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Author Topic: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.  (Read 4430 times)

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Geek-9pm

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Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« on: August 02, 2017, 02:37:40 PM »
Can I run my PC with the cover alwasy off?

This ws found on another forum:
"understand the attraction of all these expensive copper hsfs, and similar things, and water cooling clearly is the ultimate in cooling, but why the *censored* can't you just leave the sides of your tower open and let it cool that way? i have a 1.2ghz t-bird running on an a7v133, with a 64mb gf2 gts, and both the cpu and the gf run at about 43 to 46 c at idle, and about 49 or so after playing q3a for a half hour. that's with the side panel off, with the panel on the temps are all six or seven degrees higher....  have one exhaust fan and one intake (both 80mm). so is there anything wrong with running like this?  "
(The poster did not give his name.)

The image below is from Computer Hope Images.
Notice the presence of a highly skilled feline.


Many say that running without the case should improve cooling. Really,  the CPU is  the area that needs cooling and has to have a fan even if the cover is off.
Others believe the cover is required by FCC to reduce radio and TV interference,. That is true. Without the cove the PC will exceed t interference limiots.
Another concern is safety for small children.
The there is the possibility  mice might build a nest inside.
If a small screw,  paper clip or metal object falls into the PC, serious damage can be done to the motherboard.

Nobody mentioned  the cover is needed to use high-speed USB devices. Did you know that? In documented  cases, the USB data  rate will slow down because of data corruption due to interference radiated from the PC going into the USB cable.


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BC_Programmer


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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 02:58:14 PM »
That post from the other forum must be over a decade old if it is referring to contemporary equipment.

Without the side panel it is going to be louder, acquire more dust, and be unprotected from household objects accidentally becoming airborne. Metal objects in particular- You pull a book out of a bookshelf and knock some miscellaneous object down nearby and it could very easily bounce right into the case and possibly cause problems.

I would not expect additional RF noise from removing the side panel(s) to affect digital transfers, though it could affect analog connections (particularly line level audio, for example)

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 03:21:56 PM »
It has been documented, but not widely known.
When the cover is off, RF energy  levels increase outside the case and get into external USB devices.
The topic is cover is many broad articles about the need for EMI protection. But such articles seldom give specific examples other than  radio and TV interference.
Here is a typical article:
http://incompliancemag.com/article/the-basic-principles-of-shielding/
However, they do give a chart that represents what you might find.

michaewlewis



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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 03:51:58 PM »
I seriously doubt that RF from the computer would cause much, if any, signal degradation for file transfers, USB3 or otherwise. I don't care to look up the FCC regulations, but that sounds bogus, too. If there is EMI, it's probably short range and short lived.
At any rate, if someone wants a "naked" computer, this case is a little more visually appealing than beige (what ever happened to GX1-Man?).

Geek-9pm

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 04:37:49 PM »
You doubt is understandable.
Quote
f there is EMI, it's probably short range and short lived.
Short range? Yes. move away and the problem is negligible.
Short lived? No.
A desktop PC emits a constant stream  of EMI that is blocked by the panels  on the chassis. The FCC rules  are, for the most part, TO prevent undue interference to radio and TV  reception. But the EMI can cause trouble with a wide range of electronic devices, both analog and digital.

EMI from a Desktop PC is a real concern in some industrial applicators where the have to ask the maker  to provide proof a  PC is not making EMI.

The actual cases that have been reported are so few that  one could easily dismiss the prof. In does not catch the attention of mass-media. The FCC rules are bases on real measurements of real equipment.

This sort of thing sis in my field of interest. I have held  amateur radio licenses for a number of years.  One was KF6BU.






patio

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 05:47:15 PM »
Really Geek ? ?

Research todays EMI levels...compared to the 20 year old articles you are so prone to quote...
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 06:14:49 PM »
Few people would keep the cover off. So it is not a big thug. What got me was that somebody went to length to say why he liked the cover off option.

Understandably, I is hard to find current information that  on that specific and unlikely topic.

It is not earth-shaking news., so nobody shouts and screams about it. The information is there, but not always clear to everybody.  I mean you don't have to tell people to close the door when you leave the house. Nor should you need to tell a DIY person  to put the cover back on the PC. But maybe a few think the cover off is better.

As regard to a Desktop computer, the  EMI levels are very high when you remove a cover that is being as a shield. No, not enough to cook an egg. But enough to make it hard for others in the house to enjoy a radio program from another city.

The few articles that deal with EMI do so in a fanatic way to make people think horrible things will happen. I am not going to get into that kind of trash. My point was the the radiation will interfere with USB data transfer. I am not saying you will get a headache, get a letter from THE FBI nor will it kill your pet cat.

All I said was that with the cover off, the USB data rate to an external device, a HDD, will slow down. The system recovers from errors, does reties and keeps on going. But at a loss of data rate.

I happened to me recently, so I though I would mention it.

