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Author Topic: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop  (Read 33553 times)

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Geek-9pm

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Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« on: June 09, 2014, 10:34:38 AM »
Right. Do even  try it. Until  you first ask  around. It has been widely reported new laptops with Windows 8 with not let you install any other OS. Really.
Earlier I posted a Linux compatibility list. You might want to Google for an update to the list before you even think about installing Linus on your new laptop.

What is the problem? The new laptops have secure boot features that prevent the install of another OS. This will cut down on laptop theft. In fact, a laptop robber  can not even install an older version of Windows.  Once the disc has been wiped clean, no OS can be installed.

Don't believe me. Don't. I am not the one saying it. Check it out. Go to your favorite Linux forum and ask:
Can I do a dual boot with Linux and Windows 8.1 on anew Dell laptop?
You may be surprised by the answers n you get.
Or just do a Google on it:
'Can I do reinstall Windows 8 on my laptop?''

It has been documented!  :o

EDIT: This link on Life Hacker is out of date.
http://lifehacker.com/can-i-reinstall-windows-on-my-computer-without-the-bloa-1512345361

strollin



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Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 11:22:18 AM »
You should be able to install other OSes if you disable secure boot in the BIOS.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 11:36:39 AM »
You should be able to install other OSes if you disable secure boot in the BIOS.
The above statement has been given often. Sometimes sit is not applicable. Users report they can not turn off  on some machines, Son this is an issue one has to research first.

Logically, if a feature is to prevent theft or malicious use,  it would not be easy to defeat. Example, imagine a Chastity belt with an emergency release.


camerongray



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Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2014, 11:41:43 AM »
Stop with this already!  You are completely misguided!  All you are doing is posting these scare story threads, being completely proven wrong and then creating a new one.  Go and cite actual evidence that backs up what you are saying!

  • Your Linux compatibility list was ancient and barely included any modern hardware
  • You have no idea what secureboot is.  It is not theft prevention and is not for stopping thieves installing a new OS after it has been wiped.  Secureboot is part of the UEFI standard that is built to prevent malicious code executing before the proper OS.  It takes two seconds to disable this!  There is absolutely nothing stopping you installing a new OS on the machine if it has been wiped!
Please, stop creating these threads - Clear your mind and actually read what Secureboot actually does.  What is the most modern piece of hardware you have actually used?  Have you ever tried reinstalling the OS (be it Windows or Linux) on a machine that shipped with Secureboot?

If what you are saying is true, I guess I must have some sort of magical powers - Look! A brand new laptop that shipped with Windows 8 running Linux!

This is my laptop - It is a Lenovo ThinkPad T440s made in November 2013 and shipped with Windows 8.  It has a UEFI and came with Secureboot enabled by default.  The first thing I did when I got it was put in an empty SSD and install Fedora 20 Linux (which from the photo you can see it is running) - All this required was disabling secureboot.  I have also clean installed Windows 8.1 on this system on a couple of occasions with no problems whatsoever.  Explain that then!

Logically, if a feature is to prevent theft or malicious use
It is not theft prevention!

Geek-9pm

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Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2014, 12:22:24 PM »
To quote myself:
Quote
Right. Do even  try it. Until  you first ask  around. It has been widely reported
The idea is to get people t o read first. No I did not say it will always fail. I want all users to pay attention. It is not the way it used to be. It has been widely posted elsewhere. You have to follow the new in instructions. Unless you like to gamble.
Here is a quote.
Quote
...
The following is a small guide to install Ubuntu with a Pre-Installed Windows 8 system. The steps HAVE TO BE done in the precise order I mention them here to get everything started. If a step is skipped or done before another, you will most likely end up with some of the problems mentioned at the bottom of this guide.
.......
http://askubuntu.com/questions/221835/installing-ubuntu-on-a-pre-installed-windows-8-64-bit-system-uefi-supported
That kind of warning is out there. It is there for a reason. Only specific versions of Ubuntu can be used. There are exceptions, which are exceptions.

EDIT: Only of many forums about Laptop and Linux issues.
http://community.linuxmint.com/idea/view/1796
But it is two years old. So you have to look for stuff more up to date.
So here is one that is recent:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7684775
But you have to read ti carefully.
Quote
Most lenovo ThinkPads are certified to work with Ubuntu.
Noticed he said most. Most is not all. It is just most.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2014, 12:52:34 PM »
To quote myself:The idea is to get people t o read first. No I did not say it will always fail.
This is disingenuous backpedaling at best.

