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Author Topic: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?  (Read 45090 times)

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Geek-9pm


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 10:04:57 AM »
Somewhere I saw an article that said, in effect, that Windows XP is FREE when you get Windows 8.Now it that is true, then you can still get Windows XP whenever you buy Windows 8.   ;D


soybean



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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM »
My best advise with XP is to not upgrade the system to either W7 or W8.  The guts of the machine are just going to be lack-luster for newer technology.
This really depends on the hardware specs.  Many systems running XP will run W7 or W8 adequately for many users; of course, I'm not talking about online gamers.  But, for email, web browsing, word processing, etc., many older systems will run W7 and W8 adequately.  I have W7 on a Pentium 4, 4GB of RAM (3.5 recognized since it's a 32-bit machine), a 250GB SATA hard drive, and an old-ish Nvidia FX6200 (256MB) AGP8 video card.  I have Office 2007 installed.  I've been using WLM (Windows Live Mail) for POP email but I think I'm going to change email over to Outlook 2007.  I do some occasional photo editing and occasionally Skype, with or without video (webcam). 

Microsoft's system requirements for both W7 and W8 are quite modest.  Granted, I would not want to run either OS on a system with only the minimum system requirements but, even with the old Pentium 4, my system is significantly better than those system requirements. 
 
I do not recommend W8 to anyone who enjoys using a keyboard and mouse.  The only people W8 is going to appeal to are touch-screen, smart-phone and tablet users.
Well, at this point, most computer shoppers see no options.  For months now, W8 is the only OS on new Windows computers being sold in brick-and-mortar retail stores.  Most folks aren't attuned to searching for "new" computers running W7. 

And, regarding use of keyboard and mouse, W8 can easily be used in that manner.  I bought a laptop with W8 about 4 months ago.  Like most laptops, it did not come with a touch-capable screen. 

patio

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2013, 11:12:21 AM »
Somewhere I saw an article that said, in effect, that Windows XP is FREE when you get Windows 8.Now it that is true, then you can still get Windows XP whenever you buy Windows 8.   ;D

 No truth to this at all...
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2013, 01:00:58 PM »
No truth to this at all...
Then somebody should tell MS to stop letting people have it free.
If your Windows 8 is GWA, then you can download the  VM for XP at no charge.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2013, 01:59:29 PM »
Then somebody should tell MS to stop letting people have it free.
They don't.

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If your Windows 8 is GWA
GWA isn't any OS-related acronym I've ever heard.

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then you can download the  VM for XP at no charge.
No you cannot.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

patio

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2013, 05:11:59 PM »
I Officialy give up....
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

SuperTweaker

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2013, 09:41:26 PM »
It's not just that a Windows XP computer's devices might be able to surpass minimum requirements for Windows 7, it's the age factor of the machine as well.

If someone has a 10 year old PC that has been used for hours every day they will be replacing Power Supply Units, CPU's, CPU and Chassis fans, disk burners and the worst case scenario, the motherboard.

If it's 10 years old it would make a good backup computer to stuff away in a closet and have on hand should any new W7 computer need some maintenance.

I personally have recommended this to all of my customers.  They soon realize how good it feels to know there is a "backup computer" should anything go wrong with their primary computer.

We all have good ideas and perhaps my philosophy on having two computers is based on my drumming this advise over and over again through the years, "backup your files and system!"

Amazing how many people do not make a system image - it's just mind boggling.  ???

BC_Programmer


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2013, 02:38:15 AM »
it's the age factor of the machine as well.
Computers are not cars. Their performance does not degrade with time. The only things that degrade over time are mechanical components such as fans and disk motors, but generally these either work or don't work at all.

That said, your 2-PC concept has merit, since with an XP machine that met the requirements you would still need to buy Win7 anyway- may as well have that cost subsidized as part of a new computer.

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Amazing how many people do not make a system image - it's just mind boggling.  ???
I don't. I think it's a waste of time. I just back up important data. I don't want my backup storage to be filled with Windows and Application crap that I can reinstall. I'd much rather back up years of work than something that took a few hours.

Of course for your average user the main concern is just being able to use the system, and Imaging usually allows for the fastest way to "get back" to a working system.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

SuperTweaker

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2013, 06:22:32 AM »
I don't. I think it's a waste of time. I just back up important data.

To each his own.  Who on earth would want to take hours to reinstall every program and every Windows Update etc. if their system got infected or the HDD failed?  W7 has it's own System Backup app and there is an excellent free one called  EaseUS Todo at Cnet.com .  I happen to use a more complex program for partitioning and backing up my drives but the average user doesn't need all those features.

A typical time-frame for someone with an useable system or a failed HDD would be about 6 to 24 hours to install a fresh Windows OS and all their programs.  In some cases, important data cannot be saved when it comes to gamers. They may have hundreds or thousands of downloaded files that cannot be saved in the Programs directory.