BTW, Wi-Fi devices interfere with USB 3.0 and vice versa. It is documented.

camerongray



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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 06:31:50 PM »
I really can't see any reason to run a machine with the side off beyond when you're actively doing stuff with the hardware.  The airflow in a case is designed to work with the side panel on, removing the side panel messes with this.  On certain machines, in particular large servers where the airflow inside the system is crucial, it's common for the machine to either ramp the fans up to full speed or shut off altogether if they are operated with the case open.  If you're finding you are getting better temperatures with the case open I'd be looking into whether you have sufficient case fans.

To me it just seems to be risking damage, especially if you are like me and keep the PC on the floor, really don't want to suddenly end up smashing my foot into my motherboard!

As far as the RFI goes, it seems to be more of a myth than anything, look at the number of cases nowadays that have entirely glass side panels.  I do a fair bit of software defined radio work and I've never found my PC itself to cause RFI, the largest source I found for RFI was a dodgy power brick for an HDMI matrix switch.  I've seen a couple of ATX PSUs that caused noticeable interference on certain frequencies however there was no difference whether the case was open or not.  If you find your PC to be causing RFI with the case open then I'd be seriously suspicious of components such as your power supply.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 06:51:46 PM »
It has been documented, but not widely known.

The fact that Electrical interference is a thing is not documentation that it affects things like USB. That's why I mentioned that it affects Analog signalling- because it does. Digital signalling is largely designed to handle interference it may receive, and domestic sources aren't likely to affect it's ability to handle the digital data.

In your original post you said there are documented cases of USB speeds being affected by RF interference.

You linked none of them. How many "documented cases" are there, and is a "documented case" a forum thread?
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 08:56:54 PM »
Quote
In your original post you said there are documented cases of USB speeds being affected by RF interference.
I can not find on source that says that in simple consist words.
Is USB subject to EMI from electronic circuity?
Yes, that is well know in the industry.
Are the side panels of a modern PC needed to reduce or control EMI?
Yes, that is documented.

How much EMI can USB resist? I have no information on how much. The factors include the quality of the USB cable, the design of the connectors and the length and placement of the cable.

USB 2.0 has three speeds. The different speeds allow different kinds of devices to use USB. But there is more to it that just that.
At low speed a USB data connection is very reliable. At higher speeds error rates go down  Why do they go down ? Little green men? - No. Phase of the Moon? No. It is from EMI in the environment. The USB will either do retires or else reduce the speed. Either way, the data transfer drops.

Other factors also influence speed. Overhead in  a process, a device that is not responsive, or another process that has priority.

When building a new prototype, the design engineer has to think about EMI trouble with USB. After the design has proved to be clean, he next may find that adding a USB port ruins the specs for EMI.
Here is a PDF from  Digi-Key.
The PDF does not say USB runs poor with EMI present. Rather is says you might have trouble with your design unless you use their filter to cur EMI on the USB port. They claim the filter thy offer can bring EMI down to very low levels in the VHF range.


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patio

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 09:08:10 PM »
This is turning into complete balderdash...with ""documentation"" that doesn't exist...

This will be closed soon.
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 09:56:23 PM »
Patio, I need more time.
Some references I can not use because they are not in electronic format and I can not afford to buy them. You have to go to a technical book store and read them.
So I am trying to find posts where somebody with authority makes a clear statement.
Do not imagine that EMI is a thing of the past. It is still with us.
Meanwhile, here is the buzzword needed in searching.
Electromagnetic compatibility
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_compatibility
This is an engineering area where a new design has to be able to function without causing harm to existing equipment. And the reverse, a new design may get EMI from older equipment.
Time for me to get to bed.   :)
EDIT: Another link. I will explain later.
https://hollandshielding.com/EMI-shielded-glass
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 10:07:59 PM by Geek-9pm »

michaewlewis



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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 09:00:20 AM »
Really Geek ? ?
the 20 year old articles

You have to go to a technical book store and read them.

Well, I'm convinced.


I really can't see any reason to run a machine with the side off beyond when you're actively doing stuff with the hardware. The airflow in a case is designed to work with the side panel on, removing the side panel messes with this.

Not all cases are created equally. Some manufactures just make a box that you can put computer stuff into and they don't care about airflow. Maybe that is what OP had and is why it was better than with it closed up. ??? But it looks like a 20 year old picture, so who knows.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 12:32:01 PM »
Some thoughts about leaving the cover off of a desktop computer.
What motivated me to post this topic in the first place was a recent bad experience I had.
True confession. I confess, I am one of those persons that sometimes leaves the lid off of my desktop computer because I'm still working on it is some way.  And then I'm still working on it the next day. So I  forget to put the lid on. An I forge why it is important.  :-[
Well, after getting my computer to work good again, it's time to make a new backup of the whole system. I have an external backup device that is well-made and has always been very reliable. But something has happened. It's not working right. Now  Windows can't find the device.Try again, now  the device is running very slowly. At that point I start recalling all the training and experience I've had with different kinds of electronic devices. So I suspect that RFI from my computer is interfering with my external hard disk drive enclosure. Sure enough, I close up the computer like it should be in the first place and my external hard disk drive behaves normally.
From previous research that I have done, I found that other sources say that  most often the problem comes from the USB cable.  Besides the cable itself, the connectors can play a part in RFI problems.
In one of the posts above I included a link to a PDF file I found from one of the electronic parts companies. They are selling a device to eliminate any kind of RFI or EMI problems with the USB connection. The device contains filters to eliminate both common mode and differential noise pickup and it also has a clamping device that will suppress static discharges.
Most of the time nobody would ever need such device. However, there is a need for such a device, and that's why they were manufactured and that's why they are being sold. In a few extreme cases there has to be a filter on the USB port to get rid of noise that is found in the environment.
Now back to the cover issue. When the cover is off of a personal computer the amount of electrical energy that starts flowing around the outside of the case increases by a very large factor. It will increase by almost 4 magnitudes. Which is another way of saying there will be about 10,000 times as much electrical energy on the outside of the case. With the cover in place most of the electrical energy is confined to the inside of the case.
Apparently some people don't believe this because you don't see it. Of course you don't see it, that's why it's called radio frequency. If it were visible light, the inside of your computer would glow like a an open barbecue pit fire.

