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Author Topic: Banned because of being in a different channel  (Read 6162 times)

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camerongray

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Banned because of being in a different channel
« on: October 08, 2013, 05:50:56 PM »
I know this keeps coming up again and again, and seems like it goes on and on but I, and many others feel that something needs to be done.

It's clear to many people that there is a lot of negative views towards the way that the chat is run by many of the members (myself included).  It happens that there is also another channel on Mibbit, #GlitchPC, where a lot of people who are also helpers in CH hang out.  Because many of the members who complain against the way the channel runs also hang out in #GlitchPC, lostcoast sees this as some kind of 'hate club'.

I admit, in #GlitchPC the subject of the CH channel is often discussed and yes, quite a lot of it is negative.  Today one of the members of #GlitchPC joined #ComputerHope and asked why many of us have a problem with CH.  Of course lostcoast has now put in place a channel ban on #GlitchPC basically meaning that I am unable to help users in #ComputerHope without first leaving #GlitchPC.  To me this seems to be completely unfounded as all it does is prevent a lot of helpers in the #ComputerHope channel from actually helping. I will add that #GlitchPC is in no way a "hate club" and is just a group of us chatting about fairly random topics.  I know for sure that one of the top posters on the forum along with one of the mods are also regulars in #GlitchPC.

I have attached the log of when the channel ban was put in place below.

Quote
<Mulreay> Is there any reason that people keep complaining about this channel? It makes my job harder in my channel.
<lostcoast> yes the reason is complainers like you
--> patio ([email protected]) has joined #computerhope
<Mulreay> ahh
<Mulreay> That makes sense
<lostcoast> the ones that complain all reside in #GlitchPC
<Mulreay> Really? prove it
<lostcoast> 9 outta 10 complainers can't be wrong
<Call-A-Farmer> lostcoast: morning, howz things?
<lostcoast> wonderful
<lostcoast> thanks
<Mulreay> About 4 members of #GlitchPC sometimes jump in here.. your reasoning is flawed almost as much as your backward racist advice
<Call-A-Farmer> lostcoast: you talked to the other hops about me?
<lostcoast> Mulreay: bye
<lostcoast> scoot along now troll
--> guest_58 ([email protected]) has joined #computerhope
<Mulreay> Hey patio
<-- guest_12 ([email protected]) has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<lostcoast> Mulreay: did you need help exiting?
<Mulreay> do i use the red cross?
<RainbowBrown> you guys are funny
<lostcoast> use the trap door if need be
<Mulreay> Trap door.. OK google search
<-- Azander ([email protected]) has quit (Quit: I'm gone!)
<Mulreay> Nope.. can I use the red X in the corner of my screen? Your advise ironically seems lacking
<RainbowBrown> come on its black its white
<RainbowBrown> Heal the world.
<lostcoast> watch it he will call you racist now
<-- guest_58 ([email protected]) has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<RainbowBrown> lets have a hacker battle like in the movie hackers
- {Day changed to Wednesday, 9 October 2013}
<Mulreay> Racist? Why would I do that? I'm not you
<HD8> !rules
<Hopebot> Chat rules: English only, no profanity, no discrimination, no discussions on politics/religion, no spam or flooding the channel, no advertisement or other website URLs unless addressing another users question, and no assistance with hacking, cracking, creating viruses, illegal torrents, bypassing copyright laws.
<lostcoast> childish come back
<Mulreay> You call people 'chinks' and the such
<Call-A-Farmer> HD8: morning
<RainbowBrown> you can call me crash overide
<HD8> hi Call-A-Farmer
<Mulreay> Nice at the Hackers ref
<RainbowBrown> well i have a date
*** Mode #computerhope +o lostcoast by ChanServ
*** Mode #computerhope +b ~c:#GlitchPC by lostcoast
<lostcoast> bye now
<RainbowBrown> his name is still in the list
<lostcoast> take that to Nathan
<-- Mulreay ([email protected]) has left #computerhope
<lostcoast> walk of shame :)
<baconbuttie> lol
<lostcoast> I said one more troll from that channel and it was a channel ban...man of my word
<camerongray> We are not trolls!
<baconbuttie> fair enough
<camerongray> I mean, Calum hangs out there!
--> guest_58 ([email protected]) has joined #computerhope
<lostcoast> now they can all join forces to uproot lostcoast once again
<camerongray> No
<Call-A-Farmer> HD8: howz things
<baconbuttie> lol
<Call-A-Farmer> lostcoast: lol
<lostcoast> one for all and all for the one  :P
<camerongray> I have a lot of better things to be doing thanfight some imaginary 'war' between IRC channels!
--> guest_63 ([email protected]) has joined #computerhope
<camerongray> than fight*
<HD8> they pretty crazy right now Call-A-Farmer
<Call-A-Farmer> hehe I just went to that room as I did not know what it was next min i cant post in chat lol....that worked!
<-- guest_63 ([email protected]) has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<camerongray> Hmm, odd
<camerongray> You should be able to
<Call-A-Farmer> lostcoast: gman and camerongray  are still have a full out fight atm PMSL its entertaining!
<lostcoast> you know he was attacking all who come here, not just me
<camerongray> Call-A-Farmer: Nah, that's finished now :P
<camerongray> That was in #mibbit anyway
<camerongray> He's gone, no more abuse, fine by me
<lostcoast> I only worry about here, they can do whatever they like elsewhere
<Call-A-Farmer> hehe
<RainbowBrown> who is cameron gray
--> guest_66 ([email protected]) has joined #computerhope
<Call-A-Farmer> I dont think he is coming back, he has burnt his bridges with to many people....even zuwer that knows him personally hates him now! :o
<camerongray> Yeah
<guest_66> h'mmmm mibbit client widget is down or someat
<-- guest_58 ([email protected]) has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<Call-A-Farmer> RainbowBrown: an Original! that makes him old! :D
*** Mode #computerhope -b guest_25!*@* by BattleCam
--> db100548 ([email protected]) has joined #computerhope
*** Mode #computerhope -o lostcoast by ChanServ
<-- RainbowBrown ([email protected]) has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<Call-A-Farmer> morning cooper

