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Author Topic: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft  (Read 10736 times)

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patio

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Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« on: February 13, 2009, 06:57:48 AM »
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The European Commission initiated new antitrust proceedings against Microsoft last month for bundling Internet Explorer with its Windows operating system, and now the open-source group behind Firefox has become involved as well. Specifically, Mozilla has been granted what's called "interested third party" status in the case, which allows it to submit arguments to the European regulator and access confidential case files.

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 10:03:04 PM »
...which will never happen in US...sad, isn't it?

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 11:20:53 PM »
I'm disappointed in Mozilla.

I'm sure they wouldn't want a private group deciding how they packaged their product. Bunch of cry babies with lawyers is how I see it.

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 11:38:43 PM »
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... how they packaged their product.
Where do you get that idea?
It is about breaking the law.
When a company will lie, cheat, threat and harass, it not about packaging.
And that is so in the USA or anyplace in the civilized world.




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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2009, 09:42:30 AM »
Yea, OK....

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2009, 10:12:31 AM »
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... how they packaged their product.
Where do you get that idea?
It is about breaking the law.
When a company will lie, cheat, threat and harass, it not about packaging.
And that is so in the USA or anyplace in the civilized world.





when you have a corporate advantage, you use it. The fact that that company (Microsoft) had a monopoly in the market is irrelevant. In the case of the previous IE Vs Netscape war, it was fully possible for netscape to get a much wider user base then they did before Microsoft made it free, and subsequently had it install with windows 98. If Netscape had been more proactive and had a bit of foresight as to what their main competitor, being also the vendor of a operating system, might do, they could have easily slashed the price of netscape (possibly made it free for a usable edition, with a paid upgrade of sorts) they could have easily captured a lot of customers who later would install and use netscape rather then the preinstalled IE.

I'm not arguing with the fact that it might seem unfair, but why is Microsoft always the brunt of this? Is Safari not force-installed with iTunes? Is apple not then taking advantage of it's practical monopoly in the MP3 player market by doing this?

At what point does the size of a company determine exactly what it is allowed to do or not do in an attempt to oust it's competition? Should the monetary resources behind each company and used with these "war-like" advanced be regulated? No.

people continuously complain about "microsoft this" and microsoft that, all the while they buy and use Microsoft products. The very people that complain about these things are a part of what created this problem.


When Microsoft was a smaller company, and had a deal with IBM to allow IBM to distribute MS-DOS with each new PC, was that not a monopoly on the PC market? The only difference is the market was smaller and competition has sprung up in the meantime. Competition that entered the market knowing full well Microsoft's dominant position. Whining about facts that were essentially common knowledge when the company entered into the same sectors as Microsoft is ridiculous. They decided to enter the same sector. They thought they could compete. But they can't. so they cry "MONOPOLY!"...

Which brings up another interesting analogy.

Microsoft basically has the Blues, Greens, Yellows, Reds, and Orange sets of properties, as well as the railroads. the rest of the board is owned by other companies. Would this break the rules of the game? To own so many properties? No.

because the player came upon these properties fair and square through purchasing and trading...


lastly:


Quote
... how they packaged their product.
Where do you get that idea?
It is about breaking the law.
When a company will lie, cheat, threat and harass, it not about packaging.
And that is so in the USA or anyplace in the civilized world.





when did Microsoft lie?
when did they cheat?
when did they make any threats?
when did they harass?


The fact of the matter is, we, microsoft's customers, want more functionality from the OS. we've wanted that since windows 3.1. in answer to our wants Microsoft decided to have internet explorer included with the OS. But apparently, some great good says this is a No No because poor struggling Browser vendor netscape was barely keeping itself afloat with it's quickly falling apart Browser.

This same BS arguement can be used by Corel since Microsoft included wordpad, Adobe because microsoft included Paint, and who knows how many other programs. The fact that the included program is of less function then the other vendors doesn't matter does it, it's the fact that it's included.


People are trying to get two things at once. Less microsoft and more from windows. without third party licensing as they did with hyperterminal, Microsoft won't be able to deliver on any of these promises because of all this BS crybaby crap that all the other companies are throwing at them. people asked for integrated Virus protection. Microsoft included Windows Defender as a basic malware prevention. And yet this is microsoft "taking advantage of it's monopoly?" No. It's microsoft giving in to consumer demand to try to improve it's image. these Crybaby companies sure as heck aren't making that any easier by whining and complaining about any new program that Microsoft includes.

one day a system tweaker company will cry foul on Control panel. Then what?

