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Author Topic: Voices (VOP) in chat  (Read 7952 times)

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Voices (VOP) in chat
« on: September 09, 2009, 04:15:14 PM »
As many of you have brought to my attention voices have been removed in chat. This was a judgment call done by Lostcost and something at this time I think was done with valid reason (primarily complaints about who has and doesn't have VOP).

I'll take most of the blame on this since I was not available to accept/deny the request of removing VOP since at the time he sent the PM and the few days following that I was dealing with a funeral and really lost focus of chat (he did however ask me before just doing it). This caused a lot of confusion since it wasn't mentioned anywhere why this was done and I think Lostcost was frustrated with the complaints he was receiving about it so didn't handle it perfectly when asked about it.

I appologize for the confusion and hopes this brings some clarity and answers. As always feedback about this or any issues are always welcome.
Everybody is a genius. But, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.
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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 08:22:28 PM »
Hi Nathan,

This will answer everyones question :-)

:-)

Sykes
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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 06:10:30 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up  ;)

Personally I like the Idea of a voice to distinguish the helpers but that is only my oppinion  :P

How about a vote?

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 07:48:44 AM »
I was going to handle this via PM, but I feel the community needs to be aware of what's going on here...and I feel holding back the truth will only continue to leave members in the dark about what actually transpires behind closed doors.

As many of you have brought to my attention voices have been removed in chat. This was a judgment call done by Lostcost and something at this time I think was done with valid reason (primarily complaints about who has and doesn't have VOP).

I find the above statement a bit confusing...since you PMed me and stated the following...and I quote:

I agree what Lostcost did was a bad judgment call but overall I still am holding to my belief that he is a good AOP, just has had some issues.

The reason I find it confusing...is that you state in this thread that there was a valid reason, yet you PM me and tell me a different story.  So which is it?  A valid reason?...or...A bad judgment call?

I'll take most of the blame on this since I was not available to accept/deny the request of removing VOP since at the time he sent the PM and the few days following that I was dealing with a funeral and really lost focus of chat (he did however ask me before just doing it). This caused a lot of confusion since it wasn't mentioned anywhere why this was done and I think Lostcost was frustrated with the complaints he was receiving about it so didn't handle it perfectly when asked about it.

Okay...time for a little history lesson, folks.  I'm sure you're all aware of why all of the OPs were removed from the #computerhope channel.  Nathan has told us that because of all of the conflict between the previous Chat Operators, OPs were removed from chat.  So...why is it, now, that lostcoast is an OP in the channel?  I was under the impression that there would be NO OPs in the channel, anymore.  So, again...I'm confused.

The previous issue you were having with your OPs, was that certain OPs could not follow rules.  They also had a tendency to play around, by banning the bot and/or removing bans that were given by another OP.  This only goes to show the childishness that was running rampant throughout the channel.  Instead of giving OP status to those with common sense...it was given to children...or those with no common sense, whatsoever.  I'll reiterate what I have stated on several different occasions:  What is common sense to a 15 year old...is not the same as the common sense of an individual in their 30s, 40s, or 50s.  Of course, the relationship between age and common sense is not all that it's cracked up to be...since there are those (who are much older) displaying the common sense of a child.  This depends on the individual.  I have dealt with both types.  I'll also be the first to admit I've dealt with one individual, in particular, who is very wise for their age...and has proven it time and time again.  While I've seen individuals, much older, acting like children.

Back to the current issue...

Above you had stated that you were away, so lostcoast made the decision to remove Voice...even though he contacted you about it...and you did not reply.  In my opinion...this only proves my point further.  An OP cannot arbitrarily make a decision until he has contacted the Admin/Owner of the site...and received a response from same.  In this case, he just went ahead and removed Voice.  It wasn't even talked about in chat with other members...it was just done.

The only reason I can think of why this happened...is because lostcoast may have been given express authority (by you, the Administrator) to run chat as he sees fit.  If this is the case, then why weren't the members of your forum/channel notified about this.  Also, why is there now an OP...when you have previously stated that there will be no OPs?  The whole thing just goes to confuse one even further.

Personally...I could care less if one is an OP, or has Voice...it's just a title...but, that's not the point here.  The point is, that rules were/are being made up on the fly...without regard to the Administrator or member.  An OP should only be in the channel to enforce the rules that are currently being implemented within your channel.  You also have a bot...which monitors the channel.  If a user is in the channel to either spam it...or cause trouble, the bot (if properly programmed) can warn, kick, or ban the offender...correct?  OPs are there as an added measure and to make sure the rules are obeyed.

I know nobody's perfect...and I'll agree that your members don't need to know everything that transpires behind closed doors...but when it has a direct impact on the members of a forum community...it needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. If a member needs to know...then they should be made aware of any change on the site that has a direct impact on them.