Coping the system image back to the C :Drive from a secondary drive be it an External HDD or an Internal HDD takes only an hour (on avg) for a C :Drive that has about 40GB of used space. I don't think the average PC user uses more than 200GB of space unless they are music or video collectors. In either case, the system image contains not only all the Service Packs, Anti-Virus data updates and program updates, it also includes their collection of music and videos.

You're opinion that backing up a system is "a waste of time" is relevant to you, not to other people around the world.  In fact, your "waste of time" comment is contrary to most every IT professionals opinion from system administrators to the guy in a remote area who may still be using dialup because broadband is not available. That person would have to experience agony trying to get caught-up with all the Windows Updates and other downloads.

Waste of time, no.  Smart and fast solution to a catastrophic HDD or system infection, yes.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2013, 07:47:48 AM »
Who on earth would want to take hours to reinstall every program and every Windows Update etc. if their system got infected or the HDD failed? 
A person who would rather use that back-up space to continue to backup consistently changing information that represents years of work. Installing Operating systems and applications is a few hours of pointing and clicking. rewriting entire software applications, not so much.

That allows me to store more backups because they are smaller, and because they are smaller I can back them up more regularly, too. Which is beneficial since some of them change frequently. I can fit three such backups onto a DVD, whereas a System Image of my System drive would likely use up at least two dozen DVDs. Of course I could make an image of a reasonably clean OS Install, but then why bother? I Can just reinstall it myself when needed. I can redownload Windows ISOs and ISOs for Office and Visual Studio from MSDN (or find the discs I already burned); I can redownload Eclipse and IntelliJ IDEA; I can reconfigure that software as desired.

If I lose the source to my applications, I cannot redownload them (well, at this point that's not true because a lot of them are in Distributed Source Control such as github, but not all of it is). I know because I've lost three years of Development work before from a series of HD crashes (which included the backup). This is why I focus on preserving what I cannot replace without effort. Windows and Applications are few clicks and a wait. Source code and images, sounds, music, and resources I created I cannot simply redownload, so I back them up. This also has the advantage that I can use that "backup" (in my case it's just a .7z file that I save to an external and burn to a disc) to copy projects and data to my laptop or to other systems if needed.

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A typical time-frame for someone with an useable system or a failed HDD would be about 6 to 24 hours to install a fresh Windows OS and all their programs.  In some cases, important data cannot be saved when it comes to gamers. They may have hundreds or thousands of downloaded files that cannot be saved in the Programs directory.
I don't generally backup game saves, either. I much prefer to preserve m productive data, rather than data files from a game or two. The one exception is that I plonk a Minecraft World into the .7z file as well. (this is executed via a backup script at 3AM every second day using PowerArchiver). Everything else is just a reason to play the game again in the future, really.

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Coping the system image back to the C :Drive from a secondary drive be it an External HDD or an Internal HDD takes only an hour (on avg) for a C :Drive that has about 40GB of used space. I don't think the average PC user uses more than 200GB of space unless they are music or video collectors.
My System drive has 48GB free of 698GB. Which is another reason I prefer to go the route of simply backing up what I need, not what might save time, because (and I suppose I'm repeating myself) I'd rather save 3 years of actual work than save a few hours of watching a progressbar. Because in the latter case I can always do something else in the meantime.

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In either case, the system image contains not only all the Service Packs, Anti-Virus data updates and program updates, it also includes their collection of music and videos.
My Music and Video files are stored on my secondary drive. It's been relatively untouched for a long time so several backup folders have been made on a few externals that mirror it and allowed me to copy it to other computers as desired.

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You're opinion that backing up a system is "a waste of time" is relevant to you, not to other people around the world.
Yeah, I should have mentioned that. Oh wait, I did:
Of course for your average user the main concern is just being able to use the system, and Imaging usually allows for the fastest way to "get back" to a working system.

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In fact, your "waste of time" comment is contrary to most every IT professionals opinion from system administrators to the guy in a remote area who may still be using dialup because broadband is not available. That person would have to experience agony trying to get caught-up with all the Windows Updates and other downloads.
Congratulations, you managed to roll an Argument to authority,Special Pleading, and a Strawman into 2 sentences.

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Waste of time, no.  Smart and fast solution to a catastrophic HDD or system infection, yes.

It would take me around 95 DVDs to back up my system drive, assuming rather liberal compression rates. I would not call that smart or fast in my case.

I was of course exclusively talking about my own case. Which is made clear by the conveniently ignored last sentence.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

SuperTweaker

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2013, 08:56:16 AM »
You are a developer, not a computer maintenance expert. We are located in two different areas of the metaphorical onion which contains all the rings of different skill-sets in the world of IT.

That being said, no one would use DVD's to backup their system if they had a good understanding of "backing-up".  You would use an external HDD or a secondary internal HDD.

