You will not go off the grid. Will you?

[Geek-9pm]

Hey! This is off-topic.

Some of you have worked in engineering and understand the physics involved in going off the grid and having your own electric system to run your household. So I put this here to ask those of you that understand the engineering principles, when is it worthwhile for individuals to try to go off grid completely.

After doing some research on this idea I decided not to post any links to anything I found. There is so much miss information and so many opinions that amounts to a personal decision.

To put it another way, if you have some capital available, you can go completely off the electric power grid and lives just as competently as in the past. Yes, there'll be some issues regarding maintenance and that sort of thing. But there is even when you're tied into the electric system.

Think about it, when anu light bulb goes on in your house, the electric company, and replace it? Of course not. That is your job.

In the United States there are a number of municipalities that have their own electric system. Let me clarify that. The cities buy up wholesale electric from the big power companies and then charge householders for the usage. The city itself handles all the billing procedures. If any maintenance is needed, the city will either have their own workers or hire workers from one of the main power companies. In many places it actually works. Users who are on the city control power system have service just as good, or even better than from the major power companies out there. Sometimes at a lower rate.

I don't know about outside the United States. But here in the United States there are few choices about who you can get as your power company.

Now about the business of going off the grid. Almost always people equate this to getting solar panels on top of your roof. There's more to it than that. There are wind turbines a person can use day or night and there are gasoline and diesel generators that are very efficient. Also, an electrical  generator can be powered by natural gas. Natural gas prices are very low.

Sometimes the objection is made that the use of batteries to store power. They say it is not an economic reality. That could change. And a person does not have to use batteries to store electricity. Energy can be stored in other forms. Hydraulic, pneumatic and kinetic, just to name a few.

Let me clarify a point. If you happen to live in an area where your property has extreme elevations and if you have a supply of water from a nearby stream, you can store up hydraulic power by pumping water uphill into a pool at the top of the hill. Later, you can use that waterpower to turn on the lights in your house at night.

Then there is the business of conserving energy. The new LED lights that come out now make it very cost effective for a person to have their own electric system. You can light up the inside of your house for a fraction of the cost of what it used to be.

Then there's the matter of heat. Using electricity to generate heat is a bad idea if you have available either natural gas or a biomass. The cost of natural gas is so low in many areas that one could go off the grid just by switching over to electricity generated by natural gas. Strange that nobody talks about this.
Anyway, I put this post here because I have been thinking about going off the grid because my local power company is absolutely unreasonable. To comply with their rules I'm either going to pay $1000 a month for my electric bill or I am going to have to invest in over $10,000 of additional equipment to comply with local rules and regulations that would bring down my electric costs.

Bear in mind I am not talking about safety issues. Here in this area the power company has some strange rules about what they call baseline usage. In effect, it prevents a single household from having more than about four people living in the same house. Don't ask  me to explain, that is just the way they do it. If you want more people to live with you, you have to buy another electric meter and have them pay a separate electric bill. Yeah, it's crazy.. But that's what I get for living in California.

Anyway, I would like to hear your remarks or comments about going off the grid. I don't think I'm going to do it. But maybe you could help me make up my mind.

Thanks for reading this and thanks in advance for any comments you have. 

[Computer Hope Admin]

I've thought about going to solar/wind turbines as a way to get off of the power grid or at the very least greatly reduce my power bill. However, even with all of the tax rebates in my state (Utah), I cannot justify the initial cost involved to purchase all of the equipment. Also, there are a lot of big advances being made in the solar and battery industry (e.g. Tesla with their solar powered shingles https://www.tesla.com/solarroof) that I think right now is the wrong time. I think in another 2-3 years the cost of renewable energy solutions is going to greatly decrease or even bigger advancements are going to be made to the point it would be dumb not to switch, and that's when I plan on switching.

I've also read a couple of articles and seen startups talking about solar power panel sharing solutions that would allow you to buy and sell excess power to and from neighbors without dealing with the power company. Something like this could cause an industry change that would affect renewable energy solution prices and the cost of power in general, which is another reason I'm waiting.

[DaveLembke]

I have wanted to go "partially off the grid" .... still in the process someday of doing this. I have a barn that has constant sunlight when the suns up and would be perfect for solar on its roof.

I have some Lead Acid Automotive batteries from 3 vehicles I no longer have that the batteries are still good. I charge them occasionally to top them off since when they sit over a period of time they slowly drain. I use them mainly for 750 watts + 1000 watts ( 2 inverters ) 120VAC when camping or during a power outage to have silent power. I also have 2 generators one of them a small 2500 watt and the other is 4800 watts. The smaller one is still new in its original box. Havent added gasoline because then i'd have to worry about the ethanol in the tank and carburetor. The 4800 watt generator I have the fuel shut off valve and run it until the bowl is empty to store it with a dry carburetor, and I start it once every month or so to keep it running and add fresh gasoline to the old 5 gallon tank of gasoline to revitalize the fuel so that it doesnt go completely stale and then not run or pop and spit on stale gas at time of need because its not as flammable as it once was so lesser power produced on it. I have been running it and adding fresh to the old gasoline for 3 years now without running through an entire tank of gasoline yet and its been ok so far. Its nice being able to run 2 refrigerators, lights, TV, Internet, Telephone, Microwave, and other stuff during a power outage off of the 4800 watt generator that has a 120/240VAC output choice. But its loud when it runs and while it has 9 hours rated run time on 5 gallons, it not something the neighbors would like to hear past 10pm, so the Lead Acid automotive batteries allow for lighting and TV, Internet, and other needs when I need to be quiet but power is out.  *At some point I will get Deep Cycle batteries in place of the Automotive Batteries which are the proper use for this type of application... Automotive batteries are really just intended for a quick cranking of an engine to start vs a long draw without an alternator to rejuvenate and constantly top off while engine is running.

