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Author Topic: Time for a new OS, reborn  (Read 11764 times)

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rogerk8

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    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
    « Reply #30 on: October 30, 2012, 01:13:49 PM »
    Hi BC!

    I surrender!  :D

    I totally get it now. Thanks to you.

    But I can't see why more than one bit resolution is neccesary.

    Because either you want the background to be visible or you don't want the background to be visible.

    When we have established this we may reduce the neccesary amount of data per pixel by 25%.

    This is because I think 24-bit RGB resolution is somwhat more than enough.

    So we could reduce that to 7-bit resolution for, at least, one color and thereby inject the "Alpha-bit" into one of the color bytes. Making a pixel being defined by 3 bytes only.

    Because if we really need this kind of "useless" feature we need at least one more bit. And while memories are organized in bytes, we might just make it 8-bit (or so people seems to think).

    But this is a waste of data because I think 7-bit RGB-resolution still will suffice. For most of us anyway...

    And remember, this Alpha-bit will only make things, such as icons, look nicer.

    Moving forward in my quest for faster computers  ;)

    Best regards, Roger

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
    « Reply #31 on: October 30, 2012, 02:59:43 PM »
    I totally get it now. Thanks to you.
    Quote
    But I can't see why more than one bit resolution is neccesary.

    These two statements are contradictory. I just explained why.

    Look at your shadow- cast on the ground it doesn't make a pitch black shadow, you can still see the ground fine. translucency is necessary for similar effects- such as drop shadows or just general shading- on a graphic.



    Quote
    When we have established this we may reduce the necessary amount of data per pixel by 25%.
    A little over 21 percent.


    Quote
    So we could reduce that to 7-bit resolution for, at least, one color and thereby inject the "Alpha-bit" into one of the color bytes. Making a pixel being defined by 3 bytes only.
    Now we have the problem that it will take additional time to process in order to extract that pixel data out of the packed bytes. This is also the reason why 5-6-5 bit packing for RGB is not used (16-bit colour is typically less performant than 24-bit RGB).

    Quote
    Because if we really need this kind of "useless" feature we need at least one more bit. And while memories are organized in bytes, we might just make it 8-bit (or so people seems to think).
    has nothing to do with how memory is arranged. And everything to do with the fact that the processor deals with bytes, and anything smaller requires bit manipulation, which in this case would increase processing time over the use of something with a larger size.

    Quote
    But this is a waste of data because I think 7-bit RGB-resolution still will suffice. For most of us anyway...
    So you end up with a smaller file, but that file is both more complicated to read, more complicated to write, and more complicated to manipulate, which results in taking longer to work with in the first place.

    Quote
    And remember, this Alpha-bit will only make things, such as icons, look nicer.
    What is your point? Are you now saying that, we should all reserve ourselves to dealing with computers that have text only interfaces and monochrome screens, all in the futile pursuit of some holy grail of a fast computer? What a ridiculous notion. The idea isn't to make programs as efficient as possible, but as easy to use for the user. What you are asking for is the return of the elite status where computer users actually required some sort of skill. But the fact is that there is no reason to keep things that way. Why shouldn't computers be easier to use?

    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    rogerk8

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      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
      « Reply #32 on: October 30, 2012, 04:25:00 PM »
      These two statements are contradictory. I just explained why.


      I didn't get it.

      Quote

      Look at your shadow- cast on the ground it doesn't make a pitch black shadow, you can still see the ground fine. translucency is necessary for similar effects- such as drop shadows or just general shading- on a graphic.


      Who cares?

      Quote

      A little over 21 percent.


      1 over 4 equals 25%

      Quote

      has nothing to do with how memory is arranged. And everything to do with the fact that the processor deals with bytes, and anything smaller requires bit manipulation, which in this case would increase processing time over the use of something with a larger size.


      Sure it does. But I see your point. It is probably harder for the CPU to extract that kind of awkward information.

      Quote

      So you end up with a smaller file, but that file is both more complicated to read, more complicated to write, and more complicated to manipulate, which results in taking longer to work with in the first place.


      I hear you. And you are probably right here.