Now a  word about the FCC regulations. Yes, these regulations are very, very old. I studied these regulations when I was a youngster and got my first FCC license as a broadcast engineer. Since then, RFI has not somehow disappeared into the ether. It still exists. Any electronic device that uses any amount of energy will generate some type of radio frequency emissions that will radiate outward unless there is some kind of shield to prevent this from happening. However, there are no documented cases where the FCC barged into somebody's house and told them to put the cover on their desktop computer. Most likely it is because few people do such a thing anyway. If you want to prove this for yourself you can take a portable radio or TV set or whatever kind of device you like to use and bring it near your computer and see how much noise it will  get off the computer. You will note that most of the radiation is coming off of cables that come out of the computer. The box itself is wary well shielded. Not snap off the cover off your desktop PC and noticed that the noise level on your portable FM radio will go up quite a bit. Yes, you'll still be able to hear local FM stations because that's the way FM works. FM has much better resistance to RFI. But do not assume this means that modern computers generate less noise than the older designs. That conclusion is wrong. Although newer computers are better made in many respects, they still radiate energy into space. The only way to stop this is to have everything shielded. Full shielding of the printed circuit board is not very practical. So the reasonable thing to do is to mount the entire thing inside of a metal box that has very tight fittings.
Of course, the box has to be ventilated. As has been mentioned by others, a desktop computer benefits from having forced air cooling that ducks the airflow over critical areas of the motherboard. Trying to keep the entire contents of the motherboard cool is not the objective. The parts the motherboard that need attention are the CPU and the memory modules. A good design will have forced air going over the CPU and at least one other fan pushing air over the motherboard. In most designs the power supply also has to have its own fan.
What about computer cases with glass panels? Many home brew computers have been built with either glass or plastic openings to allow the owner to enjoy looking at the inside of his computer. In order to comply with FCC rules, THE  glass or plastic cover must be of a type that reduces radio frequency emissions from the inside of the computer. I provided a link to at least one company that offers this kind of material for anybody that needs it.
As of this date, I have never seen any articles about the FCC imposing fines on the makers of computer cases. I suppose this is because homemade computers are only a very small part of the personal computer demographics.
The FCC in recent years has come down hard on some institutions and companies that ignore the FCC regulations. Apparently some institutions think that the FCC  rules do not apply to them. There have been two well-documented cases where the FCC went after institutions that use a large number of defective light fixtures. These defective fluorescent light fixtures were generating so much parasitic radiation that it interfered with commercial cell phone operators. These operators, AT&T in one case, and  Verizon in the other case, had to nag the FCC until something was done. It took a while before the guilty parties responded and finally did something about the defective materials found in the light fixtures.
The point being made here is that the FCC is still finding instances where uncontrolled spurious radiation from some devices are causing serious problems in radio communications. So to not imagine that somehow our newer devices are so pure that they no longer generate any kind of spurious radiation. Not true.
I would rather not post a whole bunch of links to a bunch of different articles about RFI and related issues. Most of them are just too technical and very long. But here's something you can do at home. Take off the case cover from your desktop PC. Notice how it fits. Is this it sloppy or lose? No it's tight and fits very well. Why do they do that? Because a tight connection between metal and metal is essential to keeping radio frequency emissions inside the case.
So am I telling you that the world will end if you leave the cover off of your computer? No, I never said that. My point was that there are enough reasons to keep the cover in place that you just ought to keep in place. What got me started on this was that somebody somewhere was spouting about how he thought it was better to leave the cover off the case to make it cooler. That guy, whoever he was, did not understand what he was talking about. If the manufacturer really wanted more ventilation for the computer case, he would've put a bunch of holes in it. What is funny is that I found at least one poster who said he was going to put holes in his case so it would ventilate better. Apparently there is no limit to the amount of ignorance that some few computer owners have.

At this point I'm going to stop making anymore additions  to this thread.   :)

EDIT: One last thing. You may like some images. Try this on a search engine:
Field strength images
And find both pages and images that relate to how RFI is measured.

pcurtj1974

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Re: Can I, Should I, Run Desktop Naked.
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 02:06:33 PM »
I shield everything, and turn off any IR devices. EMI & static can emit from any electronic device. A hair dryer is a worst offender so don't blow dry your desktop. Many hardware failures can be attributed to electro-static fields.