The existence of UEFI and Secure Boot on a laptop Does not, under Any circumstances (Save some special cases) prevent the user from installing ANY desired operating system they want on the laptop. The special cases are RT devices (which do not allow Secure Boot to be turned off, though for those devices doing so would be the equivalent of Jailbreaking or Rooting in terms of iOS or Android which are the competing Operating Systems in that domain), and Windows 8 itself being reinstalled on a wiped system (as we've seen in another thread). In which case one needs to setup UEFI properly and include the factory information which includes the product key- which for Preinstallation Kits would be an OEM key that will not work for Retail discs- Retail Discs being the most common and the one most people will borrow/use to try to "clean install" Windows 8 on their new Windows 8 Laptop, expecting it to work- but it doesn't since WIndows versions since XP have had distinctly licensed OEM and retail versions (None of the retail keys I can get via MSDN, for example, work on my OEM disc, and the key for my OEM disc does not work with the XP Installation media from MSDN).


Quote
It is not the way it used to be. It has been widely posted elsewhere. You have to follow the new in instructions. Unless you like to gamble.
The "new" instructions are exactly as strollin stated. The only extra step is disabling Secure Boot.

-UEFI does not pose a problem. All major Linux distributions now support UEFI with new releases of software such as GRUB and even LILO which support UEFI. Secure Boot is the only concern because it requires signed boot binaries which (as far as I'm aware) are not available from Linux since it is decentralized somewhat; even so, the UEFI boot system works fine with unsigned Boot executables on the UEFI partition if Secure Boot is disabled- this the requirement to do so.



Quote
Here is a quote.That kind of warning is out there. It is there for a reason. Only specific versions of Ubuntu can be used. There are exceptions, which are exceptions.
Quote
Most lenovo ThinkPads are certified to work with Ubuntu.
"Certified" has a completely different meaning. It does not mean that an uncertified system cannot run Linux. Not even close. It just means that running Linux on such a system means that Lenovo will not provide support. There is quite a difference.

Excepting systems that are tablet/RT systems, every single Windows 8 Thinkpad can run Linux and there are NO exceptions to this rule.

Do I have every single Thinkpad to prove and test that? No. I also don't have every single copy of MS-DOS 6 to prove that absolutely no copy of MS-DOS 6 has a "scarymonkey.bmp" bitmap on the third disk in the set. But the fact is that unless these systems are widely divergent from the other systems where it does work- and by "widely divergent" I mean in complete violation of the UEFI specification, you can install Linux on it if you so desire.

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

camerongray



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Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2014, 04:02:44 PM »
Installing Linux on a modern PC is exactly the same as it used to be with the exception of disabling secureboot (That one single option in the BIOS).  There is no other reason you cannot install a modern Linux distro on a new PC - If anything it is easier as Linux is getting much better at hardware support.  Absolute worst case you need to install a really old distro that freaks at the UEFI, then just switch it back to legacy mode (again, a simple BIOS option).

A PC being "certified" for an OS means nothing other than the manufacturer says it will definitely work - My laptop isn't listed on that list (Albeit the very similar T440 and T440p are) yet it works fine - And that isn't even with Ubuntu, I use Fedora as my preferred distro.  And as far as Dell goes, several of my friends have new Dell laptops that came with Windows 8 and now run all different versions of Linux (Ubuntu, Mintand Arch last time I checked).  Of course machines can have issues running Linux but this is no different to how it used to be where certain components may not have driver support - There is nothing done to them to explicitly block Linux.  Do you really think that these companies would deliberately block people running Linux on their systems?  If Lenovo did it, I wouldn't buy a Lenovo machine - They would not do this as all they do is chase away customers.

For the second time - Have you ever tried installing Linux on a system with secureboot? I'm pretty sure the answer to this is no and therefore you are basing this entirely on what you have misread online.  It's interesting how these threads always pop up after someone creates a thread when they are having issues installing Windows/Linux on a new PC.

I find it amazing that you are creating all these threads freaking about Secureboot yet you don't even know what it is - I have never heard of it being mistaken as an anti-theft system, that's amazing!

