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Author Topic: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone  (Read 5264 times)

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Geek-9pm

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Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« on: November 21, 2016, 11:44:20 PM »
... x86 emulation for ARM64 :rofl:

Just read the story...
Hard to Believe...
 8)

BC_Programmer


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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2016, 11:59:13 PM »
Considering Windows on Phones is largely affected by the dearth of Applications and software, being able to run standard desktop programs can have a lot of appeal.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Salmon Trout

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 10:16:47 AM »
Nothing at all "hard to believe" here, and no reason to roll on the floor laughing. CPU emulation in software is pretty commonplace. We already have Bochs for ARM architecture which runs MS-DOS. I have Z80 and 68000 emulators on my PC. I could emulate a VAX if I wanted.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 12:15:08 PM »
I am still rolling on the floor.   :)
However, everybody else is taking this as a real thing.
The keywords are:
x86 Emulation on ARM
A google brings up dozens of recent stories and everyone of them take it on face value. Nobody wants to say anything critical. Instead they are saying this is just as important as sliced bread and soft toilet paper.
This might be the only link out there that reflects my knee-jerk reaction.
https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/85365/thinking-x86-emulation-arm
Quote
This is exciting. But it’s also challenging because our experience with past solutions of this kind was lackluster. And there is every reason to believe that x86 apps will run slowly on ARM. It will likely work better for simple apps than it will for big/complex apps like Photoshop, iTunes, or even Chrome.
Quote
...
There have been many efforts to emulate x86 on less-capable platforms. One many might not remember was the Transmeta Crusoe processor, which came to life in an early HP Tablet PC called the Compaq TC1000. That pretty but woeful device offered decent battery life for the day, but Windows and its desktop applications ran horribly slowly, and it quickly disappeared from the market. As did Transmeta. 
f Transmeta had a hard time, how can  Microsoft make it work?

About Transmeta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta
Transmeta was founded in 1995 by Bob Cmelik, Dave Ditzel, Colin Hunter, Ed Kelly, Doug Laird, Malcolm Wing and Greg Zyner.[6][7]
The wiki article outlines how Transmeta was to sell an kind of x86 chip built without using patents from Intel. Some kind of AM design would emulate the features that are otherwise covered by Intel patents.
The company was once named as the Most important company in Silicon Valley in an Upside magazine editorial but failed to obtain profitability while it was a chip vendor.

As time went on, Intel and Transmeta had some very intense adjustments to make. Intel, arguably, came out ahead.

Which begs the question:
Will Intel permit Microsoft emulate x86 on a ARM?  8)

BTW: Microsoft already has deals with the ARM company.

Salmon Trout

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2016, 01:01:28 PM »
This might be the only link out there that reflects my knee-jerk reaction.
https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/85365/thinking-x86-emulation-armf Transmeta had a hard time, how can  Microsoft make it work?

Even that Thurrott guy (who is he?) had this to say in his conclusion:

Quote
But what if it worked? Can you imagine such a thing?

Done correctly, ARM support for x86 could be the final nail in the Windows desktop coffin, the thing that moves us past the legacy code that is now holding us back. I literally just wrote about this problem in The Biggest Problem with Windows Today? The Past. Interesting timing, no?

I don’t want to get too far ahead of ourselves here. It may never happen. It may not happen in time for Redstone 3. It may happen so far out in the future that it doesn’t matter anymore. But if you’ve been pining away for Surface phone or something a bit more nebulous—like Microsoft having an in-house mobile strategy that actually makes sense—this is hopeful news. No promises, yet. But still, hopeful.

So we’ll see what happens.

He says such an emulation probably wouldn't run high end Windows apps like Photoshop but might be OK for e.g. simple Windows 10 apps. I can imagine a near future cutting edge ARM chip could be made to emulate the performance of (say) a low end Intel Atom.

patio

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2016, 01:25:28 PM »
MS announced this project 4 years ago i seem to remember...

