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lonar23

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    Greenhorn

    down grade windows 7 towindows XP
    « on: January 21, 2010, 09:36:17 AM »
    i have dell vostro 1015  laptop  with widows 7 os, recently i'd tried to downgrade it to XP but it didn't success

    my system appears blue screen and says i need to check my system for viruses and run chkdsk but i almost done it for so many times with no viruses found and all my hardware works properly but still no progress it also shows a code like this  0x0000007B (0Xf78D2524, 0X00000034, 0X00000000, 0X00000000)

    i cant also format my disk..

    anyone can help here..?
     
    i just need convenient step to someone already experience this problem...

    patio

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    Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
    « Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 09:40:49 AM »
    Did you DLoad and install XP drivers for this machine after the install ? ?

    Does the same thing happen in safemode ? ?
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    flipflopjd



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      Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
      « Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 10:41:07 AM »
      Why down grade ???windows 7 is far better. ;)

      killerb255



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        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
        « Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 11:01:55 AM »
        Not sure why you'd want to downgrade.  If there's a real reason to have XP, use XP Mode (yes, I know it's an updated VirtualPC, and other virtual products like VMWare and VirtualBox are better, but still...the free license doesn't hurt).

        However, if you absolutely insist on having XP as your main OS, then one thing you need to check for in your BIOS is whether SATA operation is set to AHCI.  Vista and 7 have native AHCI drivers--XP does not.

        If it is set to AHCI, then XP will blue-screen with 0x7B (INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE) without either:
        a) Switching that to ATA or IDE mode (or whatever it's called in your particular BIOS)
        b) Slipstreaming the AHCI drivers into your XP installation
        c) Copying the drivers to a floppy disk (yes, a floppy disk), and press F6 when asked to "Press F6 to install a third-party SCSI or RAID driver." 

        Hassle-free choice: a). :)
        Quote from: talontromper
        Part of the problem is most people don't generally deal with computer problems. So for most they think that close enough is good enough.

        patio

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        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
        « Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 11:07:48 AM »
        Why down grade ???windows 7 is far better. ;)

        Some people just prefer XP...
        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

        jkolak



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          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
          « Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 11:17:14 AM »
          Some people just prefer XP...

          This is a big issue in the news, probably more so before the Win7 launch than now.

          It's mostly because Vista was such a rough ride that people lost their trust in Microsoft and feared that Win7 was just more of Vista.

          The outcry was that XP has been working so well for so long that they didn't want to mess with what worked. Due to this pressure Microsoft agreed to an extension to the XP product life.

          Now that Win7 is out, people have started to realize that it is the best Windows that Microsoft has ever released, and certainly the best since XP.

          That having been said, XP is getting long in the tooth and as hardware and software march forward, you can't stand still with the OS and expect there not to be any problems. XP was THE OS to have in 2003. Unfortunately, not in 2010.

          patio

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          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
          « Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 11:33:11 AM »
          My contention is we are here to assist with what the OP wants to do...not question his choices in the matter.
          " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

          Allan

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          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
          « Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 11:39:12 AM »
          My contention is we are here to assist with what the OP wants to do...not question his choices in the matter.
          +1

          lonar23

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            Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
            « Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 11:48:25 AM »
            hello killerb255 i'd swith AHCI to ATA but i dont have Floopy disc drive in my laptop do we have any other options aside from it? although my installation to XP has a progress when i switched it but their is another problem i ecounter my installation do not continue it says like this

            Setup cannot create the folder:

            \WINDOWS.0\System32\Spool\prtprocs\w32X86

            Setup cannot continue until the folder is created.

            - to retry, press ENTER

            - To quit setup, press F3

            i'd press enter but still there and when i press quit the set-up will b failed...


            so do we have another chance left?


            thnks to all replies

            jkolak



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              Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
              « Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 11:51:31 AM »
              My contention is we are here to assist with what the OP wants to do...not question his choices in the matter.

              I agree. My bad. A help thread is not the right place to have an academic discussion. The OP is only here because a decision had been previously made, and he is here for technical assistance or repair options.

              BC_Programmer


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              Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
              « Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 11:58:05 AM »
              My contention is we are here to assist with what the OP wants to do...not question his choices in the matter.

              Agree. This is similar to when somebody asks in the apple forum "what mac should I buy" and there is literally a <FLOOD> of replies that basically say "macs SUXOR Use a PC LOL" and it's simply ridiculous.


              Quote
              That having been said, XP is getting long in the tooth and as hardware and software march forward, you can't stand still with the OS and expect there not to be any problems. XP was THE OS to have in 2003. Unfortunately, not in 2010.
              The age of an OS, or the age of any software, for that matter, is irrelevant to it's usefulness. Many businesses still use DOS based database management systems; It works, it's familar to them, and there is no reason to use something else.

              I learned a long time ago that the "current thang" is always yesterdays thang tommorrow, so it's really just a waste of time to bother upgrading just for the sake of upgrading.