      Quote

      What is your point? Are you now saying that, we should all reserve ourselves to dealing with computers that have text only interfaces and monochrome screens, all in the futile pursuit of some holy grail of a fast computer? What a ridiculous notion. The idea isn't to make programs as efficient as possible, but as easy to use for the user. What you are asking for is the return of the elite status where computer users actually required some sort of skill. But the fact is that there is no reason to keep things that way. Why shouldn't computers be easier to use?


      My point is that computers should be customized for skilled and interested people like you and (perhaps even me someday) and not for grandma or a threeyearold. I think that that is just rediculous! If they need a computer, they could just buy some customized childish version of an OS (like Windows). I for one certainly hate that using and knowing about the computer itself isn't an art anymore. And I stand by that statement. It is simply boring nowadays. You never need to know what actually is happening inside the fantastic machine, you just need to "click". Computers are fantastic machines but I think that mainly technicians should be the ones to be able to fully control them (and not the other way around). So yes, you have revealed my achilles-heal.  ;D

      Best regards, Roger

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
      « Reply #33 on: October 30, 2012, 08:14:17 PM »
      Quote
      Who cares
      Web designers, graphic artists, Programmers, UI designers, Game designers...

      1 over 4 equals 25%
      Yes it does. I was going with the assumption that we were keeping a one-bit transparency mask.

      Quote
      Sure it does.
      not necessarily. it has to do with how the CPU extracts information from memory. The actual arrangement of memory doesn't make a difference. memory is laid out differently (virtually) in the different CPU modes (real, Virtual x86, protected) but this has little effect over how the CPU reads memory. Physically, Memory layouts have changed dramatically; RAM could be interleaved or be sequences in banks, none of which matters to the CPU (which slurps things up via the memory controller, which feeds the CPU what it needs). of course an argument could be made that the "arrangement" for memory to use bytes has to do with it, which is true, but at the same time without suggesting a direct alternative I fail to see this as a particular constructive point.

      Quote
      It is probably harder for the CPU to extract that kind of awkward information.
      it is. There is no 'probably' involved here. If each item is a byte, than reading the RGBA values is a case of reading four bytes. if we made them 7 bits each, we would still be using four bytes anyway, but rather than directly reading them we would have to perform various bitwise operations to get the proper values.

      Quote
      My point is that computers should be customized for skilled and interested people like you and (perhaps even me someday) and not for grandma or a threeyearold.
      Ahh- I see. You're an elitist douchebag. I suppose we should only let skilled engineers buy and use microwaves, and force everybody else to just use an easy-bake oven?

      Quote
      I for one certainly hate that using and knowing about the computer itself isn't an art anymore.
      knowing how to use a computer should not be an "art" anymore than being able to hold a paintbrush should be an art.


      Quote
      You never need to know what actually is happening inside the fantastic machine, you just need to "click".
      Do you know what is happening inside a microwave when you use it? or a traffic light? or a PINpad? These are details And when you are focused on the task these details get in the way. Your argument could easily be extended to making sure that only people with an MIT degree and a business doctorate in finance are able to use a debit card. The argument fundamentally is about elitism. programmers, and even computer users- and evidently yourself- loved that smug sense of superiority they could get because they were familiar with a specific command line or what-have-you compared to the "unwashed masses" so they are, naturally, against the adoption of any technology that takes away their position of power. In those days the operator was a powerful being. They controlled what went into the machine, so the unwashed masses had to bow to their demands; otherwise they could decide to "lose" a users punch cards or "forget" to retrieve the printed output. This extends into the "DOS age"; I know about Extended Memory, Expanded Memory, Conventional Memory, High Memory Area, Upper Memory Blocks, File Control Blocks, etcetera. But does  this make me "smarter" than a person who just wanted to use Lotus 1-2-3? Should that person have to bow to my knowledge just to manage some financial spreadsheets?. No. That's downright ridiculous. Their job isn't to know what Expanded Memory or Extended memory or any of that NONSENSE is. It's a implementation detail and it should only be something that needs to be known by either the curious or those that write the software.


      Quote
      Computers are fantastic machines but I think that mainly technicians should be the ones to be able to fully control them (and not the other way around). So yes, you have revealed my achilles-heal.  ;D
      There is no reason for "mainly technicians" to control how computers are used. They aren't smarter than everybody else. This is the type of superiority complex that really annoys me to see in IT. Yes, Me, and probably you, know some things about how Computers work. Good for us, and if we can use that information for our various goals, good for us.

