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Author Topic: Want XP instead of Win 7  (Read 11617 times)

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BC_Programmer


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Re: Want XP instead of Win 7
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2010, 05:52:12 AM »
I think protection of the OS is a big issue in today's security environment. Coming from the early days of computer where you were the master of your OS and hard drive, I first resented all the permissions problems, but since everyone else on the net wants to be master of my computer, I see that XP is more vulnerable.

Yeah, I think a lot of people think of it like "protecting the user from themselves" like for changing settings; in fact it is protecting the user from, as you say, other programs and malware that wants to take control of the system.

Actually, Linux has been a strong proponent of the same thing Vista is only introducing now; basically, you don't run the desktop as root (heck, you try to avoid running anything as root if you can get away with it) of course the Linux and Windows markets are are far different demographic and will be until the developers behind linux start adding serious features rather then making things they think might be fun to implement.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: Want XP instead of Win 7
    « Reply #31 on: January 19, 2010, 06:01:20 AM »
    Right. I've explored migration to Linux and find it still a long way from being a serious end-user tool in spite of it's dominance in professional IT work.

    Linux also touts itself as malware resistant, but I can't help but wonder on all the recent press on malware attacks on commercial and government systems which are bound to be a high percentage of Linux based networks.

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Want XP instead of Win 7
    « Reply #32 on: January 19, 2010, 06:10:53 AM »
    Linux also touts itself as malware resistant, but I can't help but wonder on all the recent press on malware attacks on commercial and government systems which are bound to be a high percentage of Linux based networks.

    With Vista I'd say they are on a pretty even tier malware wise, excepting that there is far more malware created for Windows solely because the idea of malware is basically to infect as many machines as possible.

    Many Linux lovers who bash windows complain that UAC is the same as something on Linux called "graphical Sudo" of course, they forget the mention which of the kazillion distributions each of which can use one of around 10 or 20 different desktop environments Microsoft copied from. Not to mention that before Vista these same Linux heads were complaining that XP by default ran everybody as admin; now MS fixes that and they still complain.

    Same goes for compatibility; with XP, they worked harder on making sure win9x programs and even 3.1 apps ran alright; in fact, they patched around issues with popular programs, just to get them working. Since if you upgraded from win98 to XP and suddenly your word processor or something didn't work, you would blame the OS, not the crappy programmers of the word processor. This was essentially the "bloat" that people were complaining about for so long; so they pretty much removed all that for Vista, and people still complain.

    Yes, Vista installs are going to be bigger then XP installs. IS this surprising? Should we all call XP and win98 and win95 bloated because we can compare them to the 15MB it takes to install windows 3.1? Not really. I mentioned before that the actual "cost" of the space being used by Vista or 7 on a modern PC as opposed to to the cost of space on an older PC was less; we now have more disk space and it costs less then it did, and the OS install takes up a smaller fraction of a less expensive disk.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    jkolak



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      Re: Want XP instead of Win 7
      « Reply #33 on: January 19, 2010, 08:13:14 AM »
      All good points. I certainly don't want to return the (dis)favor and bash Linux - I can certainly respect anyone with the determination to master a complex OS just as being an OS operator has taught me to respect the intelligence and higher education of computer engineers, and being a successful home mechanic has taught me to respect the same in automotive engineers.

      And being on a budget, a free OS was certainly appealing - And with the Mac-like talk of Windows malware being a good reason to switch, I certainly considered it. I certainly have tried many times over the years. I bought Linux for Dummies around 1998 or so, but couldn't see learning new terms for the things I had already learned in DOS. I came into computers in 1984 and caught the tail end of DOS and the beginning of WIMP and started the latter with an Atari ST, called "Jackintosh" (after Jack Tramiel) since it was seen as an improvement over the Mac of 1985. OS on a ROM chip seemed like heaven at the time for user-friendliness. But you didn't learn till later that the rest of the OS was left out, and when GDOS came out it had to be loaded on the hard drive, and by the time all the boot-time utilities came out, it was just as hair-pulling as Windows on DOS, especially when the net got started and you had to write all the networking protocol scripts manually.

      After taking a good look at Linux and thinking M$ was getting too much of my budget, I had to admit that the thing about Windows is that 99% of the time, things just work without having to be a guru. In Linux when something didn't work, I submitted a bug report. Then someone from customer service would email me and ask if I had installed the flash plugin, and another if I had installed the mp4 codec. In Windows, if you are missing something, it will usually tell you and ask if you want to install it. So I suppose M$ deserves their compensation for bringing this degree of usability to the masses - yet as the help boards on this site show, computers of any kind are still a long way from being a true consumer appliance like a dishwasher or television.

      My personality is split between the need for an appliance that doesn't need attention, that I can operate without getting under the hood and do my tasks without distraction on the one side, and then the closet geek side of me wants to dig in and understand all of this. All of these thoughts are beginning to gel in my mind in a firm direction, and I am set to commit to Win7 on all machines. Exploring Linux and back-support for XP are going to be in VirtualBox. So there I am....

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Want XP instead of Win 7
      « Reply #34 on: January 19, 2010, 09:20:13 AM »
      I like to explore different Operating Systems as well, but I always seem to encounter issues installing linux on my older machines (to be fair I also have issues with most versions of windows on them too; I just am not very good with Linux, at least not quite enough to know all the ins and outs of the various commands.

