ordinary pixels in my Nikon-taken photos stored as three or four bytes?
                  Probably not. Alpha transparency has to be added in by an image editor when you actually need to use it.

                  rogerk8

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                    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                    « Reply #18 on: October 28, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »
                    Hi TechnoGeek!

                    But why would you want to project the background through your image?

                    I am however beginning to understand now.

                    Don't feel like you have to answer this.

                    Best regards, Roger
                    PS
                    The swedish description was actually rediculously short. But the graphical explanation was way better than yours!

                    I am attaching the picture.

                    [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

                    BC_Programmer


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                    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                    « Reply #19 on: October 28, 2012, 06:57:59 PM »
                    Why is it always the people who claim to know so much that end up knowing so little?
                    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                    rogerk8

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                      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                      « Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 07:45:11 PM »
                      Maybe it is because we see the simple solutions where you brain-washed people only see the modern solutions.  ;)

                      TechnoGeek

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                      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                      « Reply #21 on: October 28, 2012, 07:49:23 PM »
                      Maybe it is because we see the simple solutions where you brain-washed people only see the modern solutions.  ;)

                      If you think there's a better solution to transparency than an alpha channel then by all means describe it... I'm failing to see here how your  'simple' solutions you describe are actually better than what's being done already (our 'modern' solutions, a lot of which are actually not that recent)

                      BC_Programmer


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                      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                      « Reply #22 on: October 28, 2012, 08:46:33 PM »
                      If you think there's a better solution to transparency than an alpha channel then by all means describe it... I'm failing to see here how your  'simple' solutions you describe are actually better than what's being done already (our 'modern' solutions, a lot of which are actually not that recent)

                      Well, it certainly isn't because he's a heavy drinker and when "under the spell" he frequently gets the idea that his long running project (which so far  just seems to be a bunch of ICs stapled together that may or may not actually work to do something) Might not be a healthy thing to waste decades with, so he's decided that, when not inebriated, he will try to catch on to the tassels of any nearby pole-stripping idea and hold on for dear life, no matter how hard we "brainwashed people" try to pull him from the teat he will continue to suckle it long after it has been rendered into a dried mammary husk.

                      It's certainly NOT because of that.
                      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                      TechnoGeek

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                      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                      « Reply #23 on: October 28, 2012, 08:52:27 PM »
                      That post is easily one of the most entertaining things I've ever read, BC...  ;D

                      rogerk8

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                        Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                        « Reply #24 on: October 29, 2012, 06:13:28 AM »
                        Hi!

                        I hope you wasn't offended by my swenglish expression.

                        I think it came out wrong.

                        What I wanted to say was more like:

                        "Sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees"

                        Best regards, Roger

                        rogerk8

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                          Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                          « Reply #25 on: October 29, 2012, 03:59:21 PM »
                          Just to make you envious  8)

                          [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

                          patio

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                          Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                          « Reply #26 on: October 29, 2012, 04:15:08 PM »
                          No offense...but i'll be envious only when it's up and running...
                          Hopefully before this Topic is closed...
                          " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

                          BC_Programmer


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                          Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                          « Reply #27 on: October 29, 2012, 04:35:47 PM »
                          "Sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees"

                          OK, now this expression has it's uses, and is certainly applicable in some situations. many software projects lose focus. However, you cannot go and apply it to everything. it's an expression, not a generalization that can be used to justify half-cocked ideas.

                          Sometimes, a simpler approach works, and solves the problem. Occasionally a problem analysis overcomplicates things.

                          However, it doesn't fundamentally give merit to ideas. If an idea or solution is actually a case of "seeing the forest through the trees" than an analysis would have people in the know going "Wow, why didn't I think of that" rather than thinking you are a one muffin short of a dozen. Now you may think it's fair to agree to disagree, and I certainly do as well, but I am not about to agree that your ideas "Might have merit" because, plain and simple, none of what you presented really has any merit whatsoever; in fact, you don't even have a solution. You just say they aren't making programs as efficient as they could possibly be. I agreed. But the fact is t hat the reason programs aren't made as efficient as they need to be is because they don't have to be, for the same reason we can make cars out of steel and plastic rather than pure tungsten or shuttle-grade titanium, even though the latter would result in a "more efficient" vehicle, it's also not economically feasible.
                          I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                          rogerk8

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                            Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                            « Reply #28 on: October 29, 2012, 04:53:04 PM »
                            Hi BC (and Patio)!