"Microsoft Windows 7 - No control panel edition"

sounds farfetch'd? It isn't. At the time MS added the IE browser the internet was quickly coming to the fore. they decided to include the browser. After all- you cannot download netscape without a browser already installed, so it would be extremely stupid not to leave out this basic browser (and guess what, it sure was basic- compared to IE today it's like notepad to word, which further fleshes out my previous analogies to notepad as well).
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2009, 10:27:40 AM »
Here is an example of what can happen if you don't fight for your rights, and in this case your product.

E-Harmony forced to carry gay matches - Isn't much different than the MS lawsuit.

"We have a voice too and we want your company to help us get exposure"

Cry babies!

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2009, 11:19:58 AM »
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when did Microsoft lie?
when did they cheat?
when did they make any threats?
when did they harass?

What planet did you come from? How old are you?

My personal experience. The experience of thousands  of users
The English version of Windows 3.11 was different
 from the Spanish version in one important way. Adm the English version was later 'fixed' with no admission of guilt.

(I only had the English and Spanish versions, I don't know about the other languages. And I bought both of these in the USA, not Europe.)

The English version was a cheat, a threat and a harass. It targeted DR DOS and only DR DOS. I know. I did the tests. They could be and were done by any user who had the original 3.11 version of Windows.. As a direct result,  DR DOS lost the market advantage they had in Europe and finally died. Microsoft killed them with a cheat, a threat and a harass.

And that was very, very well documented. No mistake. It was the Smoking gun. Not a glitch. Not a computability problem. This was, perhaps, the most famous 'malware' of that time frame. A bit of hidden code whose sole purpose was to scare any user that tired to install Windows 3.11 over DR DOS. Only DR DOS. And is was NOT a countability issue. Later MS removed the 'malware' from later issues of 3.11 without any fanfare.
For that trick MS should have been banned from the European Market for several years. Not amount of money could pay for that kind of crime.
It was proof that Microsoft does not believe in free, open, legal, fair and just business practices for all.

It not enough to just defend your own rights, you have to respect the rights of others.

It became apparent that MS had instilled into their people the criminal mind set of the corporation. They got got caught. They were sorry. Sorry they go caught.

Yes, that was a long time ago. Now MS is just a warm fuzzy Grizzly Bear. Let it sit in your lap. Or Laptop.  :-*


patio

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2009, 11:20:03 AM »
I have all 4 Railroads and Boardwalk and Park Place with 3 Hotels each....i'm not worried.
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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »
hahahaha........

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2009, 11:28:27 AM »
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I have all 4 Railroads and Boardwalk and Park Place with 3 Hotels each....i'm not worried.

Nobody wants to play with you anymore!

evilfantasy

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2009, 11:30:33 AM »
Does everyone know that this is the same group (European Commission) who tried to regulate the shape of a banana? Don't believe it? EU to scrap straight banana laws

Now tell me the EU isn't just a bunch of busy bodies....

Probably the same sort who go peeking into neighbors windows and report them for having sex in an immoral fashion.

patio

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2009, 11:31:12 AM »
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Specifically, Mozilla has been granted what's called "interested third party" status in the case, which allows it to submit arguments to the European regulator and access confidential case files.

Kinda simplistic but i believe this is the Mozilla Foundation's only goal...it has nothing to do with piling on MS...
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2009, 11:36:13 AM »
No but I think it's kind of a loop-hole they are exploiting to gain "unfair" insight to MS. When the third party is your competition I don't think that qualifies as being an "interested third party."

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2009, 01:02:16 PM »
I wonder what they would do to banana trees that refused to follow the set ruleset of banana shape... lol


the DR DOS install prevention was 100% valid. Microsoft didn't know exactly how compatible DR DOS was with MS DOS, and they use a lot of obscure MS-DOS functions that may or may not be implemented in DR DOS.


Honestly the whining is pretty much on par with the whining by IBM when Windows 3.11 stopped working under OS/2, with IBM blaming microsoft for the problem, when in fact IBM had hard-coded certain portions of GDI and KERNEL and other system DLLs that they patched in memory when running windows under OS/2. short story is it was IBMs fault since any new version at all would have broken OS/2's functionality in that regard.

Chances are circumstances are similar with DR DOS.

BTW, the "fix" in both instances was to use old versions of GDI, KERNEL, and USER libraries.

In either case- it was MSs perogative. if users didn't like it- they didn't have to use windows. They made the choice to have windows instead of DR DOS installed. Warranted it was a bit sly to do so but thats the way business works.


I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2009, 02:41:56 PM »
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the DR DOS install prevention was 100% valid. Microsoft didn't know exactly how compatible DR DOS was with MS DOS, and they use a lot of obscure MS-DOS functions that may or may not be implemented in DR DOS

Where do you get that? You made it up. You have not read this stuff over. It was before your time. Do some research. M$ did not defend it.