              An Operating System is something that a user will have to use everyday. Therefore it should be their choice.

              Personally, for example, I could easily upgrade to Windows 7; and it would probably work fine. but I don't. Vista is working fine for me; and that brings me to another point:

              Quote

              Now that Win7 is out, people have started to realize that it is the best Windows that Microsoft has ever released, and certainly the best since XP.

              certainly? Sounds more like an opinion stated as fact. Really, the differences between windows 7 and Vista are so tiny it's almost comedic how different people paint the two. People skip straight over Vista to 7 and then proclaim how much better 7 is then Vista, despite never having even used Vista. I believe it was Patio who stated at some point previously the real reason that windows 7 is so much more successful: the public beta. I personally believe that is in fact the only reason. It's just another version of windows. it's not some kind of super ultra mega awesome OS that toasts your bread and butters it for you that some people paint it as; heck, the differences between Windows 7 and Vista are probably less then half the number of differences between XP and 2000, and people still painted XP as a steaming turd just as they painted Vista after it. It was the windows 7 beta program that reversed everybody's idea; the mass publicity; the exposure, etc. It has nothing to do with anything they "fixed".



              Now, then, returning at last to the actual Topic: STOP code 0x7B in this case probably is caused by what other have touched on; the PC has a SATA hard drive. Killerb255 has excellently pointed out several ways of getting the drive to work with XP; Personally, I just switch the SATA mode from AHCI to "compatible" or "IDE". No need to finagle with drivers or floppies or slipstreaming.


              hello killerb255 i'd swith AHCI to ATA but i dont have Floopy disc drive in my laptop do we have any other options aside from it? although my installation to XP has a progress when i switched it but their is another problem i ecounter my installation do not continue it says like this

              Setup cannot create the folder:

              \WINDOWS.0\System32\Spool\prtprocs\w32X86

              Setup cannot continue until the folder is created.

              - to retry, press ENTER

              - To quit setup, press F3

              i'd press enter but still there and when i press quit the set-up will b failed...


              so do we have another chance left?


              thnks to all replies

              Looks like you've performed an installation already (windows.0); after switching from AHCI in the BIOS was the XP disc able to boot and format your drive? remember you have to boot from the disc to install; you cannot install XP over top of Windows 7 from within windows.

              I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

              killerb255



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                Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                « Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 09:08:25 PM »
                hello killerb255 i'd swith AHCI to ATA but i dont have Floopy disc drive in my laptop do we have any other options aside from it?

                In my last post, I meant either a), b), OR c), not a), b) AND c)!

                If you switch AHCI to ATA, you do NOT have to have a floppy disk or slipstream any drivers.

                Quote
                although my installation to XP has a progress when i switched it but their is another problem i ecounter my installation do not continue it says like this

                Setup cannot create the folder:

                \WINDOWS.0\System32\Spool\prtprocs\w32X86

                It is never a good idea to install one version of Windows on top of another.  When you do, another "Windows" directory gets created (unless you're going from or to, say NT or 2000, but that's another story altogether), and you have a big flippin' mess on your hands.

                You should have backed up all your important data (if any), wiped the entire drive clean, and installed XP from scratch.

                Never install two Windows installations on the same PC unless you either (and this is OR, not AND):
                a) Split your hard drive into two partitions, install the oldest version of Windows on the first partition, and then the newest version on the second partition.  You'll get a menu after startup asking you which version of Windows you want to boot into.
                b) Use two physical drives, installing the oldest version of Windows on the first drive and then the newest version on the second drive.  Again, you'll get a menu after startup asking you which version of Windows you want to boot into.
                c) Install the oldest version of Windows, and then perform an upgrade install to a newer version (as long as you meet the requirements for an upgrade-install and you're willing to deal with the risks as well as the benefits in doing so).
                d) Install Windows, have a major problem, and have to perform a repair-install (like an upgrade install, this also carries risks, especially if your computer is multiple Service Packs and versions of Internet Explorer ahead of your install disc).
                e) Install one version of Windows (actually, Mac, Linux, or BSD would work for this as well), install virtual machine software, and install one or more versions of Windows on virtual machines (i.e.: Installing Windows 7, and then downloading/installing the XP Mode components). 
                f) ...don't mind the messiness of having multiple \WINDOWS directories and having to live with or clean up the mess (some programs mind this...a lot)


                Quote from: talontromper
                Part of the problem is most people don't generally deal with computer problems. So for most they think that close enough is good enough.

                killerb255



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                  Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                  « Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 09:10:16 PM »
                  My contention is we are here to assist with what the OP wants to do...not question his choices in the matter.