                            I hear what you are saying and appreciate your kindness and wiseness.

                            Will you however let me post the below before we continue?

                            I was just about to post it when I got a warning that there were two more replies.

                            Here it comes. Grab hold of something  ;)

                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Well ok BC, I have now decoded your input.

                            These were the words I had to look up:   :)

                            inebriated=berusad
                            tassels=tofs
                            teat=bröstvårta
                            suckle=amma
                            mammary=(däggdjurs)bröst-
                            husk=värdelöst yttre skal

                            I find your input non-insulting (and quite funny actually). It was just an adequate response to my rather stupid remark and, most of all, my stubborness.

                            When it comes to the alpha-channel I simply just find it as useless as multiple cores. Ordinary RGB is and will always be good enough.

                            Because believe me, I have tried to find a single situation that transparency really is needed, but I can't find any.

                            But maybe I am actually stupid.

                            Guess what?

                            I don't care  ;D

                            Best regards, Roger

                            BC_Programmer


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                            Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                            « Reply #29 on: October 29, 2012, 07:19:23 PM »
                            Quote
                            When it comes to the alpha-channel I simply just find it as useless as multiple cores. Ordinary RGB is and will always be good enough.
                            Alpha is used in images for compositing.

                            Consider it this way. A Game, or other piece of software, that has a customizable background. The software or game has a title screen, and they want it to have a "drop shadow" on the text. This means they either draw that drop shadow manually in the source code (consuming extra CPU time) make a separate image for every single possible background image, or simply use an extra translucency channel on another image. This let's the same optimized blitting code to be used to blit the new image and composite it over the original, creating a new image. Another important thing is that a lot of programs generate full, 32-bit bitmaps on the fly for various purposes for compositing. usually in a layered approach: for example, when a given object changes shape, the program might create a translucent drop shadow image, and cache that for later use. Then when it does use it, it might create the composited version (with the normal image and the "drop shadow" image, with the former drawn on top of the latter) and cache that for drawing purposes.

                            For the purpose of actual display, 24-bit RGB is usually plenty. but when <creating> that 24-bit RGB image to be shown on-screen, Alpha can be used to composite various images to save both CPU time as well as disk or memory space. Without sacrificing appearance.

                            But even then: 24-Bit RGB isn't enough for everything, since the color space literally cannot show every single possible colour. This is, as I noted earlier, particularly prevalent with the purposes of desktop publishing or printing, both because of the different color space but also because sRGB cannot represent certain tones and colours with 100% accuracy, which can result in the output in a screen looking different on a printer. This of course is partially unavoidable, since screens are likely to use RGB colorspaces for the foreseeable future- but locking the images themselves to use the RGB Colorspace can be a problem in these cases because the original information is lost in the conversion to the colour space.


                            I have tried to find a single situation that transparency really is needed, but I can't find any.
                            And you've accused us of not having imagination... It's translucency, really; but 1-bit transparency masks are useful too, for many of the same reasons. If it wasn't for transparency masks and transluscency, every single icon used in today's GUI systems would have the same color background.
                            I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                            rogerk8

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                              Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                              « Reply #30 on: October 30, 2012, 01:13:49 PM »
                              Hi BC!

                              I surrender!  :D

                              I totally get it now. Thanks to you.

                              But I can't see why more than one bit resolution is neccesary.

                              Because either you want the background to be visible or you don't want the background to be visible.

                              When we have established this we may reduce the neccesary amount of data per pixel by 25%.

                              This is because I think 24-bit RGB resolution is somwhat more than enough.

                              So we could reduce that to 7-bit resolution for, at least, one color and thereby inject the "Alpha-bit" into one of the color bytes. Making a pixel being defined by 3 bytes only.

                              Because if we really need this kind of "useless" feature we need at least one more bit. And while memories are organized in bytes, we might just make it 8-bit (or so people seems to think).

                              But this is a waste of data because I think 7-bit RGB-resolution still will suffice. For most of us anyway...

