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Author Topic: Help with configuring an industiral DOS system  (Read 4134 times)

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AlbertKermin

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    Help with configuring an industiral DOS system
    « on: November 15, 2018, 09:00:41 PM »
    First off, hello! I'm Albert, I'm a sci-fi nerd, and new to this forum (also, I'm hoping I'm posting this in the correct forum!). 

    My plant has some extremely outdated DOS (1985,refurbished in 1990s) computers running our Semi-automated Pick and Place machines , and one recently lost it's motherboard. I was able to find an exact replacement (it's a NixSys NX853, with a celron 2.40GHz, and 256 MB of DDR), but I can't get the machine to recognize it's normal touchscreen or keyboard- I have an alternate keyboard that's working, however.

    That's not the problem, however. The problem is that it won't boot into the proprietary machine software, which runs on top of DOS, instead giving me an "Error 8- there is not enough memory available" when initializing the network card (picture below). The memory installed is the same size and make as the original, and I tried swapping out the new memory with the board for the old, but no dice.

    I looked it up, and what I saw suggested it was an error in CONFIG.SYS, so I mucked about with that for a while, and eventually got it to give me something else- "Error 3658- the IFSHLP.SYS driver is not installed."

    I looked it up again, and google suggested that adding "DEVICE=C:\Windows\IFSHLP.SYS" to the CONFIG.SYS might fix things. It brought me back to the "error 8" problem again.

    I've noticed a few things-

    -The only hard drive is configured as slave, rather than master. Could this be fouling things up? (there's also a floppy drive, but it's currently unplugged.)
    -The proprietary machine software requires an internet connection, which is why it's not running. I believe the problem is local to this machine, since the older, non-refurbished machine runs fine. Could it be something in the networking configuration that shipped from the factory that's messing up the connection, causing the driver to use up memory?

    Fair warning- I'm not the greatest computer geek. I'm just my company's ONLY computer geek. So if I sound like an idiot- well, I am, when it comes to these things. If anyone can help me, I'd extremely appreciate it (my boss is starting to breathe down my neck about this)!


    DaveLembke



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    Re: Help with configuring an industiral DOS system
    « Reply #1 on: November 16, 2018, 11:59:43 AM »
    Memory error could be BASE Memory Complaint.... when you run the command MEM how much base memory is free after it loads all the TSR's?

    It should show your base memory and then how much is free. I use to have problems with some older programs when the base memory dropped below 590k from 640k.

    Were you sure to keep the Autoexec.bat and Config.sys files the same config as the prior build so that himem.sys ( for XMS memory functionality ), emm386.exe, and other configurations would remain the same?

    Which Version of DOS are you using?  ( if you enter VER at the command prompt it should tell you if you dont know )


    Additionally if your running strictly DOS and not Windows its only touching a very small amount of that 256MB with most of it unused and un-addressable from DOS.

    The Celeron 2.4Ghz with 256MB RAM is very overkill for what your software does if its strictly DOS and not Windows. I am surprised your not running into issues with Serial Port communications and proprietary cards that are ISA that are unsupported with the motherboard.

    20 years ago I use to service Contact Systems CS-400E  PCB Assembly Machines... Your screenshot looks similar to that system. Rockwell Automation/Allen-Bradley sent me to Danbury, CT for training on supporting and servicing them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FARnjIP-5k

    Only big problem we had with the CS-400E was the parts bin that lifts and turns trays into position for PCB Assembler to reach in and grab components would sometimes catch and when it released from the snap it would spin and whip parts out of it all over the floor.  ::) Additionally operators running it with jewelry or very light skin with bright overhead lighting would defeat the light curtain safety and so some people have gotten their fingers pinched. The solution was operators needed to wear a black glove so the light curtain wouldnt get tricked into no hand present.

    If my memory is correct on the CS-400E it was running DOS 6.0 or 6.22 and a 486 DX 66Mhz CPU. We got them in 1995 and when I was laid off in 2001 I serviced them on the side for other businesses that had them as well as the older C and D models.