                  Discouraging his choice if it doesn't sound like a good idea is fine, as long as you're willing to offer him options should he pursue the choice anyway.
                  Quote from: talontromper
                  Part of the problem is most people don't generally deal with computer problems. So for most they think that close enough is good enough.

                  lonar23

                    Topic Starter


                    Greenhorn

                    Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                    « Reply #13 on: January 23, 2010, 05:39:46 PM »
                    to killerb255  i huv succesfully downgrade my laptop from win 7 to xp...
                    and i got from u

                    thank you..more power.. :) :)

                    groovybluedog



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                      Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                      « Reply #14 on: January 24, 2010, 02:31:36 AM »
                      Why down grade ???windows 7 is far better. ;)

                      I am not baised, As i have used both, But in MY opinion, Its allways XP. The classic design, The less RAM usage, and Compatability.

                      Im still looking for drivers to run XP on this stupid sata hard drive, So i have to stick with windows 7.

                      I will go back to windows 7 maybe a year later, when more games and software become compatable - Half the stuff i have only runs on XP, ANd i am not moving back to vista!

                      jkolak



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                        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                        « Reply #15 on: January 24, 2010, 06:04:23 AM »
                        But in MY opinion, Its allways XP. The classic design.

                        People are comfortable with the familiar. I have feelings about leaving behind what I have learned well and moving forward to face things I am not familiar with.

                        Quote
                        Im still looking for drivers to run XP on this stupid sata hard drive, So i have to stick with windows 7.

                        You can run SATA on XP. Download them with the other computer.

                        Quote
                        I will go back to windows 7 maybe a year later, when more games and software become compatable - Half the stuff i have only runs on XP

                        The software you have now that doesn't run on Vista/7 will be updated to a new paid upgrade version or be abandoned by their developers. Vista/7 will never become more compatible with old, incompatible software. XP mode on 7 is the most Microsoft will offer you.

                        Quote
                        i am not moving back to vista!

                        Timeline is XP -> Vista -> 7

                        I suppose you are talking about your personal timeline.

                        BC_Programmer


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                        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                        « Reply #16 on: January 24, 2010, 06:57:40 AM »
                        Programs that work on XP but not on Vista or 7 are the fault of sloppy programmers, not the OS.
                        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                        Pat B



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                          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                          « Reply #17 on: January 30, 2010, 01:44:01 PM »
                          Along the same line here of down grading .I could use some help .I have a  computer with windows XP media center edition installed.I did do not have a restore disk nor a restore starting point.There is nothing on the system ,files ,etc that need saved. I am trying to just clean up the hard drive as I believe there to be some corruption. I have a store purchased  "upgrade...... new install" XP home edition disk.I wanted to try to do an install over the one in the computer which will not work.I have checked for restore disks but have only found home versions  so far.
                          Is there some way to get this disk I have here to work?I thought about trying to  delete the hard drive and start from scratch.What recommendations do you have?
                          Please keep it simple on replies I am not the most literate on computer jargon.Thanks.

                          killerb255



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                            Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                            « Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 10:06:30 PM »
                            In a nutshell, you can't "upgrade" from XP Media Center Edition to XP Home Edition. 

                            Technically, Media Center Edition is considered the "upgrade" and Home Edition the "downgrade." 

                            Professional - ability to join a corporate domain + Media Center components = Media Center Edition.

                            So, in your case, you need to do the following:

                            1) Back up your data on your hard drive (unless, for some reason, you don't mind losing it all).
                            2) Put the XP Home Edition CD in the CD-ROM drive.
                            3) Restart your computer.
                            either
                            4a) Depending on the make and model of your computer, press Delete or one of the "F" keys (F1, F2, F3, etc.) to get into your computer's BIOS.  Change the boot device priority to CD-ROM first.
                            or
                            4b) Depending on the make and model of your computer, press one of the "F" keys to choose the boot device without going into the BIOS.  Select the CD-ROM.
                            5) Wait through the blue screen until you're asked to press Enter to install Windows XP. 
                            6) POINT OF NO RETURN!  MAKE SURE YOU'VE BACKED UP YOUR DATA OR DON'T GIVE A HOOT ABOUT IT! Press "D" to delete the partition on your hard drive.  Press "Enter" to confirm.  Press "L" to finally say good-bye to all your data.
                            7) Press Enter to install Windows XP.
                            8) Select "Format using the NTFS file system"

                            The rest is pretty much self-explanatory.
                            Quote from: talontromper
                            Part of the problem is most people don't generally deal with computer problems. So for most they think that close enough is good enough.

                            Pat B



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                              Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                              « Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 08:41:24 PM »
                              Still procrastinating how to proceed. ::)

                              patio

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                              Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                              « Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 06:09:41 AM »
                              It's best to start your own Topic as to not confuse things...
                              " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

                              Hankster58



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                                Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                « Reply #21 on: February 02, 2010, 05:48:40 PM »
                                I'm no "expert" to be sure, But I do know a thing or two of business and marketing.... and MS is guilty on more than one occasion of rushing product to market for profit, rather than because it's superior, OR perfected!!! No one can write a "perfect" anything first time up.... so of course "patches" etc will be necessary... but even the worshiped "XP" had 2 "Service packs" (how many megabytes of FIXES??) to correct screw ups in code writing and "security errors".... Not trying to pick a fight or anything, actually I'm with you guys... I LIKED XP!!! But since the great MS is abandoning it with no more updates fixes etc.... using it leaves one behind in light of "new" programs etc..... it sucks but it's fact. One of my pet beefs was WHY can't MS just take XP and develop it to DEATH!!! Make it super bomb proof etc..... Why not?? Because then they can't make gazillions of dollars selling the new "latest and greatest" program!! I'd rather have seen that (one system super bombproof) approach, then develop super programs you "can't live without" for it!!! XP had potential.... but the advent of 64 bit and other advances left it lacking... THEN there are "reasons" for progress.... Vista was rushed to market... with less than stellar results!! Now, "7" is what Vista SHOULD have been!! Take away the altered desktop (the one that looks a lot like a MAC!) and flash, and you it seems have Vista "fixed"...... all Vista stuff runs on it etc.. so really what else can you call it???? I just hope it lives up to the hype this time...... even tho i liked "Vista" too.. i've had "too much fun" dealing with it to want to hang on to it...... you computer heads and geeks who like a challenge might get a kick out of fixing odd crashes and errors...and god bless you for it!! but... those of us who need it to work like clockwork day in and out DON'T!! THAT my friends is where you get the two differing views on the subject..... Thanks for letting me rant and say my piece!!! I feel better now!!
                                Now if you are wondering why this guy is so hardcore on this subject....I just quit my job today, to take on a different one, online news.... and if this computer doesn't run, I don't work/eat!! So YES i'm picky!!!! LOL!! Hank out.......

                                BC_Programmer


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                                Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                « Reply #22 on: February 02, 2010, 07:12:32 PM »
                                I know you were just venting for the most part hankster58 but I feel like doing some venting as well :)


                                I'm no "expert" to be sure, But I do know a thing or two of business and marketing.... and MS is guilty on more than one occasion of rushing product to market for profit, rather than because it's superior, OR perfected!!!
                                Almost every single Windows release has been delayed by nearly a year from when MS originally intended to release it. Not sure how delaying for a year constitutes "rushing" when the OS had been in development for nearly 5 years before that.

                                Quote
                                No one can write a "perfect" anything first time up.... so of course "patches" etc will be necessary... but even the worshiped "XP" had 2 "Service packs" (how many megabytes of FIXES??) to correct screw ups in code writing and "security errors"
                                Apple, and Linux Distros are no different. Additionally most security vulnerabilities are really far less compromising then one would think. And of course we have people reporting "security vulnerabilities" that really aren't vulnerabilities, or in many cases people ask for vulnerabilities as features.

                                And of course, when it comes to IE, many web designers and sites actually rely on security vulnerabilities, as stupid as that sounds.

                                Quote
                                But since the great MS is abandoning it with no more updates fixes etc
                                What are they supposed to do? keep distributing updates until nobody anywhere is using the OS? And if that's the case, why don't they still release versions of MS-DOS?

                                Quote
                                .... using it leaves one behind in light of "new" programs etc..... it sucks but it's fact. One of my pet beefs was WHY can't MS just take XP and develop it to DEATH!!! Make it super bomb proof etc..... Why not??  Because then they can't make gazillions of dollars selling the new "latest and greatest" program!!

                                Microsoft is a company. What your suggesting is they completely forget about the fact that they need a revenue stream to stay afloat, and simply invest all their  time in recreating Vista again simply as a patch for XP. Vista is from the SAME codebase as XP and therefore would be what they created as the "super bomb proof" XP. people asked for better security, MS gave us UAC, and of course everybody complained about that because MS can't do a *censored* thing right, can they. Nope.

                                Quote
                                then develop super programs you "can't live without" for it!!!

                                Lost me here.

                                Quote
                                XP had potential.... but the advent of 64 bit and other advances left it lacking...

                                Not counting Windows XP 64-bit edition. But then again, you know what, the advent of 32-bit and other advances left windows 3.1 lacking as well.

                                Quote
                                THEN there are "reasons" for progress.... Vista was rushed to market... with less than stellar results!! Now, "7" is what Vista SHOULD have been!!

                                Actually, Windows 7 is Windows Vista with the "annoyances" that everybody complains about changed, and a few UI enhancements here and there. The funny thing is a lot of the changes are really just different default options. For example, people that complained about UAC could easily turn it off, but they inastead choose to whine and complain about how "every second move" they make with Vista brings up the prompt. The fact is if "every second move" you make with Vista brings up that prompt you might want to get out of device manager and start doing something useful.

                                Quote
                                Take away the altered desktop (the one that looks a lot like a MAC!)
                                ahh yes, can't have a good Anti-MS rant without getting in the old "MS steals from Apple" idea. There are far too many reasons such claims are completely ludicrous. I suppose Microsoft was supposed to use a completely differnet paradigm, paybe one where you don't use an easy to use mouse device, because god forbid they use the same obvious and simple concept as apple, because that would be stealing, much in the same way as WALKING like everybody else is stealking their moves, but no, instead they should have gone with a "press your nose against this cold piece of steal to move the mouse" the nose UI. and they couldn't possibly use small windows on the screen, small viewports for information, because god forbid they once again take a standard, well established metaphor (if you think Apple was the first to think of the whole "windowed UI" concept then I'm afraid you'll have to look at Xerox instead). No, instead they should have had small circular information spheres appear out of a large, not desktop, because remember, Apple already used that metaphor! and although super obvious and easily implemented metaphors that any braindead doofus can think up aren't exactly intellectual property they cannot possibly use that! instead they will appear out of a large nose image. each nosehair will represent a single Application.

                                yeah, I'm sure THAT version of Microsoft Noses would be a lot better recieved then Windows was. Oh hey, you know what, I cannot BELIEVE that Microsoft had the Gall to copy the Commandline interface! I mean, really, it's once again the simplest and easiest way to implement it and in no way are most of the features or various subroutines present even barely similar to those present in CPM or UNIX but god *censored* why can't they stop stealing ideas!




                                Quote
                                and you it seems have Vista "fixed"...... all Vista stuff runs on it etc..

                                You can run the NT4 shell Explorer.exe in Windows NT 3.51, but that doesn't make it Windows NT 4.

                                Quote
                                you computer heads and geeks who like a challenge might get a kick out of fixing odd crashes and errors

                                Not really. I think in the entire time I've used Vista and 7 I've had a single bluescreen. after thee months consecutive uptime, no less. That compared to the fact that whenever I wanted to play a MIDI on my XP system I had to make bloody sure it wasn't using the hardware synth or else the first percussion sound would greet me with a Blue screen.

                                Quote
                                those of us who need it to work like clockwork day in and out DON'T!! THAT my friends is where you get the two differing views on the subject.....
                                Your assuming that just because we help people diagnose issues with their PCs we actually enjoy the experience when it comes to our own? That's utter nonsense. I don't think I've ever gotten a Blue screen, and jumped out of my chair with the impending 5 hour trek I would take diagnosing what went wrong and how to fix it, So I'll have to call you out on that one.

                                Quote
                                Thanks for letting me rant and say my piece!!! I feel better now!!

                                I must offer the same thanks, lol.
                                Quote
                                Now if you are wondering why this guy is so hardcore on this subject....I just quit my job today, to take on a different one, online news.... and if this computer doesn't run, I don't work/eat!! So YES i'm picky!!!! LOL!! Hank out.......

                                you better make sure it works then ;)
                                I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                Hankster58



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                                  Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                  « Reply #23 on: February 02, 2010, 09:50:33 PM »
                                  *censored* you're worse than ME!! LOL!!  You WORK for them or something?? LOL!! I'm not anti MS.... just would like to see them slow down, get it right, give us good stuff...don't think that's too much to ask for. AS to my comment "programs we can't live without" whats not to get??? Write a new "Word" or whatever, so cool, so easy, so chock full of USEFUL stuff without the fluff. .. and we'd buy it!! Upgrade for upgrades sake is crap... upgrade because it's SUPERIOR..... now THATS another story!!

                                  BC_Programmer


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                                  Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                  « Reply #24 on: February 02, 2010, 11:08:28 PM »
                                  just would like to see them slow down, get it right, give us good stuff...don't think that's too much to ask for.
                                  Well, the problem is everybody's definition of "right" is different in this case. People say Vista, Windows, etc, is plagued with bugs, and yet they can hardly name a single one.



                                  Quote
                                  AS to my comment "programs we can't live without" whats not to get??? Write a new "Word" or whatever, so cool, so easy, so chock full of USEFUL stuff without the fluff. .. and we'd buy it!!
                                  I'm still not quite sure what you mean... Programs we cannot live without? do you mean, like, they should write more "killer apps"? like how back in the day Excel was a killer app and completely obliterated Lotus 1-2-3; or how word smashed Wordperfect? Basically, Office has been pretty well unchanged for quite some time; for the main reason that they really can't add anything that the average person will even come close to needing. (In fact, I'd go so far as to say this has been the case, at least for word, since version 6. And as a matter of fact; if you think about it, when you think about word processing on a windows PC Microsoft Word is one of the first programs you consider; Of course, nearly any text editing that the average person will do can easily be done in Wordpad, so really Word isn't all that necessary.

                                  Now Excel, this can be a different story; it's a spreadsheet, but most people use it for keeping track of lists of data; some for budgets, etc. There are of course free alternatives to this, but still, companies by Excel for their employees; because it's "the standard" so to speak.

                                  Access, well, that's another can of worms right there; Access is really just a "front-end" to the freely available JET database engine; really they would have to release a new version with every release of the Engine, as well; if nothing else but to take advantage of the new features they added.

                                  Powerpoint... well, personally I've always hated powerpoint. From what I can tell it's pretty well unchanged.

                                  When it comes to office I would have to agree; they really have sort of started releasing incremental upgrades that don't provide anything of value. Of course they don't, by any means, force users to upgrade; several of my PCs, for example, still have Word 6.0 installed, and I'm able to transfer documents between it and my newer Word Versions. Same goes for excel. Really, it's a matter of preference.
                                  Quote
                                  Upgrade for upgrades sake is crap... upgrade because it's SUPERIOR..... now THATS another story!!

                                  I see what you mean. Essentially, this sort of thinking was present with the release of windows 3.1; "why upgrade to 3.1? I'm perfectly happy with 3.0!" Now, obviously, a case could be made that it, as well as many other perceived "OS updates" such as Windows 98 and 98SE, should have been provided free to previous windows owners. But the problem with that is, then MS is doing it for no reason. Sure; they will have a pleased customer base; but, consider that there is no reason really to keep your customers happy if you aren't going to be able to sell another product to them. If a user needs to be given something free in order to be happy with it then your marketing strategy is already flawed.

                                  Many people say that MS is only focussed on changing the UI; of things you can see. People constantly ask for MS to rewrite the core routines to be "more robust" Without realizing that that is kind of why they have an entire team of programmers devoted to the kernel. The thing is that MS has a very good reason to focus on the UI.
                                  Let's Consider, for a moment, something people used to complain about incessantly; how none of the built-in applets have changed since windows 3.1 (with windows 7 this is different since they've all been completely revamped; Wordpad is more like a Word 2007 lite). What these people don't realize is that with the release of windows 2000, The Windows Calculator Applet's arithmetic engine was completely thrown away and rewritten from scratch. This was done after people kept writing ha-ha articles about how Calc couldn't do decimal arithmetic correctly, that for example computing 10.21 - 10.2 resulted in 0.0100000000000016.
                                  Today, Calc's internal computations are done with infinite precision for basic operations (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division) and 32 digits of precision for advanced operations (square root, transcendental operators).

                                  Try it: 1 / 3 * 10000000000 - 3333333333 =. The result is one third exactly. Type 1/x - 3 = and you get zero back. (Of course, if you don't believe that, then repeat the sequence "* 10000000000 - 3333333333 =" until you're bored and notice that the answer always comes back as 0.33333333333333333333333333333333. If it were fixed-precision, then the 3's would eventually stop coming.)

                                  Thirty-two positions of precision for inexact results not good enough? The Power Calculator PowerToy uses the same arithmetic engine as Calc and lets you crank the precision to an unimaginable 512 digits.

                                  Anyway, my point is that - whether you like it or not - if you don't change the UI, nobody notices. That's why so much effort is spent on new UI.

                                  Would you really buy a version of windows XP that looked exactly the same as always but that MS purported to have "completely rewritten from scratch"? Even though it did the exact same thing as the previous version? Would you buy it if it cost the same amount as Vista? Some people would, obviously, it's certainly good for those XP devotees. But; what if it could only run special "made for Special XP" programs, and was unable to run any older Programs? such is the catch-22; in order to <really> "optimize windows XP to death" they would need to strip out the entire application compatibility library and all the apphacks, (this should speed things up a lot!) remove the NTVDM while their at it, since that's just backward compatibility.

                                  "But!" every says... "Vista is essentially that "special XP" you speak of! my <insert old windows 95 game here> no longer works!

                                  ahh, but you see, in many cases that "windows 95" game only worked on windows 95 because MS literally devoted a team of programmers to figuring out why it <didn't> work. One such program was Doom; of course it wasn't actually a windows application, but Running DOOM under windows 95 was on their "priority" list. here's the thing though; ID software probably didn't care wether Doom ran on Windows 95. And really, I don't blame them. People have already paid them for the game; they'd released several patches, they figured the customer got way more then they paid for. Doom95 was essentially a port done by MS to work on windows 95. Now, Microsoft obviously wasn't concerned that the customers who bought doom were being treated unfairly by ID software; but rather that they can increase their chances of those people buying windows 95 if they can get Doom running on it; so one might proclaim it was purely in "self-interest". But, really; what self-respecting company is going to go to all that effort out of the goodness of their heart? Even Open Source programmers heartily avoid the big issues and go make yet another reversi clone for yet another desktop environment that emulates both windows and mac and yet manages to get the worst of both. (xfce being a notable exception).

                                  I perform mot of my programming in Visual Basic 6.0; this was released by MS in 1998; over 10 years ago. Sure, I have visual studio 2008, but Microsoft completely broke with tradition and rewrote the entire language for .NET, so I cannot even open my VB6 projects in it.

                                  Visual Basic 6, as far as Microsoft is concerned, is no longer supported.

                                  The programs it creates are essentially designed for windows 98.To get things like XP and Vista themes, Aero glass, etc, just takes a bit of work and some reading of the documentation on the new OS features.

                                  I imagine this sort of thing holds true with their other software packages as well, but probably to a far lesser degree; unlike the VB6 to .NET switch, you can still, for example, open your Excel 2000 files with excel 2008; and, I doubt any of the features of excel 2008 really warrant a switch anyway.

                                  Basically, what I mean is, don't blame the vendor when people decide to upgrade for upgrades sake.

                                  And- Service packs are a completely different concept altogether. you propose that they not release the OS at all and some how have these "hotfixes" implemented in the release version; well, unfortunately, that simply isn't the way it works. Microsoft Windows is not exactly a trivial source code management project and with any project of any non-trivial size there are going to be bugs. The only way those bugs can ever be found is by deploying the application. if, in practice, issues are encountered they are patched. And these patches are released nearly instantaneously through windows update. the interesting thing is, only about 10% of all windows update "security vulnerabilities" affect the average user; many of them are fairly specific and deal with server configurations or IIS. That, and they are offered free anyway, so you can't really complain. NT 3.51 had 6 different service packs before NT4 was released, IIRC; so obviously they have managed to reduce the number of SP's they release, if nothing else.
                                  I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                  Hankster58



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                                    Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                    « Reply #25 on: February 02, 2010, 11:45:03 PM »
                                    You are obviously sharp as a tack!! So i'm going to bounce this one off of you, no one as of yet has been able to give me a clear cut answer....
                                    I installed the Windows 7 32 bit update on my computer tonight, so far... it's living up to the reports.... no screw ups, MUCH faster (on my computer anyway) etc... cool!! Now for the "problem".....During the install process, the program said since 7 does NOT have an e-mail program anymore.....it would save all my addresses, E-mails etc to be installed on the e-mail program of my choice. Good so far. I set up Thunderbird.... works fine... BUT, HOW do I get the e-mails from the "unknown" location onto Thunderbird???? Tbird doesn't see them when running "import".... so what is the process to find them, and pull them over??? DEidn't think this would be such a bear since the install seemed to be taking it into account etc..... any ideas??

                                    BC_Programmer


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                                    Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                    « Reply #26 on: February 03, 2010, 12:03:40 AM »
                                    hmm, that's a good question!

                                    If you installed over a copy of Vista (sounds like it) the installer probably made a folder called "windows.0"... you might be able to find the  emails there somewhere.

                                    this has piqued my curiosity, So I'm installing Vista in an VM explicitly so I can upgrade and see where the setup program backs up the e-mail data too  ;D
                                    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                    BC_Programmer


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                                    Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                    « Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 12:38:35 AM »
                                    Alright I had a looksee.

                                    I'm not 100% on this, but I think when you upgrade to windows 7, it automatically creates a Easy Transfer File; I'm not sure where it saves it... My laptop was upgraded from windows Vista and it has a folder called C:\$WINDOWS.~Q that seems to have backed up stuff from the older vista install.

                                    I couldn't find any "MIG" files, which the easy transfer program would use.... but then again, I don't think it backed up any e-mail info since I hadn't used windows mail. Try doing a search on your disk for "*.mig" files, and if you find one, feed it to the windows easy Transfer program.
                                    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                    Hankster58



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                                      Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                      « Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 09:28:45 AM »
                                      I found "wabmig" the address book file, but the date on it is from when I did a re-install of Vista after the IE 8 problems I had a few months back.... NOTHING showing yesterdays date I've found so far.... another of MS little "gotcha's"!!! Promised one thing...got another! (So far) I went to their website for help, and other than saying what I have, "the install will save your info for use on a new email program".... NOTHING!! No helkp on how to GET the info back whatsoever!! Oh, they do suggest you download THEIR e-mail deal....I did, but at 132 MEGABYTES i decided to try something a bit less BLOATED.... Thunderbird is just 3 or 4 megs.... Now what??? Anyone??

                                      soybean



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                                      Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                      « Reply #29 on: February 03, 2010, 09:43:19 AM »
                                      Oh, they do suggest you download THEIR e-mail deal....I did, but at 132 MEGABYTES i decided to try something a bit less BLOATED....
                                      Umm, what is "THEIR e-mail deal"?   ???