      But, here's a news flash. Some people couldn't care less. Computers are a tool to them, and you know what, they are a tool. They aren't some magnificent creation that we need to bow down and worship, and only have specially trained priests and priestesses operate and consort with.  Fact is, I'm not smarter than my neighbor because I can replace my hard drive. I'm not smarter than the old lady down the street because I can write programs. Fact is the only reason there are people like yourself clinging to what is fundamentally a religious zealotry to the superiority of those who "understand the machine" (and since you didn't know what a cycle-eater was, I somewhat doubt that in your case, to be fair), putting the operators on a pedestal as priests and priestesses to machines.
      [/quote]

      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      rogerk8

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        Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
        « Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 01:10:43 PM »
        Hi BC!

        Firstly I want to apologize for "Who cares?"

        It came out wrong.

        I meant something more like "I do not find that neccesary".

        I do appreciate that you still write so much and interesting stuff to me. Thank you!

        Due to my bad self confidence I partly drink, partly try to get a grip about something I really do not know so much about. I want some confidence in the use of computers. I need some confidence in computers. And I can't get that by using Windows (but as you already know, I love MS DOS. But that doesn't mean that I can handle or understand it. I only know a very few commands). This is because I do not know what is actually happening. Or even how to enable that special feature I want. This makes me kind of sad because I do know how a simple CPU works, but I don't know anything about how a modern computer/OS works. So I have started this quest just to try to simplify and understand what all the fuzz is about. I am also that kind of person, which you already have discovered, that simply try to ignore things that I think is useless to me. And I feel that Windows is kind of useless to me. Simply because I do not understand a single thing (and I like to believe it can be made, if not better, then at least faster...)!

        I think you have judged me wrongly if you think I want to be among the elite. It has nothing to do with that. I assure you. But I do want to know more. Much more (as long as the knowledge is useful, permanent and not mutates every other year...). And I would never look down at people if they think they know less! On the contrary, I find it interesting if I can "educate" someone with the knowledge I have. It is f.i actually quite fun to be a teacher (I was that for a while). Don't you think so yourself? You do seem to know lots of things about computers and it keeps amazing me!

        Moving forward in my quest for faster computers...

        Would you mind explaining how drive-routines (swenglish, obs) work?

        I know that they are the interface between the hardware and the OS. But I know nothing about how an actual drive-routine works or what it may look like.

        It would also be interesting to hear you ideas about the neccessity for 64-bit computers. This is totally rediculous to me!

        I think that's enough for tonight. But I really hope you still want to try and answer my questions.

        Take care!

        Best regards, Roger
        PS
        Your calculation regarding the datareduction for a 1-bit Alpha-channel embedded in the "7-bit" RGB is of course right.

        Attaching my primitive CPU Instruction Set.

        [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

        rogerk8

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          Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
          « Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 02:40:37 PM »
          Hi!

          I have come to the conclusion that we need two OS:es.

          1) One for grandma (go ahead and keep on using Windows).

          2) One for technicians (a faster and more down to machine version).

          I will try to write nr. 2.

          Does anyone want to help me?

          Best regards, Roger

          rogerk8

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            Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
            « Reply #36 on: November 01, 2012, 01:17:59 PM »
            You accuse me of being a fanatic.

            But what is fanatic about wanting to design a faster and better OS than windows?

            I don't get it.

            Modern computers are rediculously much slower than they have to be.

            A clock frequency of the amazing 3GHz should yield a minimum of 1 BILLION instructions each second.

            Yet it takes my computer several minutes to start windows (XP).

            There IS something wrong here!!

            And I have never said that computers should be for the elite (or priests) only.

            Where the f-k did you get that idea from?!

            I just said that I don't like the kind of childish and non-interesting interface that windows represents.

            To me it seems like you are around 18 years old and do know lots about computers but you are actually indeed brainwashed if you think that modern (and often complicated) solutions are the best.

            I say that much can be done just by keeping it as simple as possible.

            I say that computer evolution no longer is an evolution, it is a stagnation!

            Regards, Roger
            PS
            Attaching a picture of some of my tedious micro programming.

            Which is one reason why I love MS Excel so much!

            [year+ old attachment deleted by admin]

            TechnoGeek

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            Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
            « Reply #37 on: November 01, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »
            You accuse me of being a fanatic.