There are those who thought having Voice distinguished them between those that did help out in the channel/forum by providing support to those who needed it and guests.  Now...that has been taken away from them...without any given notice...just GONE!  I really don't blame those who use the channel for being a little upset about this.  I would...if I cared.  There are also those in the channel now...and prior to all of this happening who had OP status...and let that title go to their heads.  They know who they were and are.

I used to enjoy coming here and helping out whenever and wherever I could, but it has turned into a God awful mess...with no end in sight.  I know I have come and gone on several different occasions, but the above only goes to prove why.  I thought..."Why let it bother me?  Just come back and do what you came here to do."  This time...I'm not quitting...I'm just refusing to participate any more.  Some will say, "You know it's a forum and one has to deal with this type of behavior in a forum community."  No you don't...and you shouldn't have to.  A forum should be where you can come to talk about what is allowed within the forum rules, as well as be a part of it...contributing when and where you can...without someone giving you a hard time...or making fun of you.  It should be a friendly atmosphere with knowledgeable and friendly Staff.

I appologize for the confusion and hopes this brings some clarity and answers. As always feedback about this or any issues are always welcome.

Actually...it hasn't.  You have "flip-flopped" way too much...and for way too long, Nathan.

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2009, 08:12:32 AM »
Since there is obviously no way to fix this without someone being disappointed; Remove the Chat.

There. I just solved all your problems.

The damned thing is causing too many problems.

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2009, 05:24:16 PM »
Quote
The reason I find it confusing...is that you state in this thread that there was a valid reason, yet you PM me and tell me a different story.  So which is it?  A valid reason?...or...A bad judgment call?

Bad judgment call in that he did it without notifying the community. I personally would of took it to the community first before just doing it. However, with the amount of complaining about VOPs I can see now why it was done and believe it was a good decision. If everyone wants to take it to a vote like always we can do that.

Quote
Okay...time for a little history lesson, folks.  I'm sure you're all aware of why all of the OPs were removed from the #computerhope channel.  Nathan has told us that because of all of the conflict between the previous Chat Operators, OPs were removed from chat.  So...why is it, now, that lostcoast is an OP in the channel?  I was under the impression that there would be NO OPs in the channel, anymore.  So, again...I'm confused.

This was done because too many OPs were causing conflicts. I gave lostcost OP rights after this was done because he spends a lot of time in the channel, is now part of the mibbit staff, needed to have at least some OP because people were complaining about things getting out of control and no one being able to do anything with me away, and because overall I think he's been a great contributor.

Quote
Above you had stated that you were away, so lostcoast made the decision to remove Voice...even though he contacted you about it...and you did not reply.  In my opinion...this only proves my point further.  An OP cannot arbitrarily make a decision until he has contacted the Admin/Owner of the site...and received a response from same.  In this case, he just went ahead and removed Voice.  It wasn't even talked about in chat with other members...it was just done.

Disagree, if someone has OP rights I believe they should be capable of making their own judgment calls. I could make an easy example although sure I'll be ridiculed by this simple statement. An OP is going to ban someone before getting permission from the channel owner.

Quote
I used to enjoy coming here and helping out whenever and wherever I could, but it has turned into a God awful mess...with no end in sight.

You continue to say this yet stick around. I know there are issues with Computer Hope but show me a perfect site that's free and primarily maintained by one person. For the problems it has I think Computer Hope is by far still one of the best sites around.

In addition ridiculing a site that is free and requires nothing back from you to me seems really unfortunate and sad in my eyes. Especially everything I've done for you and continue to do for you and the leniency I've showed towards you and your site. I've had easily a dozen complaints from members about your advertising your own site and defended you.

Everybody is a genius. But, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.
-Albert Einstein

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2009, 06:34:50 PM »
I kind of agree, that we should maybe take a vote, besides. I also thought that the voice was a good icon. Here are my reasons:

  • It was a icon to show which ones are/were helpers in the chat.
  • It was also an icon to show what people were often on the site, or in the chat.

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 06:58:57 PM »
Ok. Well it's a valid complaint that was brought up a lot. I'll create a poll for re-initiating this (with set guidelines) it in the next few days after the initial anger wears off to get the overall communities feedback about it.
Everybody is a genius. But, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.
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Mulreay

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 08:31:51 PM »
I think at the time I was more upset because Lostcoast made me a VOP about a week and a half before he took them all off. It was like being offered the cream then someone throwing a glass of milk in your face. At the end of the day it's frustrating but if that's how it has to be and It's Admis site... so be it.

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 11:09:55 PM »
Hello all,

Another hot chat issue  :'(

I do not find a problem in chat room once all Voice is removed. I know some people think that they lost some status in chat channel. let me tell you that Voice is nothing  ;D lol

Remember: now we all are same, if anyone want to help people, they can log-in to chat and help. Please note that everyone lost Voice, so it is good.

I saw,  lostcoast can take a OP position when needed. Which is a good thing Nathan did, because we need a person as an OP here. And the OP should be present maximum number of hours :).  Anyway we do not need 2 OPs here. Hope everyone remember the Ops war.. lol

I was an OP and my OP status was removed (But everyone lost the OP position).