I then politely asked lostcoast if I could discuss the ban with him and was met with this:
Quote
camerongray_   lostcoast: Chat?
00:17   lostcoast   no thanks
00:17   camerongray_   Just... wow
00:17   lostcoast   take it to the forums
00:17   camerongray_   I am as we speak
00:18      +++ ChanServ has taken halfop from HD8
00:18   lostcoast   sunshine is a great disinfectant
00:18   camerongray_   What is that meant to mean?
00:18   lostcoast   never mind if it makes no sense
00:20   camerongray_   I really just want to know what the problem is with me being in a different channel, I want to help here, I stay within the rules (as best I can) and I help people
00:20   Hopebot   Chat rules: English only, no profanity, no discrimination, no discussions on politics/religion, no spam or flooding the channel, no advertisement or other website URLs unless addressing another users question, and no assistance with hacking, cracking, creating viruses, illegal torrents, bypassing copyright laws.
00:22   lostcoast   common sense should tell you leave that channel to help here
00:22      *** Tim is now known as Timzzzz
00:22   camerongray_   And why should I leave a channel where I talk to many friends?
00:22   lostcoast   I'm not going there here
00:22      *** Apples quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
00:22   lostcoast   forums
00:22   camerongray_   As we speak
00:22   lostcoast   ok so lets drop it here

I love helping out in CH, as do many other #GlitchPC members, I just can't see how lostcoast sees it acceptable to treat people this way for them purely residing in another channel that lostcoast has a problem with.

I apologise if this is disjointed/difficult to read - lostcoast has got me really worked up (as he often does) and I am shaking so typing is difficult at best.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 06:17:20 PM by camerongray »

kyle_engineer



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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 08:42:20 PM »
While this does seem harsh, that dude (who is an OP and representative of glitchpc) came to ch for no other reason than to troll LC. Also, of the ppl in GlitchPC, most of them that I saw (aside from you) I've witnessed trolling the heck out of CH peeps before for no reason but to troll. So I understand where LC is coming from.

The truth is that at least a few of the HOPs/OPs/etc have been trolls more than once before, and as they rep that channel, they earned a channel ban. It makes sense. I do understand that it suck for you (and a few others) to be caught in the crossfire.