Also have a project on hold where I was converting an exercise bike to make 120VAC and around 120Watts. That project placed on hold when my wife heard the purpose of it. I wanted to get my daughter who was 10 at the time to exercise and so if you want to play video games and watch tv, you can pedal to power it and this way no couch potatoes. And watching TV and playing games for long periods of time is healthy     At some point I will finish this because I like the idea of exercising and powering stuff or storing to battery bank energy produced. I was going to control the torque resistance by a circuit board I made that controls how strongly of a charge is applied to the battery bank. The weaker the electricity applied to batteries the easier it is to pedal, but the more power applied to batteries, the greater the amperage able to be squeezed into the batteries to change it and so more mechanical resistance when pedaling because your fighting the field where greater electrical draw = greater mechanical resistance to whoever pedals it. I have an alternator from the 1997 Mazda 626 which I will connect to it and  have a push button to a 12V battery and you basically would start pedaling and then push the momentary switch to start the field in the alternator and then as long as you continue to pedal or your output from pedaling is greater than the draw to keep the field from collapsing in the alternator, you can continue to generate electricity. I tested this with a horizontal drive motor to spin it and wired it up with momentary switch and I powered up to 750 watts off of it through inverter. The Alternator is a 90 AMP, so I could create up to 9 AMPS of 120VAC, however the more amps the more torque required.

Also wanted to make a sterling motor and make power that way, but I realized that I would need a brook or something to have a temperature offset to run it. Winters it might work good because you could have a good natural temperature offset between the outside air temperature and a solar heat cabinet like a green house. But havent made that yet and to buy a sterling motor they are pricey. So I will machine my own. Just need the time to do it pretty much. The sterling motor would  spin a small dynamo which would trickle charge lead acid batteries with control to not stall the sterling by trying to charge too aggressively.

But Solar is the easiest. I would just need to buy it and install them and tie them all together. No moving parts. But the cost of the setup before I have a positive return on my investment would take years, and solar panels dont last forever and they lose efficiency as they age.

Right now I'm still on the grid, but have plans to someday be partially off the grid for barn and maybe lighting in home as for I have switched to mostly LED lighting at 7w-14w each. The heavy power needs of washing machine, dryer, microwave, and refrigerators will have to still take from the grid. I know that i could sell excess power back to power company, but the cost of the hardware to make that happen and the small scale solar that i have plans for just seems foolish as for it would take forever and a day to sell enough power back to power company to offset that cost, so its best that I just use my own power for myself and not trickle the little bit back to the grid. If anything I will add more Lead Acid batteries as they become available for free or inexpensively when healthy automotive batteries or marine deep cycle batteries can be acquired.

Biggest danger with my setup is lead acid batteries if anything metal falls across the posts = shower of sparks and a fire, and so I built a wooden cabinet that I store them in so that if anything gets knocked over its not a problem in barn. I dont have the batteries teamed yet, but will team them eventually to increase my amperage of my 12VDC to last longer under load.The batteries I keep out in barn and charge there as well because I dont like the idea of hydrogen gas created in my home. The barn is drafty and so no pockets of it will form and cause an explosion.

[Geek-9pm]

Whenever you put lead-acid batteries in an enclosure, your must provide some way of venting g the hydrogen gas to the outside.

[DaveLembke]

Nods...    I dont charge them in that wooden cabinet, its just used right now as a safe storage so that a shovel or coil of chicken wire doesnt somehow fall onto the battery posts. I will drill a bunch of holes in the wooden cabinet someday when i team them and charge them in there in which the charging process is when hydrogen vents. Adequate airflow through it with a bunch of 1" or 2" diameter holes with circle cutter will do the job in the sides and lid. The battery posts would be protected by rubber boots same as you see on modern cars with the red and black rubber boot. Hydrogen lighter than air and so it will vent out top. 

One of my friends brothers works pulling parts out of cars by order from an auto salvage yard and he has about 12 automotive batteries he got cheap and healthy of same CCA rating teamed parallel in a metal shed, and a 2500 watt inverter which came at a premium, but it allows him to run his oil furnace winters when electric is out at night without neighbors angry about generator. Then if power is still out, during day he powers the home + charges the battery bank when he can make noise without making neighbors angry, and pull 75-80% of the maximum power draw which is where the generator operates most efficient. *The only undersight on his battery bank is that, cold batteries give off less power then room temperature batteries so he had to add a 65 watt flood light in his cabinet to keep the batteries warm, so the minute that power goes out on say a -15F night, the batteries in the cabinet from the single 65 watt flood light might be around 30F and not so chilled. Its also the reason why he has 12 of them is the more cold batteries teamed the lesser that they behave like cold batteries all connected parallel with fused links so that if a plate shorts in a battery etc it will pop the fuse and open the connection to bummed battery vs 11 of them ganging up on the 1 that decided to die giving it an unexpected flaming funeral in the metal shed away from the house.

My comment on this was #1 ... why not just add a separate chimney and have a wood stove, or do away with oil and go to wood. #2 ... why dont you make a custom muffler for the generator that will make it run quieter.

His answers were... wood stoves are dirty, doesnt want to be bothered with having to feed it wood, a fire hazard, and a chimney and wood stove costs way more than what his setup cost him to put in himself. As far as custom muffler he agreed that that would be a good idea but he would have to have his brother weld maybe an automotive resonator and muffler that would bolt onto the generator. Then send the exhaust out a hole in shed to outside, with hole bigger than muffler pipe so that it doesnt come to rest on the sheet metal and make for a very loud vibrating shed.