Please, stop posting these scare story threads about something that you simply do not understand - It only serves to confuse users.

evildoc



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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #7 on: June 10, 2014, 09:15:33 AM »
    I have been lurking on this forum for the past year or so and I finally registered after seeing this thread. I have been playing with linux for the past 6 months or so because I had a very little used eight year old laptop with Win XP. I experimented with linux lite, pinguy, puppy, ubunti, lubuntu, xubuntu and mint. Finally settled on linux mint for this laptop. Works great, I should have gotten into linux earlier.

    Last December, I bought a refurbished Samsung laptop with Win 8 on it (quad core 4 GB Ram 500GB HD). I tried out Win 8, did the Classic Shell thing with it but downgraded to Win 7 on it after about two weeks. Win 8 was just not for me.  One day I got to thinking about how mint would do. I installed mint and it ran even faster. I had to disable secure boot, but after that installation was a breeze.

    I liked mint so much that I also installed it on a Win 7 Asus netbook that I have. Running mint 17 now

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 09:41:08 AM »
    evildoc, thank  you for joining CH and adding your input. Glad to hear the Linux works for you on both your old and new computers. Your comments add to the value of this thread.
    BTW: Please share with us the model # of your refurbished Samsung laptop.

    camerongray



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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 10:56:10 AM »
    Your comments add to the value of this thread.
    The thread had no value anyway.  Why would sharing a model number help in any way, if you are trying to build a list of new laptops that will run Linux then here you go:
    • Lenovo ThinkPad T440s
    • evildoc's Samsung
    • Pretty much every laptop on the market today!

    On the plus side, at least this time you didn't simply abandon the thread after others pointed out that you were talking nonsense but these threads have to stop!  All they do is confuse and scare people as well as making you look bad.

    You still haven't answered my question - What experience do you have with modern laptops with respect to Secureboot or running Linux on them?

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #10 on: June 10, 2014, 01:05:00 PM »
    Quote
    You still haven't answered my question - What experience do you have with modern laptops with respect to Secureboot or running Linux on them?
    The question is not relevant.

    camerongray



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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #11 on: June 10, 2014, 03:06:37 PM »
    The question is not relevant.

    So the answer is "none" then?  I'd say it is relevant - If you are trying to advise people on something like this you must have some sort of knowledge and experience about the topic.  If I was advising people on how to repair intricate areas of Windows, it would be expected that I actually understood what I was helping with, something you clearly don't.


    What you have done in this thread (like all the others) is read some articles and forum threads online, completely misinterpreted them, tried and fill in any blanks yourself then ended up posting complete nonsense that serves nothing but making you look bad and to confuse people.


    Here are a few pointers to correct what was said above which I hope will both clarify the matter for both Geek-9pm and anyone else who stumbles upon this thread:

    • Secureboot is designed to prevent unauthorized OSs running on a system to protect them against certain types of infections.
    • Secureboot is not anti-theft protection
    • Secureboot is not a plot from Microsoft to stop people running Linux
    • It is possible to install any OS on a modern machine as long as the hardware support is the same (Suitable CPU, enough RAM, video card drivers.etc).  In other words, having Secureboot makes no difference to how it was before when trying to install a different OS.
    • It takes a matter of seconds to disable Secureboot if you do find the OS you want to run doesn't yet support it.
    • If you wipe a machine or fit a new drive, there is nothing stopping you installing an OS on this.
    I hope this clears it up for anyone who happens to read this.


    Geek-9pm - PLEASE, read up on what Secureboot actually does rather than guessing.  You have clearly seen a couple of mentions of it and incorrectly filled in the blanks yourself.  And in the future it would be great if you only advised on things that you are actually sure of or have experience in - Posting incorrect or irrelevant 'advice' does nothing other than confuse members, we are all here for the same reason (to help people) therefore only post where it actually helps rather than posting something incorrect or confusing causing others to have to come along and correct it.

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #12 on: June 10, 2014, 04:50:46 PM »
    Six out of seven things you list are false. You are the one needing to take remedial reading. I have no intention of making this into a contest.
    May the readers do the research themselves. Which was the point wanted to make.
    Do not put you trust in camerongray nor ion me. Do the research yourself.

    In dependent research shows a large number of new Laptops will not boot Linux  without major modification. That is by design. That is NOT speculation or conjecture. It has been documented elsewhere. These Laptops have Anti-Theft technology,  which blocks any OS not registered from that machine. I have no way of knowing how many CH readers have one of these. The user has to consul with the system administrator if the laptop is part of a enterprise.