Even if people get banned from CH for reasons that GlitchPC people don't understand, I haven't seen 1 of the CH reps go there and troll like a childish brat. Sorry for the name calling (I know it's low of me), but that's exactly what Mulreay was doing.

Anyway, that my 2.

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BC_Programmer


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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 10:54:13 PM »
Quote
as do many other #GlitchPC members, I just can't see how lostcoast sees it acceptable to treat people this way for them purely residing in another channel that lostcoast has a problem with.
Again, I don't, And I don't know why you would want to continue to help in an environment that had been openly hostile towards you anyway. I've never seen Mulreay go to CH for any reason but to complain, and he certainly HAS gone there to troll. There is no other reason that he goes there so IMO LostCoast's response was quite justified. As an observer There is NO DOUBT in my mind from that first line that he would be there to cause trouble. In fact, he quite explicitly starts to troll, asking for a response by calling people racist.  No doubt if he reads this post (Mulreay) will be cross with me. Being a friend is not about ignoring character flaws but pointing them out. If you go into a IRC channel expecting to cause trouble and you get it, don't come crying about unfairness. If you ask me Mulreay was, from the start, asking for a Channel ban, and the fact that we got it is something we can pretty much lay on his trolling, even if he didn't make the ban himself it's still a case of "What did you expect?". Arguably it probably would have been better to just ban Mulreay from CH given that I cannot recall him actually visiting that channel without some agenda to Troll, but given we have become some sort of CH banee refugee camp I can understand why a channel-based ban would be in place.

Speaking of that "refugee" camp. So far we've had a bunch of "refugees" come in and complain about CH. Sometimes they have good cause to be upset. Usually they did something stupid. But without exception they remain FIXATED on the channel. Even after they become unbanned they continue to post excerpts and then challenge them in GPC... More than once I've seem PCDoc Post some excerpt from CH and then proceed to argue it in GPC. Grow some balls and make your arguments in CH or not at all.  Sometimes it doesn't even really affect the advice. Somebody will post a pastebin where somebody referred to a 775 socket as a 755 socket and somehow that's evidence that they don't know what they are  talking about even though the rest of the advice was perfectly sound. Yes, good work. You found out that the numbering structures used for a lot of hardware is stupid and makes no sense and is thus hard to keep track of, congratulations.

Honestly even if they provide good advice I can see why PCDoc and Immental were banned, because when you are helping many many people over time you don't have time for stupid arguments, and both of them from what I understand was willing to come up with one for the silliest reasons, or correct the most irrelevant mistakes. The fact that I would LOVE a good reason to ban them sometimes is enough for me to at least see why they were banned from CH, especially since CH is far busier and there is less time to deal with people repeatedly correcting others on trivial matters.

I'm more annoyed at theses "refugees" we get who apparently are still obsessed with CH after being banned. It's always "OMG LostCoast did this" or "db said this" etc etc. Amusing to a point, but I found it one-sided (this was why I visited some time ago, and had the awesome privilege of learning about the fictitious "Windows Workspace" from the exalted db) and then 'refugees' get surprised when they are banned, as if it came out of nowhere. ALL of #GlitchPC's channel logs are available online with a google search, so they shouldn't be surprised when they discover that people in CH have the ability to google search and find them, and they might not take kindly to the metaphors used to describe them. In fact I was a bit hurt when db didn't list me among those he didn't like.

Another annoyance is when we have people like PCDoc. Apparently he has decided that since I'm not friends with LostCoast and since he's not friends with LostCoast, we are somehow best friends. No, we aren't. Stop acting surprised when I  give you a second orifice for saying something stupid or expecting me to 'back you up" on something. I'm not your friend and even if I was I'm not about to suspend reality and claim falsehoods because you are. When it comes to providing information to others the only thing that being a friend might get you is a more diplomatic delivery.... But I digress.

You want me to tell you what I'm sick of? having these people banned from CH come to GlitchPC. PCDoc is a massive pain in the *censored* and I cannot stand him because he's annoying and talks out of his *censored* about how "unfair" the computerhope channel is, and goes on about "justice" and other crap that I don't care about it. Dude you were banned. Move on.