But I can see you are a person who wants to rule this forum and after this post, anything you feel necessary to disparage will be ignored.

Thanks for the warm welcome to this forum.  People like you need to keep their egos in-check. It's way too easy to feel "you're all that" in a forum.   ::)

peace

Allan

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2013, 09:10:23 AM »
Okay, well please allow me to extend a warm welcome to the forum :) .

Also, if I may, I'd like to make an observation. You are a brand new member and in your very first posts you chose to present yourself as highly knowledgeable and to state fairly strong opinions (in some instances, they were presented as "facts" as opposed to opinions, but okay). Well SuperTweaker, you are most welcome to do so. BUT - you then need to be prepared to face the consequences ;) . In this case, those consequences include both counter-opinions and corrections from a member with both a great deal of longevity and credibility (as well as respect) at Computer Hope.

I don't know what your primary intent was when you joined the forum. If it was to be of assistance to those in need of same, GREAT. If it was to present yourself as an expert, well - I think we all know how well that comes across - especially on a forum loaded with very knowledgeable folks. If it was to engage in technical philisophical discussions, that's fine too - just don't expect to be treated with kid gloves just because you're new here.

Bottom line, just stay within the rules and you're most welcome here - regardless of your reason for joining. We both welcome and encourage lively debate - just remember: keep all punches above the belt and if a referee (moderator) feels a need to intervene, please move to a neutral corner and lower your gloves.  ;D

SuperTweaker

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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2013, 10:49:17 AM »
I guess my ego is as huge as any other professional in in-home computer technology. I don't get easily offended but I think I "easily offend". Oops!

I come from several forums and recently sent this forum to some of my clients because the tips, suggestions and definitions of basic to advanced computer lingo and skills is easy for the average computer to find on this site.

Getting into the forum was based on one intent.  I don't like W8 and am part of a IT boycott group that comes down on M$ for releasing this new system that destroyed the continuity and familiarity of W8 to people over 40 years old. To me it's a crime, to others it's "something they must get use to" .  Whether our boycott or anyone else's boycotts makes a different in the coming W9 OS remains to be seen.

Younger people (some) embrace the new look of W8, probably because it's different from W95 to W7. Something other than what their elders have used.  Is W8 a cool OS?  Not IMHO.

So BW has banged away at the keyboard to point out all his contrary thinking and I have stated in my original posts (IMHO) several times.  Making a tough statement with IMHO should be clear to all that it's just an opinion.

Thanks for the warm welcome and I will stay away from directly communicating with BW.  We are two RAMS (no, not memory  ;D) butting heads on every turn.

I'll have fun here and I'll extend my knowledge to anyone with XP, Vista and 7 whenever I feel I can be helpful.

ciao  ;)

Geek-9pm


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2013, 12:55:47 PM »
Are we done now?
As for me, and many like me, 2014 will not force us to go Windows 8.
(And some people are still using Windows 98 for their needs.)

Unless Microsoft comes up with the Really Big Next Big Thing real soon, Microsoft and its partners are in for a downhill run. The proverbial well is running dry.  They can paine the pump until the well is bone dry.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Should I Convert Now or Wait until April 2014?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2013, 02:00:10 PM »
Just FWIW: I try to attack arguments and statements, and try to avoid attacking people. If I do that at any point- or if you feel I did, please accept my apologies. :). Otherwise I will attack arguments and statements very forcefully. But understand that this typically only occurs for statements and arguments that do not have any apparently merit or lack any evidence or backing information. If you provide backing information and stuff it's a lot harder to knock'em down.

You are a developer, not a computer maintenance expert.
Software development and computer maintenance are not mutually exclusive. I'm neither an expert Developer nor an expert in computer maintenance.

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That being said, no one would use DVD's to backup their system if they had a good understanding of "backing-up".  You would use an external HDD or a secondary internal HDD.
In my case, All my External HDDs are full. Of backups. I put them on both. Again, something I believe I mentioned in my previous post. DVDs are generally better for long term storage in a cost-effective manner. I cannot (nor could I previously) afford to buy a bunch of external drives and store those as backups, nor would that be wise.

Essentially in order to backup my System Drive I would either need the aforementioned number of Optical discs (and a lot of time) or a drive of about equal or greater size and a lot of time. However, In my case, if I had a external drive of about equal or greater size (or really any size) I would rather use it to store the backups of my actual data, rather than System files/Programs that I can reinstall. This doesn't apply to everybody of course particular for many typical users who in this day and age often are content with Browser-based applications like Google Docs or use other distributed services and thus have rather limited actual data to backup, and usually (as you've said) relatively small System Drives that are far more feasible to backup.