    AlbertKermin

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      Re: Help with configuring an industiral DOS system
      « Reply #2 on: November 16, 2018, 03:03:35 PM »
      Yep, it's a CS-400E. (So cool that you actually trained on fixing them!!  :) ) Based on archived information I've found out on the internet, the factory refurbished some of them, and replaced the computer with the NixSys NX853/Celron, because that's what was in it and running when we bought it from our parent company . I don't think I'm running into any issues with the cards? Like I said, I'm not that great with this stuff. :(

      I didn't touch Autoexec.bat,  and I made a copy of  Config.sys before I started mucking around with it (there's also a backup copy on the computer.) Also- correction. The line I had added was DEVICE=C:\NET\IFSHLP.SYS. There isn't a windows folder on the drive.  :-[

      Our SAPPS are actually fairly docile- I think they have pinched someone's hand once in the last four years, but I'll have to remember that trick with the glove in case they decide to start. However, ours have their own unique problems- they're set between the wave solder machines and the SMT solder ovens, across from the board washing plant. Background noise hovers around 60 dB on a good day :(

      I'll attach screen-shots when I get home, but it looks like there's 431K conventional and 13K upper memory free, and it's version 6.22.

      Thank you for helping with this! :)

      « Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 03:27:41 PM by AlbertKermin »

      DaveLembke



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      Re: Help with configuring an industiral DOS system
      « Reply #3 on: November 18, 2018, 01:38:57 PM »
      Is this the only CS-400E that you have? ( If you have another available you can copy the autoexec.bat and config.sys from a known good state system to this system via the floppy drive that should be located under the keyboard section. )

      Additionally unless you really need this networked, you could run this offline and free up base memory by not having the drivers running as TSR's. Base memory is the first 640k of your system RAM. Everything there after is Extended Memory to DOS. If your base memory is too low then programs that require running in base memory will fail and give memory errors of not enough memory even though the system has clearly more than enough.

      We had 2 of these CS-400E's and updates were performed manually through the table jog and selection for spacing and polarity pin blinking etc, and programming process which then was saved to 1.44MB Floppy Disk and of which could then be shared with the neighboring CS-400E. Additionally they ran offline as stand alone units and weren't connected to network. So if your able to run these offline, then I'd remove the lines that mount the networking drivers and this will boost your base memory and then it might work for you.

      Are you familiar with servicing them and programming them for jogging the table and setting the cut & clinch inward/outward and lead length etc? If your employer is able to send you to Danbury, CT for training, ( if they still offer training on a 23 year old machine ), its so well worth the training. They cover everything from programming it to troubleshooting and fixing it.

      Off subject below but might be interesting:

      While at Rockwell Automation/ Allen Bradley in Lebanon, NH from 1995 to 2001, I assisted with PCB Production and worked in the Service Department as a Senior Electronics Technician servicing the production boards that failed testing as well as units that people blew up in the field. Going to training was just a 3 hour drive to CT down US 91 South to 84 West. Training for me and another guy was like $2500 each for a 4 day training with their engineers and technical instructors at Contact Systems.

      I did pretty much everything there on the production side of things Wave Solder Operator, PCB Assembler on a bench with racks of PCBs and a BOM or by use of the CS-400E's, QC, Rework, Post Wave Assembly, Testing, and Troubleshooting and Fixing, as well as worked with engineering to test new products or new firmware etc, as well as assist them in troubleshooting why a new board spin wasnt working to which it was either a mistake in the design that required them to drill or grind out boards and make a break in an incorrect trace and then leave the drill hole or fill the PCB with epoxy to mask the altered trace. Other fun was in extreme temperature testing with a room that baked boards and products at 150F for 24 hours as well as we would test samples of chips with canned air held upside down to chill chips to see if they are susceptible to extreme cold making them wig out.

      Being a jack of all trades and a sponge for as much overtime and opportunities that they sent my way was very beneficial there.

      In one situation a Senior ET was out on leave and I saw a need to help out. I created my own boards that made my production test job easier and faster, and I would use my spare time to be helpful. Well work that should have taken 3.5 hours I got done in 1 hour because I made a serial splitter board with opto-isolators driving the serial communications to more than one controller at a time. So instead of downloading over 9600 baud serial to one controller I was mass downloading to 8 at a time. I basically was testing to see if I had one controller connected for RX/TX and others as RX only if a group of same systems at 9600 baud would all successfully get the same download. They did because the TX response from the ones that were RX only from my 8 splitter board were handshaking at the same timing as the single controller in the chain that was both TX/RX. I did this without telling anyone with spare chips I had. All the ETs made their own trick boards and I made this as a 8 controller download splitter.