    And no, I do not work for any of the companies that sell it. Nor did they ask me to post here to draw attention to the product. And it is no secret lto people who read.
    Thais is enough!
     

    camerongray



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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 04:58:27 PM »
    Please tell me which of the things I posted were false, and why? (Also, I can only count 6 things in my list)

    You are the one who clearly doesn't understand what Secureboot is when you thought it was anti-theft!

    Quote
    In dependent research shows a large number of new Laptops will not boot Linux  without major modification.
    Again, provide proof for this!

    Sometimes I honestly wonder if you are trolling or you simply make stuff up then start believing your own nonsense.  Can you not see how pretty much every thread you post now results in people getting either confused or annoyed, I mean, look at responses to your "news" posts.

    Even the sources that you "cite" go against your argument - Both of the ones you linked in your 3rd post have loads of replies stating which modern laptops people have had good experiences installing Linux on, there is nothing there that backs up your claim that you can't run Linux on a modern system!

    And there you go again, in yet another thread you are saying that Secureboot is anti-theft, it is not!  Find me any evidence that states that that is the purpose, or even one of the purposes of Secureboot.
    « Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:38:52 PM by camerongray »

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
    « Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 11:38:13 PM »
    Geek-9pm keeps using the word "research". Google search results are a complement to systemic research- they are not the single means to an end. If we took that approach than we could "research" how the Earth is flat or how there was no moon landing or any number of things. Search results are not systemic. systemic research of the sort needed to invalidate the claims being made would require innumerable references to people who wrote about the topic who are relatively well versed in it. Search results to forum posts of other people having similar issues is not "research" because there is no attempt to reach a conclusion, instead you are buttressing an invalid point with equally invalid references to forum posts with a complete disregard for any facts of the matter.

    Quote
    In dependent research shows a large number of new Laptops will not boot Linux  without major modification.
    Ignoring, again, your lack of any systemics in your 'research' (plugging in a search query is not research, research would be understanding the underlying technologies). For example the difference between searching for "Can hard drives be used as sawblades" may very well give you results where individuals are discussing it and some person declares it is possible. That is not a reliable source.

    Compare this to the alternative of instead researching hard drives themselves and, once equipped with that information, coming to a conclusion about the feasibility of the platters being used as sawblades. The difference is pretty big; one is taking a random stranger with no citable verification, evidence, or even qualifications at their word on a piece of information. The other is instead working backwards from technical specifics to evaluate the feasibility of the posed scenario. The difference is night and day.

    In this specific case, "independent research" is looking into the specifics of UEFI, Secure boot, and how they function. Verification with a system using these technologies helps. It is not using Google and finding forum posts like the one we have here were somebody is having trouble installing Windows. Because asserting that the cause must be specific to Windows 8 or boot-time changes is just that- an assertion.

    The reason we often find ourselves at odds on this is because you do not seem to take a proper systemic approach for "research". The internet is not a reliable source of information and you need to gather your information from multiple sources- and independent verification is exceedingly helpful as well. For example " large number of new Laptops will not boot Linux  without major modification." is an assertion. You provide no information- you don't even provide a link so we can point out that somebody named XxXLinux_Fo_LyfeXxX on a teenage hacking forum is probably not the best source for this sort of information. It is on purpose. You have no provided a single specific model number of laptop system that requires "major modification" because there are no examples of that phenomena.

    Quote
    That is by design. That is NOT speculation or conjecture.
    What a convincing argument. "I'm not speculating at all, my independent systemic research process just looks very similar to unverified post-hoc conclusions created from a jumble of vague google searches.

    Quote
    It has been documented elsewhere. These Laptops have Anti-Theft technology,  which blocks any OS not registered from that machine.
    Anybody with even the slightest understanding of UEFI, Secure boot, and how they work can see right through this vague information and see that you have nothing. "There is information online" and "it has been documented elsewhere" and "this is not speculation" are weasel words. (Except the last one, that's just funny). It's 'documented' elsewhere. By whom? Can we independently verify their results? have others independently verified their results? do their assertions and claims make sense to people who have an understanding of UEFI and Secure boot and how they work?