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But I can see you are a person who wants to rule this forum and after this post, anything you feel necessary to disparage will be ignored.
I'm not sure I get the intent here, but I really doubt that anything I say would strongly influence whether somebody ignores anything said by others. I'd be more inclined to consider that whatever I am responding to would be considered more readily. I would certainly hope what I said would not force people to close their eyes to the opposing view.

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Thanks for the warm welcome to this forum.  People like you need to keep their egos in-check. It's way too easy to feel "you're all that" in a forum.   ::)
I'm not sure where Ego comes into it. In terms of the other thread, You made allegations and claims without evidence. And no, you did not use "IMHO" in those cases. Perhaps you meant to, but I interpreted it as a purposeful omission in the situation. Even so, Opinions can in fact be wrong. If, for example, you have some good evidence that shows how Win8 is in fact a Bad OS, I am genuinely open to it. Otherwise, it's a matter of opinion and it's also a fact that the situations is analogous with previous windows releases that have changed the system considerably, including the original introduction of the start menu. Which should at least provoke some real thought on the matter.


I guess my ego is as huge as any other professional in in-home computer technology. I don't get easily offended but I think I "easily offend". Oops!
I wasn't offended. I just respond strongly to arguments that appear to be nothing more than emotional appeals. In the other thread you also didn't qualify what was your opinion with any statement as such, in fact it appeared to me that you did the opposite, which is why I responded so strongly. (Also I had just made a rather strong debate-style post in another forum on a completely unrelated topic so was still fired up in debate-mode).

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Getting into the forum was based on one intent.  I don't like W8 and am part of a IT boycott group that comes down on M$ for releasing this new system that destroyed the continuity and familiarity of W8 to people over 40 years old. To me it's a crime, to others it's "something they must get use to" .  Whether our boycott or anyone else's boycotts makes a different in the coming W9 OS remains to be seen.
Well, here's the thing. I'm completely open to the idea of Windows 8 being bad. Or even criminal.

However, Show me why. Tell me why this is the case. Otherwise, it's just an opinion; and while everybody is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make those opinions immune from criticism- anymore than my own. I am equally prepared to defend any criticism of my own opinions on various matters and have in fact been persuaded to change my stance by other members a few times. In fact I believe it was a discussion on this forum that initially got me thinking about cognitive bias's I might have had against Vista affecting my opinion and use of it when I first got it. Though maybe I'm confusing memories of an inner monologue with a forum thread.

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Younger people (some) embrace the new look of W8, probably because it's different from W95 to W7. Something other than what their elders have used.  Is W8 a cool OS?  Not IMHO.
I started with MS-DOS 3.2, and I think this particular passage may be implicitly direct at me. I also disliked Windows 3.1 when I first started using it, and I disliked Windows 9x when I first started using it. It wasn't until XP that I realized that it was part of my responsibility to at least try to understand the changes that were made between the variants of software. Before That, I dismissed the NT subsystem as garbage based entirely on it lacking DOS mode, for example, without realizing the wealth of features  you get from a fully protected mode operating system. It all boiled down to "they changed it, now it sucks". And I couldn't come up with any good reasons beyond emotion and "feelings" on the subject as to why I didn't like XP. So I shod my reluctance and dove in, and try ot apply the same logic to any OS I try.

The only one that still managed to have a negative opinion overall was Gentoo Linux but I think that it's supposed to have that effect.

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So BW has banged away at the keyboard to point out all his contrary thinking and I have stated in my original posts (IMHO) several times.  Making a tough statement with IMHO should be clear to all that it's just an opinion.
Actually, in this thread you didn't use IMHO a single time. In fact you declared what you saying to be objective fact. Kinda the issue I took in that case. In this thread, I responded to your particulars in response to my own posts in the context of my own scenario, which is of course what I was referring to, perhaps not clearly enough, I gather, when I said that "I think it's a waste of time" in reference to Disk imaging. I of course meant it would be a waste of my time for my particular requirements, since I have far more important things to save. I did not mean to imply that it was a waste of time in the general case of users; I do know that Allan recommends Disk imaging software, and many others do as well. In most scenarios I even recommend it for a user. What I was getting at was more a refutation because I got the impression that you felt that everybody could benefit from System Imaging, which I do not think to be the case :). Otherwise I agree that for your typical user, Imaging software is useful.

Also just to be clear on the Win8 stuff: If you can find some concrete information that shows how Win8 is truly a "bad OS", I would genuinely like to hear it!

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Thanks for the warm welcome and I will stay away from directly communicating with BW.  We are two RAMS (no, not memory  ;D) butting heads on every turn.
I enjoy debating and Windows 8 is as good a topic as any other. I've had some very interesting debates on the subject on other forums, but have overall found the position that "Windows 8 is bad" to not really have much particularly useful evidence outside "I don't like it" :( Surely there is more to it than that, especially if you want to declare go to the length of saying Windows 8 is criminal! That's partly why I work to start these debates. I'm trying to squeeze out the evidence :P

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.