Many of these expert writers just run out of material this time of year.
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BC_Programmer


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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2016, 01:27:33 PM »
Quote
If Transmeta had a hard time, how can  Microsoft make it work?

Well, Microsoft tends to do business pretty well. And that is largely where Transmeta screwed up.

Transmeta's issues weren't really related to their x86 emulation, which was purely a software abstraction. Transmeta's issues were largely business; long delays put off prospective customers. This was made worse because after Transmeta's IPO there was a defect found in the chips which lead to a recall of many of the existing tablets. When they moved to a new manufacturer and had Toshiba on board with plans for a new tablet using their chip- the engineering samples sent to Toshiba were found to have manufacturing defects as well, which eventually led to Toshiba axing their plans for a  Tablet using the chips at all.

And this was all 15 years ago when the "Tablet" market was a wholly different marketplace then it is now. There was no real demand for platform homogeneity.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 01:47:02 PM »
Some time ago, I don't when,  the argument was that a RISC  could be dater that a CISC. But that was not really proven to be true.
RISC (Reduced instruction set computer) and CISC (Complex instruction set computer) are the types of instruction set for the processors. ... But now RISC architecture are also implemented with many number of instructions. So, RISC may have more number of instructions than CISC architecture.

Of course, the intellectual property is not open to public study. It requires a license. To date nobody has built an x86  model that has been widely used in the real world. Yes, it is desirable, but the question is about reality. The is no simple metaphor that would illustrate the challenge of doing x86 or a ARM.
For what it is worth, here is a link to the Standford site that gives a  simple explanation of the CISC vs RISC problem.
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/projects/risc/risccisc/
Quote
The simplest way to examine the advantages and disadvantages of RISC architecture is by contrasting it with it's predecessor: CISC (Complex Instruction Set Computers) architecture.
I am still :rofl:

Salmon Trout

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 01:58:50 PM »
CISC vs RISC

I was under the distinct impression that the x86 instruction set is CISC, but modern x86 processort architecture is RISC inside, for some value of "modern" (Pentium Pro and later?).


patio

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2016, 03:51:48 PM »
I was under the distinct impression that the x86 instruction set is CISC, but modern x86 processort architecture is RISC inside, for some value of "modern" (Pentium Pro and later?).

1 of the more clear explanations...
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm

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Re: Windows 10’s Continuum on your pphone
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 03:58:18 PM »
I was under the distinct impression that the x86 instruction set is CISC, but modern x86 processort architecture is RISC inside, for some value of "modern" (Pentium Pro and later?).
Good observation. At one time, a long time ago, The things was about how much complexity was in the instruction set.
Here is a rather old example. Into the time machine....
Code: [Select]
   swap HL [SP] Which might be 'exchange current value of the HL pair with the current value on the stack, do do not move the pointer. That would involve a number of clock cycles, but in CISC it is a single instruction. In RISC a sequence would be needed to to the same thing. The argument is that the amount of time it takes would be about the same. Now back to the future...

Modern CPUs have been simplified internally. Some instructions are now executed using a sequence of ordinary orations instead of having super  logic  that implements the whole thing in hardware.
So yea, modern Intel CPUs are really RISC with a CISC wrapper.  The OS and other tools see it as a CISC, but on the inside is has RISC.
Is that clear?
The reasoning is that we now want to have multi-cores CPUs.So  to keep them in sync they have to work as RISC to avoid the latency issues when you try and get CISC chips to work in parallel.
ARM chips are RISC. To get them to handle a CISC super structure, they need some more logic to translate the CISC codes into simple sequences. This might be what Microsoft wants to do. Rather that a emulator in software only, MS would offer a new kind of ARM design of their own that can do some of the translation. If so, then it will be a kind of hybrid micro code and software marriage. You would have to buy a smartphone that has the new MS ARM chip and also license the MS emulator.
Put another way: It is not just a software emulation. You have to use a new ARM chip that will be an intercultural thing from Microsoft. Wait for details later.