                                      I suggest you download Windows Live Mail and try importing your Windows Mail messages into it.  For a guide on this, see: Windows 7 - Windows Live Mail - Import Windows Mail Messages

                                      Hankster58



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                                        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                        « Reply #30 on: February 03, 2010, 11:00:12 AM »
                                        That IS "their e-mail deal"!! My beef is WHY am I forced to use what THEY want, or do without??? Why isn't a "save" just a "save"??? The claim you can "use any e-mail program" is true.. you just have to be willing to lose all your stored e-mails it would seem .... UNLESS you use "their deal". So the whole argument they put up about not GIVING you "Windows Mail" (which I used and liked!!) so not to infringe on other programs ability to be used is just so much B.S. ..... and, why can't I just GET an "Email" program from MS??? Why is that "Live" thing full of stuff I do not WANT or NEED.... hence the "bloatware" claims against MS... i guess some will get riled i've impuned MS again.. but I feel my claim is valid here!

                                        patio

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                                        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                        « Reply #31 on: February 03, 2010, 11:03:34 AM »
                                        Did you make any system backups before installing Win7 ? ?
                                        Your TBird Profile is located in Docs and Settings/user name/applications/Mozilla/Thunderbird/Profile...

                                        Or Mozback is a handy little app for backing up/restoring Profiles in both FireFox and Thunderbird...
                                        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

                                        soybean



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                                        Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                        « Reply #32 on: February 03, 2010, 11:45:22 AM »
                                        That IS "their e-mail deal"!!
                                        What is, Windows Live Mail? 

                                        why can't I just GET an "Email" program from MS???
                                        You can.  That is Windows Live Mail; it's a Microsoft product.   ::)

                                        Why is that "Live" thing full of stuff I do not WANT or NEED.... hence the "bloatware" claims against MS
                                        At http://download.live.com/wlmail, you see Mail, Messenger, Photo Gallery, etc.  Just get Mail.  You do not need to install all the programs listed on the Windows Live page.  The initial download is a 1.1MB installer file. Once you open it, you can choose what programs you actually want to install.

                                        jkolak



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                                          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                          « Reply #33 on: February 03, 2010, 12:46:04 PM »
                                          That IS "their e-mail deal"!! My beef is WHY am I forced to use what THEY want, or do without???

                                          I would say at this point that it would just be good to be glad MS has a solution to help you save your data.

                                          After you get it all transferred over, you can transfer it again to another app and dump MS.

                                          soybean



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                                          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                          « Reply #34 on: February 03, 2010, 12:50:30 PM »
                                          After you get it all transferred over, you can transfer it again to another app and dump MS.
                                          He could, but I'd give WLM a try.  I use it with Win 7 and like it. 

                                          BC_Programmer


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                                          Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                          « Reply #35 on: February 03, 2010, 02:03:05 PM »
                                          Quote
                                          So the whole argument they put up about not GIVING you "Windows Mail" (which I used and liked!!) so not to infringe on other programs ability to be used is just so much B.S.
                                          Yeah that's total B.S. they only got sued once before for something like that. (Netscape V. Microsoft). This is teh same reason that the applets are generally quite limited.


                                          Quote
                                          another of MS little "gotcha's"!!! Promised one thing...got another!

                                          Doubt it, it's saved somewhere.

                                          Although strangely I can find absolutely no reference to Windows 7 upgrade backing up e-mails nor where they are saved.  ???
                                          I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                          jkolak



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                                            Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                            « Reply #36 on: February 03, 2010, 02:10:06 PM »
                                            Doubt it, it's saved somewhere.

                                            Although strangely I can find absolutely no reference to Windows 7 upgrade backing up e-mails nor where they are saved.  ???

                                            I would imagine that when Windows upgrades, it leaves applications in place with their data.

                                            If an application is no longer supported by the new Windows, I would expect it to be in Discarded Windows Installation Files.

                                            Hankster58



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                                              Re: down grade windows 7 towindows XP
                                              « Reply #37 on: February 03, 2010, 03:31:53 PM »
                                              Ya know BC... it's really hard to have an honest "conversation" when you have to do it in lil "snippets" like we do here.... face to face I think you'd find we have a LOT more in common than we disagree on..... that said.... I Give up! I installed Windows live mail whatever.. and sure enough it's designed to import their content 1,2,3!! So i did as the instructions said.... and you can see all my old folders show up, the number of e-mails in them.. and the numbers whizzing as they load in!! COOL!! Well, cool until you actually CLICK on one to open it... nothin happens!! Click "properties" of the folder??? NO FILES!! ZERO content!!  Now, I SAW them being downloaded..... saw the correct numbers.... what the heck is THIS???
                                              Patio.. unfortunately, I installed Thunderbird AFTER the upgrade...had no previous experience with it, no backup etc... all new. All I was counting on was the MS install to do what it said, save the email data for use on the "program of my choice"..... and it isn't happening..... now it doesn't even show up on the MICROSOFT brand product! ok... now what.

                                              ok.. did an import again... it says it downloaded the e-mails in "Windows Mail Format"..... does THIS have a bearing on the problem??? If so.....how do i fix it???