While this does seem harsh, that dude (who is an OP and representative of glitchpc) came to ch for no other reason than to troll LC. Also, of the ppl in GlitchPC, most of them that I saw (aside from you) I've witnessed trolling the heck out of CH peeps before for no reason but to troll. So I understand where LC is coming from.
That was likely, our "refugees" who have apparently decided that being banned is somehow this massive injustice that needs to be corrected conspiring amongst themselves. And Mulreay (A good friend of mine) who will as shown in Cam's log quite clearly join CH for the EXPLICIT purpose of trolling.

Quote
The truth is that at least a few of the HOPs/OPs/etc have been trolls more than once before, and as they rep that channel, they earned a channel ban. It makes sense. I do understand that it suck for you (and a few others) to be caught in the crossfire.
The only one I can think of was Mulreay, at least lately. I know neither I and much of the CH folks get on well and neither does Jacky with them but that is why I haven't really joined the channel much. The last time I did was interesting and at least gave me a good insight into the "other side" of the stupid nonsense our idiot refugees like PCDoc are constantly posting. Definitely lies somewhere in the middle. I also made an effort during my visit Where I did indeed argue with some helpers about certain things to also help people asking for help while I was active. While I was really only there to "observe" I don't like the idea of simply idling while people are asking for help So I helped a few people as well. Others take the rather disagreeable approach of remaining silent until they can catch out some minor error by another helper, then attempt to derail everything by turning the discussion from how to fix a certain guests issue to some pointless specifics that aren't necessarily relevant to the problem. I think it's fair to say that with both folks like Mulreay who get heated (even though he had no personal involvement in CH for a very long time) as well as the set of doofuses who use GlitchPC as some stupid refugee camp for their 'unjust banning' (GET OVER IT IT'S IRC!) the impression left cannot be a positive one. I've said some unfavourable things but I try to avoid such things being brought up in the CH channel itself when I do appear. One time back in teh day where I did appear apparently at a rather unlikely time since apparently some of the other folks were trying to give a brow-beating, it was believed quite reasonably I was brought on as "back-up". Which wasn't the case and was merely an unfortunate coincidence. It is things EXACTLY like the chat log cam has shown that are why I avoid visiting CH, but for the opposite reason one might expect. it is because of the outright misconduct and trolling of some people in our channel that has made it pretty much impossible for me to join without raising entirely reasonable questions about my presence. "incidents" are shared and instantly there are other nicks joining to "back up" the other member, it's ridiculous and  given that I can completely see why a channel ban was put into place.

Quote
Even if people get banned from CH for reasons that GlitchPC people don't understand, I haven't seen 1 of the CH reps go there and troll like a childish brat. Sorry for the name calling (I know it's low of me), but that's exactly what Mulreay was doing.
I agree completely. The only example I can find that is even close is from last year:
Code: [Select]
[16:09] * lostcoast ([email protected]) has joined #glitchpc
[16:09] <lostcoast> hi can I join the lusers club too?
[16:10] <lostcoast> u guys are pathetic but in a good way :P
I'm not counting when Guitar_man joined because he's been sorta disowned by #CH as well. I don't know how often "refugees" have returned to CH with a chip on their shoulder and done something similar to that above, but I know that the quoted part of the log was right after some similar trolling by Mulreay in the #ComputerHope channel.

I have no doubt that there is a pattern where the large majority of troublemakers are people who are also in the #GPC channel. This is probably because it's somehow become this stupid refugee channel for people that are banned from CH to build their rage and shift blame and then run back into CH when they are gracious enough to lift the ban as if they have been injusticed and start causing trouble. Now, to be fair, sometimes a "troublemaker" is making trouble but is entirely right; perhaps they corrected some detail, causing an ensuing argument.

But I don't think who is right about a detail is as important as whether the people getting helped actually receive help. Which arguee's aren't exactly focussing on anymore when they argue.

this post is probably going to be the exact opposite of what people like camerongray expected me to post when I said I was replying, but it's true. When I visited a few t imes I had some disagreements but I stuck around to help out some people when most other folks were unavailable. I did this to gain a bit of perspective because it's easy to just join a channel and start calling people racists*, but it's different when you actually go through some of the work they would do frequently by actually contributing. Camerongray does this also to be fair, since he helps (or rather ,helped, I suppose) frequently.