                              And remember, this Alpha-bit will only make things, such as icons, look nicer.

                              Moving forward in my quest for faster computers  ;)

                              Best regards, Roger

                              BC_Programmer


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                              Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                              « Reply #31 on: October 30, 2012, 02:59:43 PM »
                              I totally get it now. Thanks to you.
                              Quote
                              But I can't see why more than one bit resolution is neccesary.

                              These two statements are contradictory. I just explained why.

                              Look at your shadow- cast on the ground it doesn't make a pitch black shadow, you can still see the ground fine. translucency is necessary for similar effects- such as drop shadows or just general shading- on a graphic.



                              Quote
                              When we have established this we may reduce the necessary amount of data per pixel by 25%.
                              A little over 21 percent.


                              Quote
                              So we could reduce that to 7-bit resolution for, at least, one color and thereby inject the "Alpha-bit" into one of the color bytes. Making a pixel being defined by 3 bytes only.
                              Now we have the problem that it will take additional time to process in order to extract that pixel data out of the packed bytes. This is also the reason why 5-6-5 bit packing for RGB is not used (16-bit colour is typically less performant than 24-bit RGB).

                              Quote
                              Because if we really need this kind of "useless" feature we need at least one more bit. And while memories are organized in bytes, we might just make it 8-bit (or so people seems to think).
                              has nothing to do with how memory is arranged. And everything to do with the fact that the processor deals with bytes, and anything smaller requires bit manipulation, which in this case would increase processing time over the use of something with a larger size.

                              Quote
                              But this is a waste of data because I think 7-bit RGB-resolution still will suffice. For most of us anyway...
                              So you end up with a smaller file, but that file is both more complicated to read, more complicated to write, and more complicated to manipulate, which results in taking longer to work with in the first place.

                              Quote
                              And remember, this Alpha-bit will only make things, such as icons, look nicer.
                              What is your point? Are you now saying that, we should all reserve ourselves to dealing with computers that have text only interfaces and monochrome screens, all in the futile pursuit of some holy grail of a fast computer? What a ridiculous notion. The idea isn't to make programs as efficient as possible, but as easy to use for the user. What you are asking for is the return of the elite status where computer users actually required some sort of skill. But the fact is that there is no reason to keep things that way. Why shouldn't computers be easier to use?

                              I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                              rogerk8

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                                Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                « Reply #32 on: October 30, 2012, 04:25:00 PM »
                                These two statements are contradictory. I just explained why.


                                I didn't get it.

                                Quote

                                Look at your shadow- cast on the ground it doesn't make a pitch black shadow, you can still see the ground fine. translucency is necessary for similar effects- such as drop shadows or just general shading- on a graphic.


                                Who cares?

                                Quote

                                A little over 21 percent.


                                1 over 4 equals 25%

                                Quote

                                has nothing to do with how memory is arranged. And everything to do with the fact that the processor deals with bytes, and anything smaller requires bit manipulation, which in this case would increase processing time over the use of something with a larger size.


                                Sure it does. But I see your point. It is probably harder for the CPU to extract that kind of awkward information.

                                Quote

                                So you end up with a smaller file, but that file is both more complicated to read, more complicated to write, and more complicated to manipulate, which results in taking longer to work with in the first place.


                                I hear you. And you are probably right here.

                                Quote

                                What is your point? Are you now saying that, we should all reserve ourselves to dealing with computers that have text only interfaces and monochrome screens, all in the futile pursuit of some holy grail of a fast computer? What a ridiculous notion. The idea isn't to make programs as efficient as possible, but as easy to use for the user. What you are asking for is the return of the elite status where computer users actually required some sort of skill. But the fact is that there is no reason to keep things that way. Why shouldn't computers be easier to use?


                                My point is that computers should be customized for skilled and interested people like you and (perhaps even me someday) and not for grandma or a threeyearold. I think that that is just rediculous! If they need a computer, they could just buy some customized childish version of an OS (like Windows). I for one certainly hate that using and knowing about the computer itself isn't an art anymore. And I stand by that statement. It is simply boring nowadays. You never need to know what actually is happening inside the fantastic machine, you just need to "click". Computers are fantastic machines but I think that mainly technicians should be the ones to be able to fully control them (and not the other way around). So yes, you have revealed my achilles-heal.  ;D

                                Best regards, Roger

                                BC_Programmer


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                                Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                « Reply #33 on: October 30, 2012, 08:14:17 PM »
                                Quote
                                Who cares
                                Web designers, graphic artists, Programmers, UI designers, Game designers...