    For example:

    Quote
    These Laptops have Anti-Theft technology,  which blocks any OS not registered from that machine.
    First- what laptops? any specific model numbers? Again, you are being vague on purpose.
    Second: What Anti-Theft technology? the only thing that fits the "blocks any OS not registered from that machine" would probably be secure boot, but that is only possible with such an atrophied and false understanding what secure boot is I wouldn't even be willing to consider that to be what you refer to. Secure Boot is a UEFI extension that requires the boot executables stored on the UEFI partition to be code-signed. general-purpose PCs will allow the addition and changing of authentication certificates within the BIOS setup, and also allow the feature to be disabled if desired. Only certain types of mobile devices are designed in such a way that Secure Boot cannot be shut off- but those systems exist in the same ecosystem as iOS and Android, where these limitations are pretty much a given. A "source" for this information would be any number of documents released by UEFI.org, such as this one which covers the use of Secure Boot to prevent rootkits and malware infections or other unauthorized changes to the boot executable on the UEFI partition, as well as the UEFI specifications Themselves.

    If your "independent research" finds forum posts or information that imply systems work in a way that is not consistent with the operation specified in those documents, Then those systems are either not following the specification properly (Unlikely) or, the claim is wrong.


    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    glsmaxx



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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 10:59:02 AM »
      I just registered today and was scanning through some things that interest me.

      I have been running Linux on 3 of my 4 computers for a year or more now. I have one [main pc] that I still dual boot 7 and Linux Manjaro XFCE on. I have 2 HDDs in it and run a USB HDD for backup on this machine. I still run Win7 for a few things like cell phone stuff, some offline programs that can only be run in Windows at this time.. The other machine I still have Windows on is a Win8 laptop. It came with UEFI and secure boot. I dual boot it. It is as easy to dual boot as the other dual boot system. One just has to read some documentation and I mean documentation from sources who know what they are talking about. Like Dual Booting it sounds much worse than it is!

      IF YOU HAVE A MACHINE WITH UEFI AND/OR SECURE BOOT..... ALL YOU HAVE TO DO TO INSTALL LINUX IS DISABLE THEM. Simple as that. I could list 2 pages of links telling the same thing. Anyone who says different is just a tech newbie and needs to learn some things before he even messes with installing any OS. Windows included. Linux isn't for everyone. Linux is no harder to run than any other OS. There is just a great fear of it from people who haven't a clue. Just like anything else in life the unknown scares ya.

      Linux Mint17, Zorin, and numerous other distros look more like Windows than Linux and make transitioning over a piece of cake. Trust me. I have run Ubuntu and most derivatives, Debian distros [which Ubuntu is from, RedHat distros, Open SUSE, you name it....I have been there and done that. I run Manjaro which is an ARCH based distro now and will probably be running it until something better comes out. I do not recommend it to a newbie especially someone who would think secure boot or UEFI is a Linux block...HAHA There are more complicated forms of Linux than Manjaro. I just like it for me and that's what Linux is all about..

      IF someone needs more info about this topic feel free to PM me. I will be more than happy to help dispell the myths.

      Have a nice Day!

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 01:43:01 PM »
      Secure Boot works Out of the Box with Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS and 12.10 and Later, and most downstream distributions. (I would expect).

      Manjaro's Wiki claims Secure Boot must be disabled. As an ArchLinux downstream you should be able to (assuming the install media isn't already configured properly) use Archboot to install with Secure Boot enabled via PrebootLoader.

      As near as I can tell the only Distributions to support Secure Boot as part of their OOBE are Ubuntu (Above versions) Fedora 18+, and OpenSUSE 12.3. (And Arch Derived systems, if their media is built properly with archboot). I'm sure there are others. Not all versions will be capable and versions which do not support Secure Boot won't disable it (since that sort of defeats it's purpose), unless that is a feature of the system hardware, of course.


      And how can you call yourself a serious Linux user and not have experienced the thrill of Gentoo Linux?  :P


      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      Geek-9pm

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 01:45:49 PM »
      Whenever  secure boot is easy to disable, it is not secure boot. That is self-evident and does not require  research or documentation. Look up the word secure and find it is never associates with something easy to defeat.

      Telling people secure  boot  is quick and easy to disable is a  misnomer at best. Also,  telling the world how to  disable  a security feature is contrary to the basic rules of this forum. Furthermore, the Linux forums I read do not tell you to do that. Instead, the recommend getting a Linux Distro that works with secure boot.  That position was mentioned by Linus.

      After I posted this topic earlier, I found places that recommend using a version pf Linux that complies with secure boot specs. Doing that, one can still have the benefits of secure boot on a laptop.
      Which distros support UEFI and SecureBoot?