      So long story short, I went home on my lunch break and brought in a old 8088 XT computer and installed the companies test program called Accell to it, and set myself up with an area to grab failed boards and service them. I didnt ask for permission and I basically gave myself a promotion to the position as Senior ET. This one woman named Carol in that department was very happy I came over and helped and the backlog of products to fix were all getting fixed. Come friday though I got caught!  ::)

      So they said how did you have time to do both jobs. So I shared with them the Serial Splitter board I made, and demonstrated it to them in its perfectly functional and safe to product state. Then i said with my extra time I made by making a long process shorter for testing where the serial download was a long process added up single downloads at a time, that i was able to perform 8 downloads in the time that 1 download took to the controllers known as IMC S-Class Controllers. I decided to take this extra time I made for myself and give it to the benefit of the company by bringing in a spare old computer from home and going to use my skills that the company hasnt really tapped into the full potential of.  ;D

      I thought I was going to get fired that day. But the plant manager met with me and ran me through a drill of questions. Then the head engineer came in with a grin and asked me questions. Then the engineer got the plant manager to come back in and there was the longest 15 seconds of silence that i was breaking a sweat thinking this is it, im getting fired.

      To my surprise the plant manager stated that this situation is a difficult one and Im thinking here we go im fired. He said you took it upon yourself to do a job that isnt your job, but you clearly have the skill set to do the job as Carol thought you were sent to her from your boss to assist and you weren't but you pulled us out of a backlog of broken products and you fixed them all correctly. So another 15 second pause and then how would you like to be a Senior Electronics Technician and get a $5 an hour raise to $13.50 an hour from the $8.50 an hour you were making... WOW  :o  ( That was good money back in 1996  :) )

      YES!  ;D ... They then said you broke so many rules and regulations that you should have been fired. But because you saved the company from angry customers waiting for their products to be fixed we ( plant manager and head engineer ) feel that you should be rewarded with the position that you obviously have an interest in. However ... the computer you brought in from home and used here with the company software installed on it needs to be wiped clean and that has to leave here immediately! I said I will format the hard drive and show you that no company software leaves this building, however if you want to keep the 8088XT you can as well because it was just a spare of mine. He grinned and this was unusual of a man who was always serious and stern, and said we can buy a new computer and we dont have any need for donated computers being the multi billion dollar company that we are.

      So not suggesting at all that you copy my path of self promotion, because it would likely lead to losing a job vs getting a promotion but thought you might find that interesting.  ;D

      When the Office Space movie came out and they had the "Meeting with the Bobs Promotion scene"... people who knew me and the situation at work getting promoted where most would be fired for pulling what i pulled, additionally i had late attendance issues laying in bed with alarm clock going off with boss calling at home asking if I am coming into work today. I was very much like Peter.  ;D 

       I've corrected my behavior though since then to be more professional and on time as well as not do anything at the risk of getting fired.

      I now service and fix automation machinery for the United States Postal Service's letter and package sorting machinery as a Level 10 Electronics Technician at $72,000 per year base salary with some co-workers making 6 figures that enjoy overtime. I made $94,000 last year from soaking up some overtime and been here 9 years. A good job that pays well and good benefits. If your good with electronics the USPS has a need for skilled Electronics Technicians and starting salary is around $60,000 per year. They also dumbed down the 955 Test that is used for Testing for Potential Electronics Technicians.

      Our site in White River Junction, VT has a need for a Electronics Technician for 11pm to 7:30am shift and it hasnt been filled yet and its been vacant for 1.5 years. And other sites are also hurting for skilled Electronics Techs. They really need skilled ET's and so if your in the USA and good with basic electronics which is the requirement to pass the test. You could get hired and probably make more than your making at your current job.  ;D


      Lisa_maree



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      Re: Help with configuring an industiral DOS system
      « Reply #4 on: November 18, 2018, 07:22:21 PM »
      Hi Albert

      From the screen shot you posted either the controller was booting from a combination of the Hard drive and a floppy disk or the hard drive has read errors. The drive should be master or cable select depending on the IDE cable if it is the only drive on the cable then set it to master.

      To test the hard drive you could use MHDD from here http://hddguru.com/software/2005.10.02-MHDD/
      It will run from floppy disk.
      If the floppy drive had a 3com floppy disk in it this may be needed to get the files needed to start dos networking. And could be the errors of drive not ready.
      Also Check in the bios on one of the earlier machines that there isn't a page of memory reserved. If there is then you will need to reserve the same address range.
      I always photograph all the bios settings as well as do a complete backup of any drives. Just encase you need to replace the motherboard or re setup the bios.

      The original motherboard what was wrong with it? if it was just the capacitors you should be able to get these replaced
       
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