            But what is fanatic about wanting to design a faster and better OS than windows?

            I don't get it.

            Modern computers are rediculously much slower than they have to be.

            A clock frequency of the amazing 3GHz should yield a minimum of 1 BILLION instructions each second.

            Yet it takes my computer several minutes to start windows (XP).

            There IS something wrong here!!
            Part of that limitation is the hard drive speed, which is MUCH slower than the CPU. If disk I/O was instantaneous, windows would boot at a much faster speed than it does now. SSDs have been shown in tests to perform faster startup than regular mechanical hard drives. Another part is everything involved in starting an advanced operating system such as windows -- security, user/system address space management, APIs, all kinds of device drivers, etc. etc... most recent versions of Linux and OS X don't seem to boot that much faster than recent versions of windows IMO.

            Quote
            And I have never said that computers should be for the elite (or priests) only.

            Where the f-k did you get that idea from?!
            Well, due to the magic of the [quote] tag, you can scroll up and see what exactly you said that prompted that response:
            http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php/topic,134049.msg864991.html#msg864991

            Quote
            I just said that I don't like the kind of childish and non-interesting interface that windows represents.

            To me it seems like you are around 18 years old and do know lots about computers but you are actually indeed brainwashed if you think that modern (and often complicated) solutions are the best.

            I say that much can be done just by keeping it as simple as possible.

            I say that computer evolution no longer is an evolution, it is a stagnation!
            I didn't realize anybody said anything about childish or non-interesting interfaces, neither of which seem very true to me either. Windows 7 is relatively fast, efficient if used properly, and it also looks nice at the same time. One problem with your proposed 'techie OS' is that those techies tend to make a living by providing support or programs for consumer operating systems. If you make this 'techie OS', techies will have to learn how to use and program for THAT as well as windows, OS X, and/or *nix systems. Not to mention the demand for a cross-compiler, or a native compiler and supported libraries for languages such as C. Why fix what isn't broken?

            Quote
            Regards, Roger
            PS
            Attaching a picture of some of my tedious micro programming.

            Which is one reason why I love MS Excel so much!
            Yes, Excel is great.

            You seem to be making a CPU, or something that interfaces with a CPU, from scratch. One of the problems with reinventing the wheel like this is that you will likely make the same design mistakes and decisions other people have many times over (I'm talking about early designs by companies like Intel, Motorola, and AMD). It will be a long time, I think, before you are able to make a CPU that even close to matches 'current' speeds, which by that time will probably have gone up even further.

            rogerk8

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              Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
              « Reply #38 on: November 01, 2012, 03:33:53 PM »
              Hi TechnoGeek!

              You are right, I actually said that.

              But I didn't mean exactly that. Which I think you now understand.

              I want to thank you for your nice input.

              In spite of me calling you skilled guys "brainwashed".

              Guess if I regret that?  :D

              But the expression "sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees" is just another NICER way of expressing the same thing. With the exception that that would even include me. Which it indeed does!

              SS-drives destroys my point. Which is why I kind of ignore that.  :)

              Yet, I think that much can be done by simplifying stuff.

              But I agree that with SSDs we do not need that.

              So it comes down to, either we continue using more and more data/resolution and those hysterical multiple-cored processors, or we stand back and critically consider what we really need.

              I for one certainly would like that modern amazing hardware would be used more effectively.

              I do however confess that I really don't know what I'm talking about. It's just a hunch!

              But I do not think I am a "fanatic".

              Take care!

              Best regards, Roger


              patio

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              Re: Time for a new OS, reborn
              « Reply #39 on: November 01, 2012, 04:05:28 PM »
              And sadly after statements such as these...

              Quote
              And I have never said that computers should be for the elite (or priests) only.

              Where the f-k did you get that idea from?!

              I just said that I don't like the kind of childish and non-interesting interface that windows represents.

              To me it seems like you are around 18 years old and do know lots about computers but you are actually indeed brainwashed if you think that modern (and often complicated) solutions are the best.

              I say that much can be done just by keeping it as simple as possible.

              ...it's my determination this Topic has come to a useless screeching halt...
              Hope all who participated enjoyed it...as i did up til now.

              Topic Closed.

              patio.
              " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "