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Author Topic: Problems with Chat  (Read 11661 times)

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camerongray

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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2013, 04:51:35 PM »
From my experience Camerongray is more knowledgable in many areas than most of the other 'helpers' that appear in chat. The "warnings" and "discipline" so far seem to be designed to try to preserve authority and the other helpers sense of self-import rather than preserve any amount of high-quality help. While the latter may be the desired goal, Driving away helpful, knowledgable members only works towards the former goal.

His corrections- which are easily researched and confirmed- get shot down as fallacies without a second thought. He corrects not to ostracize, but to try to prevent the spread of fallacious information, because it reflects badly on the group; for example, stating that Windows Home Premium doesn't have Aero is a fallacy easily determined by Google, is something many people that could request help are going to know- once that comes out- if nobody tries to correct it, those seeking help might start to have second thoughts.

The only thing accomplished so far is to create a cabal of reasonably competent helpers that refuse to ever learn anything new because they are under the specious idea that people younger than them, or members that just joined the channel, cannot possibly know more than them. The fact that occasionally people will join the channel and get help is almost incidental.

Obviously I generally don't join the channel either. Usually because, like Camerongray, the urge to correct misinformation is strong. I am, however, cognescent enough to know that such attempts will cause nobody to learn anything and will probably just result in some sort of sidebar argument about it, or my favourite, "you're wrong, I will prove it by banning you, and making up a rule that we've totally always had in place to cover it".

Camerongray is younger than me and knows a lot more about running Servers, and who knows what else, than I do.

See, it's not that hard at all.
So this makes you pin the tab but me suggesting you lurk and post in the forum more often for something like 4 years doesn't?  >:(  :P

Thank you very much BC! :P

he should really understand that he is not the 'GOD of ALL  Knowledge '   Others who help have , in many cases, been far longer in the Business than he has , and also that they may also be evaluating the issue , to a) help the user understand the problem more  and the likely cause of it ,  and b) then provide the correct  'fix'   

In no way do I say that I know everything or even think that myself.  However, I do know when information is incorrect which I see a lot.[

I see no reason that a member should be banned over helping someone work out issues with code. The simple way of making sure that the conversation stays fluid is to simply announce who you're replying too.

ie. @camerongray - Thanks for the help with my code.

Thanks Craig.  Using the person's name sounds reasonable, it would be really cool if Mibbit implemented something like that so you could almost filter the chat to only show messages with your name and then have some way of helpers "locking" their client to start all messages with the persons name. Although that's obviously a long-shot!

I have spoken to the op who banned you and asked you be unbanned today...please don't make simple things such an issue in the future, I warned you guys 5-7 times before one of the ops acted.

Thank you very much!  I'll probably pop on later, I do agree I got a bit worked up but I would really like to see some big changes in chat to bring it back to what it was say 2/3 years ago!

bacon buttie



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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2013, 05:19:41 PM »
Here we go again, deviating from the reason why Cameron was banned and throwing a whole load of bullpucky into the mix..
His ban was nothing to do with his knowledge of computers but his continued persistence in questioning OPs and HOPs requests not to perform help in the chat room on certain subjects (coding / programing).
There is a good reason for this, discussing a possibly technical and in-depth subject in the chat room can, and often does cause confusion to both helpers and those seeking help.
The guest Cameron was requested not to help had already been told numerous times and kicked from the Chanel and warned after ignoring requests to take the matter to the forum.
Cameron was also kicked and warned as well but they both continued to carry on regardless, so after further warnings from the OP they were both banned.
As requested by Lostcoast, Cameron is now un-banned and welcome back in the room and I hope that this serves as a reminder to him that the OPs and HOPs have a role to perform and it is not a power trip or an ego trip but to try to keep some sort of order in the room and if the regulars can't do them the courtesy of following their reasonable requests without 101 questions then the OPs and HOPs are fighting a loosing battle.
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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2013, 05:27:40 PM »
His ban was nothing to do with his knowledge of computers but his continued persistence in questioning OPs and HOPs requests not to perform help in the chat room on certain subjects (coding / programing).
There is a good reason for this, discussing a possibly technical and in-depth subject in the chat room can, and often does cause confusion to both helpers and those seeking help.
The guest Cameron was requested not to help had already been told numerous times and kicked from the Chanel and warned after ignoring requests to take the matter to the forum.
Cameron was also kicked and warned as well but they both continued to carry on regardless, so after further warnings from the OP they were both banned.

This is not a reason to ban, this is simply a matter of Ops and Hops not doing their job and responding specifically. If you are too ignorant to type the name of the person you are responding too, then yes it can get confusing, that is in no way Cameron's fault.
As for the matter of the guest, any matter of computer question is valid as long as there is a person of knowledge to help. You need to rethink your argument.

Also, use a spell checker, or get Google Chrome. Your paragraphs are horrible.
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BC_Programmer


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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2013, 05:35:40 PM »
There is a good reason for this, discussing a possibly technical and in-depth subject in the chat room can, and often does cause confusion to both helpers and those seeking help.
Resolving various hardware and software issues can be technical and in-depth,  too. Yet from what I recall those topics are allowed to continue for quite some time. Why the distinction?

Quote
The guest Cameron was requested not to help had already been told numerous times and kicked from the Chanel and warned after ignoring requests to take the matter to the forum.
Kicked and warned for wanting help with a possibly technical and in-depth subject that is arbitrarily not allowed which (obviously only by coincidence) is not something that most of the helpers and H/OP's have experience with? If that was the stated reason, it would make perfect sense- no sense encouraging somebody to get assistance with something where the people might not generally be able to help, but it seems the reasoning is trying to avoid making that distinction.
Quote
Cameron was also kicked and warned as well but they both continued to carry on regardless, so after further warnings from the OP they were both banned.
Fair enough. It seems the problem here is that H/OP's dislike being questioned in the reasoning for the particular and arbitrary selection of what is allowed and not allowed. Of course, They are allowed to make those arbitrary and particular distinctions as much as they want, and they are of course perfectly free to ban, kick, etc people for any reason whatsoever. This is more or less the nature of IRC, really. But I think the overwhelming thought is- does that particular part of IRC really help people get help, or is holding onto the overruling ability of those in charge to decide arbitrarily when and which rules apply perhaps preventing people that look for help on the channel from having a positive experience overall?
Quote
I hope that this serves as a reminder to him that the OPs and HOPs are in charge and can do whatever they want for any reason they want
Fixed. Not meant in a negative way, again, it's the nature of IRC. A OP/HOP could ban/kick somebody because they don't like that their nickname has 13 letters if they wanted to. That's all perfectly fine, of course. But trying to say that such decisions come from an arbitrary, unspoken ruleset coming from a position of morality when it really just boils down to whatever they/you feel like doing at the time is being dishonest; perhaps not even on purpose.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

TechnoGeek

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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2013, 05:47:47 PM »
What's been said in this topic pretty much exactly parallels why I decided to stop participating in chat on the night of March 1st. (wow, that long already? :o )

Basically, I agree what BC has said. I tried to say something similar in the chat before I left but it obviously wasn't going anywhere. It probably didn't help that there were about 2 or 3 people, 5 at max, active in the room at the time. My 'rant' (and I'm not that proud of it now, believe me) was partially directed at one particular member -- the one who was in the chat at the time -- but it was meant to apply more generally. I personally felt and guessed that some other members felt afraid to help with problems or correct mistakes in chat because they weren't 'regulars' or moderators.

I'm honestly surprised that I was able to even speak (read: rant) for a full half hour without getting at least a kick from somebody. I tried my best to be as respectful as possible but it was really hard to do right then. Lostcoast left near the end of my rant having been quiet for a long time; I don't know how much he saw or cared enough about to intervene.

Speaking of: lostcoast is often said to be the 'only' moderator and he does seem very capable to me from what little interaction I've had with him, despite our differences. But what about the half-ops? There are several, about 5 or 6 at my last count, who have the power to ban or kick users. Again, many seemed very capable, respectful, and friendly to me and others. There were times, however, when some of these people and other members were, IMHO, acting downright rudely to guests and helpers.

The first few months of my relatively short stay in the chat, which started mid-July, were pretty okay I think. People got problems solved, incorrect advice was seldom given and called out on, etc. etc. In the last few months though, more incorrect advice and just bad information was being handed out. It was usually either not corrected, or whoever tried to correct it was shot down. That actually made computerhope look bad to me and rather unfriendly to guests and newer or less privileged members.

TL;DR? I think that all chat participants and helpers, including the mods, half-ops, ops, whatever they want to be called or whatever you call them, should keep in mind that they represent computerhope as a whole. Discouraging guests and other helpers is easier than you'd think, and for the sake of what Nathan has tried to build, please just remember that and try to make guests and volunteer helpers feel welcome and actually wanting to come back, instead of afraid of being yelled at for arbitrary reasons.

I'd say this exact same thing about the forums too, except that it doesn't seem to be a problem there. Whether it's the nature of IRC (likely) or which members frequent the chat (a bit less likely), it seems a much less friendly and encouraging environment than the forums and that's just sad.

camerongray

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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2013, 07:55:47 PM »
What's been said in this topic pretty much exactly parallels why I decided to stop participating in chat on the night of March 1st. (wow, that long already? :o )

Basically, I agree what BC has said. I tried to say something similar in the chat before I left but it obviously wasn't going anywhere. It probably didn't help that there were about 2 or 3 people, 5 at max, active in the room at the time. My 'rant' (and I'm not that proud of it now, believe me) was partially directed at one particular member -- the one who was in the chat at the time -- but it was meant to apply more generally. I personally felt and guessed that some other members felt afraid to help with problems or correct mistakes in chat because they weren't 'regulars' or moderators.

I'm honestly surprised that I was able to even speak (read: rant) for a full half hour without getting at least a kick from somebody. I tried my best to be as respectful as possible but it was really hard to do right then. Lostcoast left near the end of my rant having been quiet for a long time; I don't know how much he saw or cared enough about to intervene.

Speaking of: lostcoast is often said to be the 'only' moderator and he does seem very capable to me from what little interaction I've had with him, despite our differences. But what about the half-ops? There are several, about 5 or 6 at my last count, who have the power to ban or kick users. Again, many seemed very capable, respectful, and friendly to me and others. There were times, however, when some of these people and other members were, IMHO, acting downright rudely to guests and helpers.

The first few months of my relatively short stay in the chat, which started mid-July, were pretty okay I think. People got problems solved, incorrect advice was seldom given and called out on, etc. etc. In the last few months though, more incorrect advice and just bad information was being handed out. It was usually either not corrected, or whoever tried to correct it was shot down. That actually made computerhope look bad to me and rather unfriendly to guests and newer or less privileged members.

TL;DR? I think that all chat participants and helpers, including the mods, half-ops, ops, whatever they want to be called or whatever you call them, should keep in mind that they represent computerhope as a whole. Discouraging guests and other helpers is easier than you'd think, and for the sake of what Nathan has tried to build, please just remember that and try to make guests and volunteer helpers feel welcome and actually wanting to come back, instead of afraid of being yelled at for arbitrary reasons.

I'd say this exact same thing about the forums too, except that it doesn't seem to be a problem there. Whether it's the nature of IRC (likely) or which members frequent the chat (a bit less likely), it seems a much less friendly and encouraging environment than the forums and that's just sad.

That sums up my thoughts exactly.  I've thought many times about quitting but I really like the thought of doing a good thing by helping others while increasing my knowledge at the same time.

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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2013, 09:35:36 AM »
I contacted Nathan via Facebook (a few days ago with no reply) and sent an email via the form on here.  I suppose a PM can't hurt!

As you know, I did get your messages and have responded to them. I try to give myself only a few minutes on Facebook and usually only log on with my cell phone. Since I knew it was going to take more than a few words I'm willing to type on my phone, it took me a few days to log into Facebook on the Computer to respond.

Cameron should really understand that others who help , get really 'pissed off' by his continued interuptions , especially when they are giving advice that is a) relative to the request , and b) correct .

he should really understand that he is not the 'GOD of ALL  Knowledge '   Others who help have , in many cases, been far longer in the Business than he has , and also that they may also be evaluating the issue , to a) help the user understand the problem more  and the likely cause of it ,  and b) then provide the correct  'fix'   

A ban of more time may make him  think more about how he is viewed in Computerhope chat help 

It is common courtesy  to allow someone who has started to answer a question finish, unless he/she is out of ideas. However, that being said it is also a IRC chat and not a one-on-one chat so restricting others from talking honestly can't be done unless we started giving and taking away voices, which would probably be more of a mess.

If you are asked not to do Coding or html support in chat I don't see how that confuses you. I told you and the guests who ignored me that
the Forums are best for longer running issues for those categories.

I agree that coding/programming questions should not be done through the #computerhope channel. It gets way too messy and confusing when people are posting code into IRC or several URLs to Pastebin. You're welcome to take it into a private conversation, but it should remain out of #computerhope.

Cameron did mention that a programming question about centering a DIV could have been answered because it is one line of code. However, since it is a programming question it should still be addressed on the forums or in a private channel. I can't think of a way to say in the rules that only short code questions can be answered, so it's best that we just don't answer any in #computerhope.

I see no reason that a member should be banned over helping someone work out issues with code. The simple way of making sure that the conversation stays fluid is to simply announce who you're replying too.

As mentioned above, the only reason I prefer code question from being answered is because with several people taking at once and with code being posted into the main channel it causes confusion, usually results in flooding of the channel, and most guests in the channel are not familiar with IRC etiquette and rarely will address the other users name who they are talking with, which causes confusion with any other guest in the channel.

--

As always I try as hard as I can to assist anyone with problems on Computer Hope and request complaints about chat, the forum, or any other section of Computer Hope be sent to me VIA e-mail or PM.

I do have a long list of things that need to be done in chat, but welcome any other request for fixes that should be done on #computerhope. My to-do list is always adjusting as new tasks and problems arise, but I've moved the chat/hopebot tasks higher on the list to get hopefully some of the chat problems resolved sooner. Right now my top priority apart from my daily tasks is to resolve a lot of the forum requests.

Thanks as always for all your patience and continued help. ;D
Everybody is a genius. But, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.
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camerongray

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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2013, 12:42:12 PM »
Thank you very much for clearing everything up.  I look forward to helping in chat in the future.

patio

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Re: Problems with Chat
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2013, 07:16:00 PM »
Silly petty arguments and differences will always exist in a live chat /Forum atmosphere...it's the nature of the beast...
What cannot be controlled is how people act/react to those situations and unfortunately the results are sometimes negative , juvenile or flat out unwarranted...

In all my time volunteering here whether it's the Forums or Chat in the back of my mind was the main goal of what the purpose was and is...helping people with issues that they didn't understand or just had no answers to.
I've never been close to being always right...however the main goal and idea is stated above...

Anyone who sees that differently than for what it is has lost site of the true meaning of Help.

So take it for what it's worth.

patio.
   
 
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