      Back in the DOS days when CLI was the main interface and the real debate was really between Command.com and the various Linux shells, one thing that was hotly debated by the geeks on both sides was nearly a exercise in triviality; the way that wildcards were expanded.

      Most linux shells expanded, for example, * to be all files in a directory <before> it passed it to a program; so the program would never actually see any wildcards at all. This had a benefit in that the program only had to handle lists of filenames, and not actually parse wildcards.

      However, the problem with this is that the program cannot really know when a wildcard was used; when you use, for example, del *.* on DOS, you get a warning (well, actually, that wasn't until DOS 5, IIRC) but with most linux shells, rm * gave no warning and deleted everything.

      Now, of course, this isn't really a bad thing in and of itself; just be sure of what your doing. the problem is that many seemingly minor typos in commands can cause an errant * to get into a destructive command, and POOF! the files are gone.

      Either way, it was extremely trivial and certainly not debated by the masses, just the hardcore nerds, and it was really not something that could be won for one side; they both had their strengths; Linux is mostly for the programmer, so making the creation of C programs easier is a pretty easy choice.

      Ubuntu and it's various desktop variants (Ubuntu itself uses GNOME; Kubuntu uses KDE, and there are a few others) are excellent operating Systems and would be even if they were near the price point of windows itself; the fact that it's free is just a great bonus. But when speaking of Linux, one cannot forget that Ubuntu isn't the only one; there are a lot of distros, and honestly I think this is the greatest weakness. It's hard to really know exactly what a distro is without a good explanation; heck, even I'm not 100% on the differences, like wether they are really different operating systems or wether they can run a number of different programs, etc. Seems like it's more or less a choice of what kernel, desktop environment, and what programs are included, rather then anything that would be seriously different amongst them; once you get past that, it really just boils down to ease of install; most distro's have a super-easy installer wizard.

      All good points. I certainly don't want to return the (dis)favor and bash Linux - I can certainly respect anyone with the determination to master a complex OS just as being an OS operator has taught me to respect the intelligence and higher education of computer engineers, and being a successful home mechanic has taught me to respect the same in automotive engineers.

      Yes, this hits upon an important point; while lots of Linux evangelists, open source zealots and so forth seem to think that the open source route is best for everyone, that really is painting everybody with the same brush; not everybody finds editing config files with vi to get their display driver working as an effective use of their time; It certainly can be rewarding, but when all you want to do is get something done it's in the way. Basically; not every enjoys the whole configuration venture; many people just want to use their computer to write their reports for their job. And honestly, the Linux devs are catching onto this, and I think they are certainly trying (well, some of them, there are still those that go "wouldn't it be cool if" and then go on to describe an essentially useless feature). Many distros are certainly hitting the "no need to be a expert" level of usability. they still have a way to go, though. Not that windows is perfect in this regard.

      It's really a function of complexity; sure, MS-DOS isn't really user friendly, but it had pretty easy to understand syntax, rules, and so forth. Windows at first was just an additional level of complexity on top of that, and things kind of snowballed from there; Sure it's pretty easy to use; which is the point. but the learning curve from being a run of the mill user to being "in control" and knowing what's going on is far steeper in windows then DOS.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      jkolak



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        Re: Want XP instead of Win 7
        « Reply #35 on: January 19, 2010, 10:28:33 AM »
        When I was doing my recent research, I stumbled across The UNIX-HATERS Handbook. Skimming through it I saw a lot of the kinds of things you are talking about. Wikipedia says the book is semi-humorous. Some of the complaints seem quite legitimate, and others seem extremist, and others more clearly tongue-in-cheek.

        I read a review, too, that said that Linux needs more consolidation before it can make more inroads into the masses. While Linux freedom is nice, like democracy, too much freedom is anarchy. I tried to take some cues from Linux users on the distros and ended up with Ubuntu on one of my drives. Successfully loading to a desktop is a serious issue because of the ones I have tried, only it and Freespire will do that, and, again, the issue is not important enough for me to get it running if it doesn't install right on the first shot. If it was mission critical and my life depended on it, that would be a different story. So I have a collection of CDs laying around from different distros that didn't work out.

        This one got me thinking:

        Quote
        It's really a function of complexity; sure, MS-DOS isn't really user friendly, but it had pretty easy to understand syntax, rules, and so forth. Windows at first was just an additional level of complexity on top of that, and things kind of snowballed from there; Sure it's pretty easy to use; which is the point. but the learning curve from being a run of the mill user to being "in control" and knowing what's going on is far steeper in windows then DOS.

        I realized that you are really right. In the name of user friendliness, we have ended up with quite a complex piece of technology! Well, it would be an easy way to run a computer if the under-the-hood stuff worked right all the time and didn't send beginners over here looking for help. The other factor is that Windows today is a feature-rich set of complex technology, so that even if things always work right, there are a multitude of places to explore and find things you are trying to do. It's like the complexity of modern word processors. When I first learned how to use one, I was in heaven just being able to cut and paste to save on excessive retyping. Bold, italic, underline and all that were icing on the cake. And I really thought I had it made when Word Perfect 4 came out with automatic indexing. I thought I'm going to keep this program around for when I write my books. Well, I haven't written any books yet, and besides not having that copy of Word Perfect anymore, it won't run on any of my current computers!