Fundamentally, GPC was originally started by ol' Steve (eg. GlitchPC). He faced some troubles and the registration on the channel was going out so we decided to have Jacky renew it. Long story short Steve was less than kind about that and we decided to distance ourselves from his website and efforts, and the fact that he banned every single one of us from his forum made that a bit easier.

Anyway after that it wasn't and isn't really a Computer Help Channel anymore As far as I'm concerned. It's just a Channel with a bunch of folks in it. The issue is that for some reason somebody has been inviting people that get banned on ComputerHope to chill there and all they can talk about is how bad CH is. Then they post topics here and go on about how they are being unfairly treated and ask people like me in the channel to post and I rip them apart and they act surprised, as if I was the one who said they should come to #GPC and start randomly badmouthing people in some other channel that they still insist on going to. (The thread PCDoc started was my favourite in this regard)


Speaking of that (the supposed racism), How many people can legitimately say that when they phone support and get a person with a thick Indian Accent they are completely open-minded and don't instantly sigh inwardly? Very few, I would imagine. I could probably look back through our own channel logs and find something far worse. (To be fair though I can understand people like PCDoc far better than I can understand a bloody thing that Guitar_man ever says... it's like decoding a cipher of word salad with him sometimes)


I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

camerongray

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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 05:54:49 AM »
I do agree with what BC is saying as to #GlitchPC being visited by a lot of people who have been banned from #ComputerHope in the past, this however does not make it a "hate club".  I also agree that Mulreay is wrong in what he did and only ever seems to troll in #ComputerHope - In this case I don't see a problem with banning Mulreay from #ComputerHope.

I along with the general population of #GlitchPC do not approve of 'trolling' in any way.

I admit I do sometimes 'vent' about #ComputerHope in the #GlitchPC channel, but surely this is better than it ending up in the main channel.  I also 'vent' (and others can confirm this) about loads of other stuff in the #GlitchPC channel, e.g. if I'm having an issue with a certain piece of software/company.  Some members do this more than others but I don't see how this actually affects the operation of the #ComputerHope channel.

What I don't see is why it is appropraite to ban everyone that is in #GlitchPC as this has locked out a lot of major helpers in the #ComputerHope channel.  I don't however see a problem with banning anyone who is causing a problem in the #ComputerHope channel, no matter what other channels they are also regulars in.

On the other hand, if this is just an attempt to make it awkward for people you don't seem to want in the channel (like me) then just say and I'll gladly leave.

I (along with many others) are not prepared to leave #GlitchPC in order to help in #ComputerHope so all that will happen is that I'll stop helping in #ComputerHope chat and just stick to the forums.  If this is your intention in all this, then please, just tell me.

I discussed this while issue with lostcoast ages ago, his main reasoning was based on an issue that happened years ago with #GlitchPC, the original owner and most of the people involved in this are long gone and the only real relation between the channel then and now is the name, it is no longer a computer help channel/website at all.

Quote
The truth is that at least a few of the HOPs/OPs/etc have been trolls more than once before, and as they rep that channel, they earned a channel ban.

The #GltichPC channel is very unofficial, I wouldn't say the operators represent the channel, they are just there to keep out trolls.etc (Which is almost never).  The only person that fits this statement of the ops being trolls is Mulreay, and as stated above, I have no problem with him being banned for his actions.  If you let me know the nicks of anyone in #GlitchPC that you feel is engaging in trolling in #ComputerHope, please just let me know, we would happily look into this.

I don't know why you would want to continue to help in an environment that had been openly hostile towards you anyway.

Sometimes I wonder that myself.  Completely giving up on the chat is my next step but I'd rather not do that as I feel that I am making a difference, even when I get nothing but abuse in response.

Calum

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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 06:23:44 AM »
My opinion is that the channel ban is inappropriate.  Banning the users causing problems surely makes more sense, regardless of who they are.  I would say this regardless of who the members of the "other channel" were, because what has been done just doesn't make sense.  Anyone causing trouble can still access the #computerhope channel simply by leaving or not joining #glitchpc.  As it stands, I too am effectively banned from #computerhope because I'm more active in #glitchpc, due to the atmosphere being more conducive to general discussion and banter.  I like to hang out in #computerhope and help when I can, but if I'm forced to pick between the two, I'll stick with the one that hasn't banned me for also being somewhere else.
As BC points out, this is just IRC we're talking about, and it's not the end of the world to me if the ban stays in place.  I just wanted to say that I feel the ban is somewhat silly and doesn't achieve anything useful as far as I can see.