      So yes, I was wrong. Now you can put Linux on a new laptop.



      camerongray



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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #18 on: August 18, 2014, 06:59:15 AM »
      glsmaxx - First of all, welcome!  You are totally correct, all you need to do is disable Secure Boot and as BC says, many modern distros support Secure Boot out of the box.  Geek-9pm has clearly never actually used a laptop with Secure Boot and has created this thread off of bits of information he has misunderstood.

      Whenever  secure boot is easy to disable, it is not secure boot. That is self-evident and does not require  research or documentation. Look up the word secure and find it is never associates with something easy to defeat.
      Why are you still trying to comment on Secure Boot - You clearly have no idea what it is, how to disable it or what it means by secure.  How about this, go and buy a laptop that isn't a million years old then you will see how easy secure boot is to disable?  Unless you do this you are purely guessing entirely off of the name "Secure Boot" and then giving completely incorrect and confusing advice to members here.

      If you do not understand something fully, do not comment on it.

      Geek-9pm

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #19 on: August 18, 2014, 09:54:46 AM »
      Quote
      If you do not understand something fully, do not comment on it.
      That can apply to anyone. Apparently you do not know which are easy and which are not. And provided a list of such would only promote laptop theft of vulnerable models.

      It is not speculation or guess work  that laptop makers want to help reduce laptop theft.  Do you understand the issue? Eventually it will be very, very hard for a theft  to "wipe" a laptop using either a root kit or some other boot gable thing to remove the password. Linux was blocked out because it could be used that way.
      But some Linux distros and now able to deal with the issue.

      Please notice, I have admitted I was wrong. Linux is now available for  the advanced firmware in new laptops.

      An NO. Secure boot is never easy to disable.  It is wrong to say that it is.




      .


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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #20 on: August 18, 2014, 11:10:48 AM »
      This is getting ridiculous now...
      And provided a list of such would only promote laptop theft of vulnerable models.
      Please answer the following questions:
      • What do you think Secure Boot is? - Hint: It is NOT anti theft or to prevent malicious users from erasing stolen laptops!
      • Do you own a computer that has Secure Boot?
      • Have you ever used a computer that has Secure Boot?
      An NO. Secure boot is never easy to disable.  It is wrong to say that it is.
      Wow... Just, wow...

      You are just making this up as you go along.  Here are the steps to disable secure boot on an average laptop since you clearly have no idea:
      • Turn on computer
      • Enter BIOS/UEFI setup utility (as you would do on any pc made in the last 20+ years)
      • Go to the security tab
      • Go down to "Secure Boot"
      • Press Enter
      • Select "Disabled"
      • Press Enter
      • Save Settings and Exit

      Please notice, I have admitted I was wrong. Linux is now available for  the advanced firmware in new laptops.
      I did notice that, however you are STILL going on incorrectly about Secure Boot being difficult to disable (it isn't) and being anti theft (which it also isn't)
      « Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:49:03 AM by camerongray »

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 11:15:04 AM »
      That can apply to anyone. Apparently you do not know which are easy and which are not. And provided a list of such would only promote laptop theft of vulnerable models.
      Secure Boot has nothing to do with Anti-theft. It doesn't enter the equation. Secure boot is about making sure the boot loader software stored on the EFI partition for launching the OS is safe via signing. At no point during the boot process does it protect a system from being stolen.

      Quote
      It is not speculation or guess work  that laptop makers want to help reduce laptop theft.  Do you understand the issue? Eventually it will be very, very hard for a theft  to "wipe" a laptop using either a root kit or some other boot gable thing to remove the password. Linux was blocked out because it could be used that way.
      Linux was never "blocked out". And Secure boot does nothing to prevent an OS from being reinstalled. Even if only one OS Loader is signed in the BIOS, you can still just reinstall that OS.


      Quote
      An NO. Secure boot is never easy to disable.  It is wrong to say that it is.
      With the exception of Surface and a few tablets, Secure Boot is simple to disable. it's toggling a BIOS option. The OS will not need to be reinstalled (since Secure Boot merely extends UEFI and adds the stipulation that any Boot Loader be signed).


      « Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:53:21 AM by BC_Programmer »
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #22 on: August 18, 2014, 11:39:23 AM »
      Quote
      Secure Boot has nothing to do with Anti-theft
      False.

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 11:48:16 AM »
      False.
      What?  Explain this and find something online that backs this up.

      Right now you are just making nonsense claims.

      You also failed to answer the three simple questions that I asked you.

      Geek-9pm

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #24 on: August 18, 2014, 11:57:07 AM »
      What?  Explain this and find something online that backs this up.
      Right now you are just making nonsense claims.
      No .
      It is his absurd assertion. The burden is on him.

      Quote
      The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the imperative on a party in a trial to produce the evidence that will shift the conclusion away from the default position to one's own position.


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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #25 on: August 18, 2014, 11:59:59 AM »
      I have a dell laptop with SecureBoot (AKA UEFI). It was a simple matter of going into the bios and changing the option UEFI enabled: false. This has nothing to do with anti-theft. However, my laptop DOES have an option for Anti-Theft which I have never enabled, nor intend to.
      To think, that someday, someone will always outdo me.

      camerongray



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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #26 on: August 18, 2014, 12:01:32 PM »
      You are disputing his claim, the burden is totally on you to back your side of the argument up.

      And you have still failed to answer my 3 questions.

      Look, you know that you are wrong about what secure boot is, at least man up and admit it! Or are you just trolling?

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #27 on: August 18, 2014, 12:08:10 PM »
      No .
      It is his absurd assertion. The burden is on him.

      Actually, the burden of proof lies with the person making the initial claim; additionally, it typically lies with the person making the positive claim.

      You are claiming that Secure Boot is somehow related to Anti-theft. This is a positive claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

      You are trying to say that the burden of proof is on me to prove that you are false. That is inappropriately shifting the burden of proof- because you are the one who made the original claim, not I; my assertions to the fallacy of your original claim stand on their own without their own evidence until you provide your own that needs refutation.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #28 on: August 18, 2014, 12:17:22 PM »
      Secure boot options from my laptop:


      Computrace (anti-theft settings) on my laptop:


      As you can see the Secure Boot options are under the boot settings and are easily disabled. The Computrace, under the Security tab, once enabled is very difficult to disable.
      To think, that someday, someone will always outdo me.

      Geek-9pm

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #29 on: August 18, 2014, 03:36:47 PM »
      Tux2,

      Thank you very much for your contribution to this thread.
      Quote
      As you can see the Secure Boot options are under the boot settings and are easily disabled. The Computrace, under the Security tab, once enabled is very difficult to disable.

      About 150,000 computers have Computrace. It is an Anti-Theft measure. Computrace says about 70% or more laptops are recovered.  While Intel will discontinue its anti-theft software, others will continue to have some such implementation in the firmware of select laptops.

      BTW: I do no work for that company nor was it my intent to draw attention to their product. BC did that with his absurd assertion that Computrace did not exist and no computers had it. Thanks again to Tux2 for showing photos that indeed they are real.  :)


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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #30 on: August 18, 2014, 03:44:18 PM »
      Tux2,

      Thank you very much for your contribution to this thread.
      About 150,000 computers have Computrace. It is an Anti-Theft measure. Computrace says about 70% or more laptops are recovered.  While Intel will discontinue its anit-theft software, others will continue to have some such implementation in the firmware of select laptops.
      So now you are just not even going to respond to the fact that Secure Boot is not Anti Theft?  You have STILL not answered my three questions either.  Why is this?

      You do this a lot, you will make nonsense claims and when people dispute them you just ignore responses, try and make the thread take a different direction or simply abandon the thread (as you have done with several others like this).

      C'mon, just provide one bit of evidence that Secure Boot is Anti Theft because nothing I can find online states anything about anti theft.  The definition of Secure Boot from http://blogs.technet.com/b/home_is_where_i_lay_my_head/archive/2013/09/18/enabling-secure-boot-in-windows-8.aspx is:
      Quote
      Secure Boot is a feature on UEFI-based PCs that helps increase the security of a PC by preventing unauthorized software from running on a PC during the boot sequence. It checks that each piece of software has a valid signature, including the operating system that will be loaded.
      Now, if you want to dispute this definition, then provide evidence against it!

      Now, to go back onto your claim that "Secure Boot is not easy to disable" - This image shows the BIOS/UEFI setup utility on my laptop, look how simple it is to disable, just one option!

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #31 on: August 18, 2014, 04:51:05 PM »
      BC did that with his absurd assertion that Computrace did not exist and no computers had it.
      heh, I never made that assertion. CompuTrace wasn't even mentioned.