Then I had Voice, now its been removed :) But its all for good. If anyone wish to assist people, they will log-in here regardless of your status in chat room.

Regarding Voting, Nathan needs to decide because he is the Admin and Owner :)

Anyone ready to help people without Voice/OP, log-in to chat and help guys  ;D

Note: if someone does not like lostcoast, they need to be frank, rather than waiting for a chance to screw him  :) lol

Looking for a better tommow

regards

Sykes

Have a good day

My Blog: http://www.tricksguide.com/

Sykes :)

Mulreay

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 11:18:06 PM »
Hello all,

Another hot chat issue  :'(

I do not find a problem in chat room once all Voice is removed. I know some people think that they lost some status in chat channel. let me tell you that Voice is nothing  ;D lol

Remember: now we all are same, if anyone want to help people, they can log-in to chat and help. Please note that everyone lost Voice, so it is good.

I saw,  lostcoast can take a OP position when needed. Which is a good thing Nathan did, because we need a person as an OP here. And the OP should be present maximum number of hours :).  Anyway we do not need 2 OPs here. Hope everyone remember the Ops war.. lol

I was an OP and my OP status was removed (But everyone lost the OP position).

Then I had Voice, now its been removed :) But its all for good. If anyone wish to assist people, they will log-in here regardless of your status in chat room.

Regarding Voting, Nathan needs to decide because he is the Admin and Owner :)

Anyone ready to help people without Voice/OP, log-in to chat and help guys  ;D

Note: if someone does not like lostcoast, they need to be frank, rather than waiting for a chance to screw him  :) lol

Looking for a better tommow

regards

Sykes



Ok lol.. I'm sorry but what you added makes no sense at all.
I treat the CH crew and the nobodies (me) with the upmost respect. You are bringing forward an argument that is dead. So let it die in piece...







Sykes



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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 11:40:21 PM »
Wow!!

I can understand your frustration because you lost Voice.

 ;D

Have a good day

My Blog: http://www.tricksguide.com/

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Re: Voices (VOP) in chat
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 11:37:42 AM »
That seems to be the solution to a lot of things. Don't try to cut out the bruise, throw out the whole potato.

Now, I don't know much about these "op wars" but I do know this: the problem was localized to a few who thought that having op status meant they could do whatever they wanted; kick-banning bots and so forth. it was the fighting between these "I can do what I *censored* well please!" ops and the "what in the blazes are you doing?!!!" ops that constituted the "op wars". Now, as a resolution to this, everybody was stripped of Op status (except of course CH himself and hopebot). Not the best solution, but the most cost-effective (time-wise, of course), and also the least likely to alienate (by making an explicit decision against somebody). OK, that was all cool.

And then, Poof, a op is introduced. OK- now, it makes sense to have one OP, since, as Nathan has said (and as anybody who performs a /Whois on ComputerHope would know) he isn't able to monitor the channel 24/7.
OK, so the single-OP solution makes sense. Cool, that's cool; and as has been said LostCoast being a member of the mibbit staff would appear to make him a safe choice.

However it would appear, that previous tensions and/or altercations have (perhaps) clouded the judgement of those who have stood up and called shenanigans over this minor incident- or perhaps more precisely it's merely their opinion of LostCoast- Now, I have no personal qualms with him and I'm not about to base my entire opinion on some snipped bits of conversation that for all I know were taken out of context; and while those exchanges I have had with him were somewhat low-grit I'm not about to hold that against him personally, and even if I did I wouldn't let my personal feelings get in the way of how I think he can handle the task.

The thing is, I doubt the mibbit staff just said, "well, we need somebody, let's pick some random person", no- I'm sure there was consideration on their part, and, considering it was a position with the staff of the entire IRC server, it stands to reason that such consideration is not taken lightly, and surely is more thorough then that which might be done for a "mere" channel op. And to think that such consideration was rushed and or rigged just based on personal opinion of a person is simply prejudicial and also a bit self-important of ones owns opinions.

As such Nathan not only used his own judgement but also that of the Mibbit IRC operators to make his decision, which was good.

Honestly the only thing that I see as a problem was simply not being informed ahead of time- the rest is just personal vendetta crap or digging up dirt that is really redundant. All this claims of "dictatorships" and fascism is just so much hyperbole it's simply breathtaking. If I may coin a phrase- "a friend who steps on your foot means a sore foot and a good natured push. a Enemy who steps on your foot means war".

Now given this may not reflect the entire dynamics of the situation, as I have already admitted I do not have all the various facts about what transpired, but I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that when something so simple as an oversight to inform users about a new OP becomes a mud-slinging session that there is some sort of background that might be clouding the judgement of those involved and or perhaps personal feelings about this new OP are getting in the way of actually assessing their abilities to perform their assigned task.
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