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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 07:21:52 AM »
What I don't see is why it is appropraite to ban everyone that is in #GlitchPC as this has locked out a lot of major helpers in the #ComputerHope channel.
Oh come on now- I count only you and Calum really.

Quote
I don't however see a problem with banning anyone who is causing a problem in the #ComputerHope channel, no matter what other channels they are also regulars in.
That raises another point: guitar_man was still on the HOP list of CH when he had that fit in #GPC, so by the same measure, we could say that he was a representative of #CH. I think it's better to discard the idea of representation because that representation is not really clear anyway. We can only really represent ourselves, and not the group.

Quote
The only person that fits this statement of the ops being trolls is Mulreay, and as stated above, I have no problem with him being banned for his actions.
From CH of course, which shouldn't affect him since he doesn't go there often anyway.

Quote
If you let me know the nicks of anyone in #GlitchPC that you feel is engaging in trolling in #ComputerHope, please just let me know, we would happily look into this.
Uh... if somebody is trolling it shouldn't matter where else they are, they can just be kicked and banned.

I'll stick with the one that hasn't banned me for also being somewhere else.

Yet...  ;D
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 11:21:58 AM »
Thought this log would be interesting.

Quote
<lostcoast> Its nice we have a fan club in a diff channel so they can all talk behind our backs like the cowards they are :P
<lostcoast> read that log ya knuckleheds
<db100547> lostcoast: i guess you are referring to #glitchpc  :P
<lostcoast> lets not give free advertising please

I know it's fairly pointless posting this but at this point I have just completely given up on #ComputerHope chat.

It has been a good 4 years (For the most part) but the way that the channel has gone is completely downhill in my opinion and has strayed from everyone helping eachother with computer issues to stupid battling and people trying to show their 'power' as an operator.  Nowadays it seems rare for a problem to actually get resolved - Most people either leave after getting no help, sit getting help but not actually getting anywhere, getting abuse from the operators, getting banned or simply being told to use the forum.  I remember a couple of years ago we would all work together on one person's problem together and get it solved, noone ever argued or fought and if someone did get banned, it was for persistent evasion of the clear rules (And this was very rare).

There are lots of really good helpers on the chat too, but this seems to be overshadowed with some of the operators constantly trying to use their power for no real reason.

I will still help out on the forums (possibly even more than before) as the helps here usually work well; you never really hear the moderators but they do a good job.  If the chat issues get resolved (which I really hope so) I will happily join again.  I would also happily share ideas for how the chat issues could be resolved if this would make any difference.

When the channel worked there was a good number of operators and all were visible - They kicked/banned people when it was needed and never really said anything about it.  There was no real hierarchy in the channel.  Nowadays there is one operator (lostcoast) who is seen as a 'king' who noone ever says no to, then there are loads of half operators, many of whom kick and ban for trivial things and act like it's one big game.  If someone who is not an op/hop (like me) comes along and corrects an op or disagrees with anything being done, they are given no respect and often kicked/banned (Even if they are correcting bad/dangerous advice).

Apart from the changes in the operation structure over the years, nothing else really seems to have changed with respect to what help guests need or common problems, as such I can't see a reason why the issues can't be fixed by reorganising/reassessing the current (half)operators.

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Re: Banned because of being in a different channel
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 07:32:28 PM »
I like how Immental keeps posting logs from PM conversations. I guess if you disagree with how a channel is run that gives you free reign to stop respecting basic ideas of privacy? I mean public channel logs are one thing, but PM logs are another.

Not to mention these stupid forum threads are overall just that. Nathan either doesn't see this as a problem or doesn't care- the former is far more likely. I mean if he didn't do anything for the 500 threads before this that were rife with melodrama I don't know why suddenly that 501st thread will make him do something. If he considered it a problem, he would have done something long ago; since he clearly doesn't, you are wasting your time.

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.