That first build of 3.11 would install on any version of DOS, even one used by your Grandmother. It was back compatible. But not for DR DOS, unless you knew the work around.

The Bogus message was cracked by many users. Unlike other warnings it was hidden from view by any debug tool in general use. (But if you had a good computer Lab you could find it.)  It was a scam. It was only in the first release of 3.11 and MS never ever defended it. Instead the PR made a lame excuse about it was a prank by one of their programmers who was later punished. The prank was never any kind of protection. At first I was thinking that their was some function mismatch.  That was my first reaction until I did some testing. Then I later learned that others studied it and found it to be only a scare tactic. The thing never did any test for functionality.

I could install DR DOS  and then install Windows 3.11 in Spanish and the message would never come up. Because it was not even there. The same chunk of stealth code was not in all later releases of 3.11 but the damage had already been done by a 'prank' from somebody on the MS team. Who believes that MS higher ups did not know about this from the start?

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2009, 03:26:47 PM »
When you go to a GM dealer to buy a car should they have to inform you, in writing,  that Ford has a similar model for a better price?

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2009, 05:21:33 PM »
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When you go to a GM dealer to buy a car should they have to inform you, in writing,  that Ford has a similar model for a better price?

This is not about Cars.  But if M$ was GM, they would start a ad campaign that claims no Ford can be licensed for use on paved roads.



evilfantasy

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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2009, 05:40:50 PM »
Oh OK ??? And Ford, Mozilla, the EU, whoever, can also spend their own money on their own ad campaign and not use the MS brand and funds to do it.


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Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2009, 06:03:59 PM »
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the DR DOS install prevention was 100% valid. Microsoft didn't know exactly how compatible DR DOS was with MS DOS, and they use a lot of obscure MS-DOS functions that may or may not be implemented in DR DOS

Where do you get that? You made it up. You have not read this stuff over. It was before your time. Do some research. M$ did not defend it.


Quote
The message generated if DR DOS was used with Windows 3.1 betas was: "Non-fatal error detected: Error number [varied]


kind of like the error you would get if a MS-DOS function returned a unexpected result. Microsoft just fleshed out the error and placed a warning in the release version. God forbid users actually know what caused the error!

Also of note is that certain switches with HIMEM.SYS and EMM386 with PC-DOS and MS-DOS can cause similar errors, which likely points to DR-DOS XMS memory manager as well.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #20 on: February 14, 2009, 11:57:58 PM »
    Micro$oft's use of FUD tactics to spread and retain their customer base is the stuff of legends.  The company's deliberate and admitted policy of Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish should get them boycotted by all freedom-loving people.


    The most recent threat (and perhaps the most frightening of all) to the freedom-to-use-your-computer-as-you-wish comes from the "Trusted Computing" (TC) initiative, of which Microsoft is a major player.  TC advocates want to make sure that you can only install and use "authorized" products on your new computer's hardware.

    In other words, that means only their products will be usable on future hardware: it's just another way for them to control the market, masquerading as a way to protect computers from malware.  Alternative operating systems like Linux and Mac will go extinct, as will anything open source.  If it isn't made by Microsoft and their lackeys, it won't be "certified", and the installation will be aborted.

    One has to question how long after that will it take before the OS logs and reports your attempt to install "unauthorized software" to the company, and then they retaliate against the "disloyal customer" by remotely deleting your hard drive, hmm?  Probably not long. 

    It's conceivable that the TC companies could lobby or even pressure governments (by refusing to sell them new computers) into enacting laws that forbid the creation or installation of third-party software, at which point not only would the TC giants erase your computer if you try to use a competitor's product, but the police would come to haul you off to jail too!


    Don't think it could happen?  Don't underestimate the greed of those companies; Microsoft in particular...
      

    patio

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #21 on: February 15, 2009, 07:08:18 AM »
    Do they run Windows in Valhalla ? ?

    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #22 on: February 15, 2009, 09:09:03 AM »
    A lot of companies are doing the same type of things.

    Take- of all companies- Nintendo.


    the NES contained a CIC lockout chip which required the cart board to always have a particular chip- the design of which was patented by Nintendo and as such any third-party developers not only needed to get permission from Nintendo to use the chip but Nintendo also required that the chip meet certain "standards"... unfortunately the factories who produced chips that met this standard were few, expensive, and took a long time to ship.

    As an example, Tengen, a third party developer, found itself dissatisfied with Nintendo's licensing policies, which restricted the developers ability to have the game available on other platforms. So- for a while Tengen followed Nintendo's licensing terms, but all the while their engineers were working to create their own replica of the CIC lockout chip so that they could release games on their own, in an attempt to thwart the high prices required by the factories Nintendo deemed suitable as well as eliminate the time barrier from order to arrival of the chip shipment.