      You said and repeatedly made implications that Secure Boot was for preventing laptop theft. You never Once in this thread said anything about CompuTrace, a completely different technology. CompuTrace is a feature in the BIOS. It has nothing to do with how the system is booted, and is used for asset tracking as well as theft recovery. The "agent" Software is in the BIOS; once enabled it cannot be disabled and the Agent will install silently into the OS from there.

      At no point does CompuTrace nor SecureBoot cross paths. Disabling SecureBoot does NOT disable CompuTrace.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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      Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
      « Reply #32 on: August 18, 2014, 04:52:47 PM »
      Wow I totally missed that, speechless!  ::)

      Computrace and Secure Boot both exist yet are totally different things!  Secure Boot is not Anti Theft, CompuTrace is.

      The entire point of Tux2's post was to show that CompuTrace is totally separate from Secure Boot.

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        Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
        « Reply #33 on: November 10, 2014, 09:28:18 PM »
        Geek-9PM: Here you go. This is from the official UEFI forum. This document discusses common misconceptions about secure boot:
        http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI_Secure_Boot_in_Modern_Computer_Security_Solutions_2013.pdf

        Excerpt:
        What is UEFI Secure Boot, and how did it originate?
        UEFI Secure Boot was created to enhance security in the pre-boot environment. UEFI Forum members developed
        the UEFI specification, an interface framework that affords firmware, operating system and hardware providers a
        defense against potential malware attacks. Without UEFI Secure Boot, malware developers can more easily take
        advantage of several pre-boot attack points, including the system-embedded firmware itself, as well as the interval
        between the firmware initiation and the loading of the operating system. Malware inserted at this point can
        provide an environment in which an operating system—no matter how secure—cannot run safely. Secure Boot
        helps firmware, operating system and hardware providers cooperate to thwart the efforts of malware developers.
        Additional background on the intent of UEFI Secure Boot can be found in "UEFI Networking and Pre-OS
        Security," published in the Intel Technology Journal [1].

        What are the most common misperceptions about UEFI and UEFI Secure Boot?
        Several misperceptions about UEFI Secure Boot, its intended uses, requirements and application exist within the
        technology and end-user community. A few of the most common are outlined below and in greater depth
        throughout this paper.
        - False: “UEFI Secure Boot is an attempt to ‘lock’ platforms to software from specific vendors and block
        operating systems and software from others.”
        - False: “UEFI Secure Boot requires a TPM chip, as described by the Trusted Computing Group (TCG), and
        TCG controls the UEFI specification.”
        - False: “UEFI Secure Boot requires a specific implementation by computer manufacturers and operating
        system vendors.”

        Additionally, from my experience, if it is anything worth to you, I like to give you this for a thought. I am C3iO for a tech company which maintains a laptop user base of roughly 1200 machines. By our company policy, we will reimburse, within boundaries, each user's laptop and OS purchase, instead of the company forcing one onto them, as long they are able to support the Unix/ Linux based work environment (yes, even Windows laptops are welcome). By current count, 68% are Linux/ Unix installations, the rest being MacOS or Windows. 97% of all have been purchased within the last two years and those, if not Macs, came all with UEFI & secure boot as default settings.
        All have been reinstalled, since we do not allow factory installs. The variety is across the board; Asus, Lenovo, Samsung, Dell, you name it.. The number of laptops we could not reinstall with a different OS is 0 (zero) !

        Geek-9PM, whatever you read on the internet and apparently believe, is not supported by any official documentation, nor reality. I know their have been scare reports and confusion in the early days of secure boot announcements until their-of clarification. I urge you to show me any laptop (not RT, tablet, or army spec model) on sale these days, which can not install any compatible OS (I mean HW compatible OS, not secure boot compatible!) on it by means of disabling secure boot or enabling legacy boot (for a non-UEFI OS).
        Also, as an advise towards efficiency, you are perhaps being better off by maintaining a list of unsupported machines.

        Geek-9pm

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        Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
        « Reply #34 on: November 10, 2014, 11:26:59 PM »
        mmulin, thank you for the post.  Glad to hear from somebody active in the industry and can speak with authority.

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        Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
        « Reply #35 on: November 10, 2014, 11:33:05 PM »
        mmulin, thank you for the post.  Glad to hear from somebody active in the industry and can speak with authority.

        Excellently done passive aggressiveness there. I guess you have to save face somehow.
        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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          Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
          « Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 08:56:00 PM »

          camerongray



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          Re: Do not Put Linux on a New Laptop
          « Reply #37 on: November 14, 2014, 06:42:42 PM »