                                1 over 4 equals 25%
                                Yes it does. I was going with the assumption that we were keeping a one-bit transparency mask.

                                Quote
                                Sure it does.
                                not necessarily. it has to do with how the CPU extracts information from memory. The actual arrangement of memory doesn't make a difference. memory is laid out differently (virtually) in the different CPU modes (real, Virtual x86, protected) but this has little effect over how the CPU reads memory. Physically, Memory layouts have changed dramatically; RAM could be interleaved or be sequences in banks, none of which matters to the CPU (which slurps things up via the memory controller, which feeds the CPU what it needs). of course an argument could be made that the "arrangement" for memory to use bytes has to do with it, which is true, but at the same time without suggesting a direct alternative I fail to see this as a particular constructive point.

                                Quote
                                It is probably harder for the CPU to extract that kind of awkward information.
                                it is. There is no 'probably' involved here. If each item is a byte, than reading the RGBA values is a case of reading four bytes. if we made them 7 bits each, we would still be using four bytes anyway, but rather than directly reading them we would have to perform various bitwise operations to get the proper values.

                                Quote
                                My point is that computers should be customized for skilled and interested people like you and (perhaps even me someday) and not for grandma or a threeyearold.
                                Ahh- I see. You're an elitist douchebag. I suppose we should only let skilled engineers buy and use microwaves, and force everybody else to just use an easy-bake oven?

                                Quote
                                I for one certainly hate that using and knowing about the computer itself isn't an art anymore.
                                knowing how to use a computer should not be an "art" anymore than being able to hold a paintbrush should be an art.


                                Quote
                                You never need to know what actually is happening inside the fantastic machine, you just need to "click".
                                Do you know what is happening inside a microwave when you use it? or a traffic light? or a PINpad? These are details And when you are focused on the task these details get in the way. Your argument could easily be extended to making sure that only people with an MIT degree and a business doctorate in finance are able to use a debit card. The argument fundamentally is about elitism. programmers, and even computer users- and evidently yourself- loved that smug sense of superiority they could get because they were familiar with a specific command line or what-have-you compared to the "unwashed masses" so they are, naturally, against the adoption of any technology that takes away their position of power. In those days the operator was a powerful being. They controlled what went into the machine, so the unwashed masses had to bow to their demands; otherwise they could decide to "lose" a users punch cards or "forget" to retrieve the printed output. This extends into the "DOS age"; I know about Extended Memory, Expanded Memory, Conventional Memory, High Memory Area, Upper Memory Blocks, File Control Blocks, etcetera. But does  this make me "smarter" than a person who just wanted to use Lotus 1-2-3? Should that person have to bow to my knowledge just to manage some financial spreadsheets?. No. That's downright ridiculous. Their job isn't to know what Expanded Memory or Extended memory or any of that NONSENSE is. It's a implementation detail and it should only be something that needs to be known by either the curious or those that write the software.


                                Quote
                                Computers are fantastic machines but I think that mainly technicians should be the ones to be able to fully control them (and not the other way around). So yes, you have revealed my achilles-heal.  ;D
                                There is no reason for "mainly technicians" to control how computers are used. They aren't smarter than everybody else. This is the type of superiority complex that really annoys me to see in IT. Yes, Me, and probably you, know some things about how Computers work. Good for us, and if we can use that information for our various goals, good for us.

                                But, here's a news flash. Some people couldn't care less. Computers are a tool to them, and you know what, they are a tool. They aren't some magnificent creation that we need to bow down and worship, and only have specially trained priests and priestesses operate and consort with.  Fact is, I'm not smarter than my neighbor because I can replace my hard drive. I'm not smarter than the old lady down the street because I can write programs. Fact is the only reason there are people like yourself clinging to what is fundamentally a religious zealotry to the superiority of those who "understand the machine" (and since you didn't know what a cycle-eater was, I somewhat doubt that in your case, to be fair), putting the operators on a pedestal as priests and priestesses to machines.
                                [/quote]

                                I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                rogerk8

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                                  Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                  « Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 01:10:43 PM »
                                  Hi BC!