    Quote
    On December 12, 1988, armed with a knowledge of the NES security system, Atari sued Nintendo for $100 million, accusing it for practicing a monopoly in video games. They rereleased Pac-Man, R.B.I. Baseball, and Gauntlet in new rounded black cartridges, even though licensed copies were still around. The following month in January they officially broke off their agreement with Nintendo and released a string of titles in the Tengen carts. Tengen manufactured the cartridges themselves and wasn't subject to Nintendo's strict guidelines.

    sound familiar?

    Unfortunately they didn't think ahead on that one; Nintendo hit back hard with a countersuit for breach of contract and copyright infringement- claiming tengen copied the security chip (again, this is similar to the OS industry with the old Apple lawsuit Vs. Microsoft, although hardware based). This started a long series of court battles between the two, with Nintendo itself forcing retailers to either remove all Tengen Products or all Nintendo merchandise. Almost every single outlet complied with this "guerilla" tactic, as Nintendo was a big  name for toys/games back then, and not having Nintendo products would almost surely mean much lower profit margins.

    The end result? while court battles were settled, Tengen was mortally wounded financially, dissapeared when Warner Communications merged with Time Inc to form Time-Warner. The new company consolidated the arcade and home divisions under one common name, Time-Warner Interactive, and the Tengen named ceased to exist.

    And what happened to Nintendo and the lockout chip? Nothing. it remained in the NES, there was one in the SNES and also the N64, forcing developers to jump through Nintendos hoops and licensing barriers to develop games for their consoles. Admittedly, this ensured that Nintendos game library was of (generally) high quality, but at the same time does this not strike an interesting parallel with the way Microsoft has been conducting business?
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    evilfantasy

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #23 on: February 15, 2009, 10:56:07 AM »
    Don't let the words "free" and "open source" intoxicate your brain. I've said it many times. Nothing is truly "free."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation

    In March 2006, Weblogs, Inc. founder Jason Calacanis reported a rumor on his blog that Mozilla Corporation gained $72M during the previous year, mainly thanks to the Google search box in the Firefox browser.[5] The rumor was later addressed by Christopher Blizzard, a member of the Mozilla board, who wrote on his blog that "it’s not correct, though not off by an order of magnitude".[6] "In return for setting Google as the default search engine on Firefox, Google pays Mozilla a substantial sum - in 2006 the total amounted to around $57 million, or 85% of the company’s total revenue. The deal was originally going to expire in 2006, but was later extended to 2008 and will now run through 2011."

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #24 on: February 15, 2009, 11:12:55 AM »
    Interesting...
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #25 on: February 15, 2009, 12:05:55 PM »
    Quote
    Don't let the words "free" and "open source" intoxicate your brain. I've said it many times. Nothing is truly "free."

    Hey, maybe Microsoft will give away Windows 7. But it will only work with IE 8 and it always defaults to MSN search.

    Who will accept such a 'free' gift?

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #26 on: February 15, 2009, 12:14:04 PM »
    January 30, 2009

    Microsoft releases Live Search add-in for Firefox

    Boo evil MS. They have even gone as far to incorporate it's search engine with the competitions browser. Wait, what...? :P

    Quote
    Microsoft reps call it an illustration of the company's efforts for increasing platform interoperability, but you could also say it's another sign that the company's entirely serious about making headway in the search wars: Ladies and gentlemen, a Live Search browser add-in... for Firefox.

    patio

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    Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
    « Reply #27 on: February 15, 2009, 06:29:24 PM »
    I have absolutely no problem with the Mozilla Foundation making money...
    And i could care less what amount it is.

    They are single-handedly responsible for driving the browser improvements to where they are today...no matter what browser you use.
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

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      Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
      « Reply #28 on: February 15, 2009, 06:46:32 PM »
      but wait Mozilla has no say in what Microsoft can and cant do with the operating system

      patio

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      Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
      « Reply #29 on: February 15, 2009, 06:59:17 PM »
      but wait Mozilla has no say in what Microsoft can and cant do with the operating system

      Ever hear of tabbed browsing ? ?
      " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

      evilfantasy

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      Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
      « Reply #30 on: February 15, 2009, 07:10:27 PM »
      I have absolutely no problem with the Mozilla Foundation making money...

      Same here.

      I'm just pissed that I'm not the one who invented Microsoft and became a gabillionare.....

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      Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
      « Reply #31 on: February 15, 2009, 07:12:23 PM »
      Would you like to look like Bill? ;D

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      Re: Mozilla joins Case against Microsoft
      « Reply #32 on: February 15, 2009, 07:13:26 PM »
      Hey if I had that kind of money....