                                  Firstly I want to apologize for "Who cares?"

                                  It came out wrong.

                                  I meant something more like "I do not find that neccesary".

                                  I do appreciate that you still write so much and interesting stuff to me. Thank you!

                                  Due to my bad self confidence I partly drink, partly try to get a grip about something I really do not know so much about. I want some confidence in the use of computers. I need some confidence in computers. And I can't get that by using Windows (but as you already know, I love MS DOS. But that doesn't mean that I can handle or understand it. I only know a very few commands). This is because I do not know what is actually happening. Or even how to enable that special feature I want. This makes me kind of sad because I do know how a simple CPU works, but I don't know anything about how a modern computer/OS works. So I have started this quest just to try to simplify and understand what all the fuzz is about. I am also that kind of person, which you already have discovered, that simply try to ignore things that I think is useless to me. And I feel that Windows is kind of useless to me. Simply because I do not understand a single thing (and I like to believe it can be made, if not better, then at least faster...)!

                                  I think you have judged me wrongly if you think I want to be among the elite. It has nothing to do with that. I assure you. But I do want to know more. Much more (as long as the knowledge is useful, permanent and not mutates every other year...). And I would never look down at people if they think they know less! On the contrary, I find it interesting if I can "educate" someone with the knowledge I have. It is f.i actually quite fun to be a teacher (I was that for a while). Don't you think so yourself? You do seem to know lots of things about computers and it keeps amazing me!

                                  Moving forward in my quest for faster computers...

                                  Would you mind explaining how drive-routines (swenglish, obs) work?

                                  I know that they are the interface between the hardware and the OS. But I know nothing about how an actual drive-routine works or what it may look like.

                                  It would also be interesting to hear you ideas about the neccessity for 64-bit computers. This is totally rediculous to me!

                                  I think that's enough for tonight. But I really hope you still want to try and answer my questions.

                                  Take care!

                                  Best regards, Roger
                                  PS
                                  Your calculation regarding the datareduction for a 1-bit Alpha-channel embedded in the "7-bit" RGB is of course right.

                                  Attaching my primitive CPU Instruction Set.

                                  [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

                                  rogerk8

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                                    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                    « Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 02:40:37 PM »
                                    Hi!

                                    I have come to the conclusion that we need two OS:es.

                                    1) One for grandma (go ahead and keep on using Windows).

                                    2) One for technicians (a faster and more down to machine version).

                                    I will try to write nr. 2.

                                    Does anyone want to help me?

                                    Best regards, Roger

                                    rogerk8

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                                      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                      « Reply #36 on: November 01, 2012, 01:17:59 PM »
                                      You accuse me of being a fanatic.

                                      But what is fanatic about wanting to design a faster and better OS than windows?

                                      I don't get it.

                                      Modern computers are rediculously much slower than they have to be.

                                      A clock frequency of the amazing 3GHz should yield a minimum of 1 BILLION instructions each second.

                                      Yet it takes my computer several minutes to start windows (XP).

                                      There IS something wrong here!!

                                      And I have never said that computers should be for the elite (or priests) only.

                                      Where the f-k did you get that idea from?!

                                      I just said that I don't like the kind of childish and non-interesting interface that windows represents.

                                      To me it seems like you are around 18 years old and do know lots about computers but you are actually indeed brainwashed if you think that modern (and often complicated) solutions are the best.

                                      I say that much can be done just by keeping it as simple as possible.

                                      I say that computer evolution no longer is an evolution, it is a stagnation!

                                      Regards, Roger
                                      PS
                                      Attaching a picture of some of my tedious micro programming.

                                      Which is one reason why I love MS Excel so much!

                                      [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

                                      TechnoGeek

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                                      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                      « Reply #37 on: November 01, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »
                                      You accuse me of being a fanatic.

                                      But what is fanatic about wanting to design a faster and better OS than windows?

                                      I don't get it.

                                      Modern computers are rediculously much slower than they have to be.

                                      A clock frequency of the amazing 3GHz should yield a minimum of 1 BILLION instructions each second.

                                      Yet it takes my computer several minutes to start windows (XP).

                                      There IS something wrong here!!
                                      Part of that limitation is the hard drive speed, which is MUCH slower than the CPU. If disk I/O was instantaneous, windows would boot at a much faster speed than it does now. SSDs have been shown in tests to perform faster startup than regular mechanical hard drives. Another part is everything involved in starting an advanced operating system such as windows -- security, user/system address space management, APIs, all kinds of device drivers, etc. etc... most recent versions of Linux and OS X don't seem to boot that much faster than recent versions of windows IMO.

                                      Quote
                                      And I have never said that computers should be for the elite (or priests) only.

                                      Where the f-k did you get that idea from?!
                                      Well, due to the magic of the [quote] tag, you can scroll up and see what exactly you said that prompted that response:
                                      http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php/topic,134049.msg864991.html#msg864991

                                      Quote
                                      I just said that I don't like the kind of childish and non-interesting interface that windows represents.

                                      To me it seems like you are around 18 years old and do know lots about computers but you are actually indeed brainwashed if you think that modern (and often complicated) solutions are the best.

                                      I say that much can be done just by keeping it as simple as possible.

                                      I say that computer evolution no longer is an evolution, it is a stagnation!
                                      I didn't realize anybody said anything about childish or non-interesting interfaces, neither of which seem very true to me either. Windows 7 is relatively fast, efficient if used properly, and it also looks nice at the same time. One problem with your proposed 'techie OS' is that those techies tend to make a living by providing support or programs for consumer operating systems. If you make this 'techie OS', techies will have to learn how to use and program for THAT as well as windows, OS X, and/or *nix systems. Not to mention the demand for a cross-compiler, or a native compiler and supported libraries for languages such as C. Why fix what isn't broken?

                                      Quote
                                      Regards, Roger
                                      PS
                                      Attaching a picture of some of my tedious micro programming.

                                      Which is one reason why I love MS Excel so much!
                                      Yes, Excel is great.

                                      You seem to be making a CPU, or something that interfaces with a CPU, from scratch. One of the problems with reinventing the wheel like this is that you will likely make the same design mistakes and decisions other people have many times over (I'm talking about early designs by companies like Intel, Motorola, and AMD). It will be a long time, I think, before you are able to make a CPU that even close to matches 'current' speeds, which by that time will probably have gone up even further.

                                      rogerk8

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                                        Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                        « Reply #38 on: November 01, 2012, 03:33:53 PM »
                                        Hi TechnoGeek!

                                        You are right, I actually said that.

                                        But I didn't mean exactly that. Which I think you now understand.

                                        I want to thank you for your nice input.

                                        In spite of me calling you skilled guys "brainwashed".

                                        Guess if I regret that?  :D

                                        But the expression "sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees" is just another NICER way of expressing the same thing. With the exception that that would even include me. Which it indeed does!

                                        SS-drives destroys my point. Which is why I kind of ignore that.  :)

                                        Yet, I think that much can be done by simplifying stuff.

                                        But I agree that with SSDs we do not need that.

                                        So it comes down to, either we continue using more and more data/resolution and those hysterical multiple-cored processors, or we stand back and critically consider what we really need.

                                        I for one certainly would like that modern amazing hardware would be used more effectively.

                                        I do however confess that I really don't know what I'm talking about. It's just a hunch!

                                        But I do not think I am a "fanatic".

                                        Take care!

                                        Best regards, Roger


                                        patio

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                                        Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
                                        « Reply #39 on: November 01, 2012, 04:05:28 PM »
                                        And sadly after statements such as these...

                                        Quote
                                        And I have never said that computers should be for the elite (or priests) only.

                                        Where the f-k did you get that idea from?!

                                        I just said that I don't like the kind of childish and non-interesting interface that windows represents.

                                        To me it seems like you are around 18 years old and do know lots about computers but you are actually indeed brainwashed if you think that modern (and often complicated) solutions are the best.

                                        I say that much can be done just by keeping it as simple as possible.

                                        ...it's my determination this Topic has come to a useless screeching halt...
                                        Hope all who participated enjoyed it...as i did up til now.

                                        Topic Closed.

                                        patio.
                                        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "