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Author Topic: Game Development  (Read 5242 times)

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Syrena

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Game Development
« on: April 01, 2017, 09:47:15 AM »
Anybody into game development? I don't just mean programming, but writing, art, sound, etc. I want to read The Ultimate Guide to Video Game Writing and Design. I've always been interested in how games get written and planned out before going into production.


DaveLembke



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Re: Game Development
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 11:14:02 AM »
I have read books on this subject, and wanted to get into this years ago but didnt.... What questions do you have?

The one biggest thing that I learned on this subject is that 99.9% of the games out there are not just one person who wants to make a game and makes it and markets it themselves. The games have teams of programmers, game rendering and graphic artists for making all the characters and graphic environments, voice over artists, and investors and marketing team and that budgets in the millions of dollars to develop and release a game title for sale is the majority of the software titles out there with some costing tens or hundreds of millions to develop in hopes that what they made for software wont be a flop and it will turn a profit greater than that of the development costs.

The books I read did not sugar coat that everyone can be one of the people on the game development team, it was VERY down to earth and told you that you have to pretty much be the best of the best in whatever aspect of the development that you want to be a part of. Additionally if your a greenhorn, that is, you have never developed a game before or been in a team environment to produce a profitable piece of software, you have even harder chances of hitting it big, that is unless your privileged with connections to someone already in this field.

Just like most tech jobs, many employers have requirements of 3 to 5 years experience working for a well known business in the field, so that your able to jump on board and do the job with minimal training. If your lucky you might be able to get an internship with a game or any other software company to get the work experience in this environment to bridge you to the career of your choice as for most employers especially game design companies do not hire greenhorns for mission critical roles in software and game development because deadlines have to be met and the risk of not meeting deadlines reduced by having on board skilled help who will have a greater probability of meeting the deadline goals as well as making for a quality product that wont have bugs that are the result of someone who is new to a field etc.

You will want to build a portfolio of your skills so you can sell yourself. If its programming for example you will need to show code examples as well as be prepared to demonstrate your skills during interview and defend your programming when it may be critiqued in a manner to see how you handle negative and positive feedback. If graphic game design and user interface design etc, you will need to be able to show examples of what you have on that as well.

Additionally, while I havent landed a job as a "Programmer", I was once in an interview as an "Electronics Engineering Assistant" and it had a requirement that you know your way around C++. I was instructed to bring with me to the interview code examples. I had an interview in 4 days and I had nothing really to show for my skills. I had to hit the computer and put together programs that I found fit a use that was ALL my programming and no plagiarism! In programming its ok to use objects similar to others work as your own, as long as you have it constructed differently, but grabbing someone elses program and just changing variable names and menu information isnt enough, you need to really stick to making your own product and have comment lines in the program and show good use of reuse of objects etc. I ended up putting two programs together for the interview that were about 5 pages each in length. One of them was a game but rather simple. The other was a program that was to be used in testing environment that worked with Parallel Port I/O to control relays and feedback from inputs. I had a circuit with this and I came forward and said that this program is open source from this said location and I added my own menu's and options to this already existing program. I showed a before and after code examples of what I added and why. I demonstrated that I was able to read someone elses code and modify it as needed for my own needs.

The game I showed they were not impressed with and didnt really raise an eye brow to. But the code example of the open source relay control software that I took someone elses product, I was able to read it and add my own menu system to it to make it better for a specific application. This right here sold my skills to them as well as showing that I knew my way around electronic circuits and demonstrated how to use an oscilloscope and troubleshoot their interview never seen before test board and fix 2 problems. One problem was a 1 amp fuse on the board was popped but this small fuse that looked like a green 1/4 watt resistor had no physical signs that it was blown. 5 volts in and no 5 volts out the other end of the fuse. Test 1 passed. Ok now test 2. A board that would not communicate. I troubleshot this for about 10 minutes and then found that the crystal that was on the board was the wrong crystal. Instead of 16Mhz it was 24Mhz. Anyone looking quickly on the clock pin would see a clock signal and move on and never find it. I was told that I was one of 2 people that found this bug on this test board, 9 others before us sweat it out and didnt catch the problem seeing the squarewave and moving on and chasing their tails with wrong guesses.

Unfortunately, this job didnt pan out to what I had hoped. I was only getting $15 an hour as an Electronics Engineering Apprentice which should have been a title of a Production Test Technician since i was testing their product and repairing them. The owner of the company was a graduate of a big name college and he engineered and marketed a product and I was testing it and troubleshooting it and the engineer there I really didnt work with. I was hired through a temp agency and when testing their product, i was able to test 840 of these little boards in a day and I thought i was doing really well at 800 tested and bagged for ready to be boxed and sold... the owner said he was hoping i would have 1200 of these done in a day. I looked at him and laughed. He didnt like that I laughed. I backed up my laugh with, your surely joking right, because in an 8 hour day and each board taking 30 seconds to test with 18 seconds of that 30 seconds being connecting the small board the size of a postage stamp to a test station, the center of a wheel, and a download, and the other 12 seconds being turning the wheel a full rotation and watching the values on the read out to be +/- within a specific tolerance, each board takes 30 seconds to test, with 2 per minute thats 120 per hour than can be tested, and in an 8 hour day thats a maximum of 960 of these tested which falls short of your 1200. So are you suggesting that I work a 10 hour day to get the 1200, since if all goes as planned with no board failures and no distractions, if I get 2 done per minute I can hit 1200 in 10 hours? He said no... You need to hit 1200 in 8 hours. I said laughing and shaking my head, your asking for the impossible. He said well if its impossible then find another job. So I said ok here I have a solution. But it will take money and it wont be happening for a few days if implemented. I said approve of me to modify your test wheel to test at least 2 of these at the same time. Then in an 8 hour day with no distractions and no complications there is potential for around 1920 of these to be tested. I said with a laugh I guess I passed this test.... so when can i start ordering the stuff we need to be able to test 2 of these at a time? He looked red in the face and said, this was no test. I really need 1200 of these tested in a day! I said well, I am not able to change the laws of physics and time, and someone with a degree of your stature I would think would be able to do simple math of 2 x 60 x 8 and know that 1200 is not going to happen in an 8 hour day. So I contacted the temp agency that evening and thanked them for the placement of the position, but that the owner had unrealistic expectations so I have to leave employment with them.

While this example above isnt game development, it is to show that some employment out there can have unrealistic expectations as well as show real life examples of testing for employment to show your skills and my C++ skills were shown here that vaguely ties into game development. But most importantly that you best be prepared to sit down in an environment that they have set up for you and show that you will sink or swim in whatever it is that you want for a job. This job was the most extensive and longest interview ever. It was 3 hours long. And my wife thought i broke down somewhere because what interview starts at 3:30pm and goes to 6:30pm.. most are done in under an hour. But they kept throwing stuff my way to see where I would make mistakes or where I would show a weakness and in not finding weaknesses its almost like dealing with an auditor and an auditor can never audit something and not find anything because if they dont find anything its as if they arent doing their job good enough as an auditor so you almost have to give them something so they are satisfied and so I caught on to this and so I started just saying openly where my strengths and weaknesses were so that they would either finally be satisfied that the interview is complete and I am hired or not because my stomach was growling and I was ready to leave at that point spent on the Q&A and tests they kept throwing at me to try to get me to flop and fail at something, and I wasnt failing.

Lastly, most games out there are made using game engines. Programming and rendering etc all made with tools to work with specific engines. The one book I have on game development and design goes into talking about all the different game engine environments and talks a lot about the unreal engine and how knowledge of working with certain engines are beneficial than that of someone who has not worked with those engines before.

Hoping anything I share doesnt deter you from whatever your passion is.... but just sharing from reading about it and researching it.... These positions are not easy to land! And if your lucky you might get an internship to get the experience requirement that you need and have a foot in the door that way, but that to be accepted for an internship you will likely have to be very good in the field of study at your college so that when going in for interview for internship you can show them that your a 3.7 or better GPA etc as for the book talks greatly on the game dev companies wanting the best of the best. Many companies use internships as cheap labor and a ways to feel out who to keep and who to drop without having to deal with hiring and firing regular career employees that may have labor law privileges that interns lack, as well as many arent given a 40 hour work week and so there are no health benefits etc, and being just an intern your salary is peanuts compared to the real bread that those in the field get paid who have the actual positions.

Once again, any specific questions on this, please feel free to ask. And maybe someone else here may be able to answer where I lack knowledge of etc.  :)


Syrena

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Re: Game Development
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 04:02:43 PM »
Thanks for your reply DaveLembke!

Your answer was a good read.

I don’t have any question in particular. I just wanted to see if there was some excitement when it comes to game development/gaming in general. From high school I knew I wanted to get into video game programming, long story short, I didn’t become a game programmer.

The reason?

Quote
Just like most tech jobs, many employers have requirements of 3 to 5 years experience working for a well known business in the field, so that your able to jump on board and do the job with minimal training.

Didn’t have any experience, or a computer science degree.

and
Quote
You will want to build a portfolio of your skills so you can sell yourself. If its programming for example you will need to show code examples as well as be prepared to demonstrate your skills during interview and defend your programming when it may be critiqued in a manner to see how you handle negative and positive feedback. If graphic game design and user interface design etc, you will need to be able to show examples of what you have on that as well.

I had programming examples, and can take criticism, the problem for me are extremely complicated topics such as threading, generics, data structures, garbage collection, design patterns, and what makes good code. A lot more topics exist that they didn’t teach, but those few are what come to mind.

Also, I’d also like to add strong math skills. Graphics/Gameplay will always involve some level math.

It just seems that the level of excitement about gaming just isn’t the same as it was a few years ago. I’m talking about when Xbox 360/PS3/PC gaming were huge, sites like IGN, Gamespot, etc. where putting out content every week, and smaller-midsize studios were doing well enough to stay open a couple of years. Now, small studios either close down or get bought out by bigger companies, and sites that cover gaming shut down or cover content unrelated to gaming. Unless you’re a big name studio, it just doesn’t look good at all for gaming.   

Quote
Hoping anything I share doesnt deter you from whatever your passion is.... but just sharing from reading about it and researching it.... These positions are not easy to land! And if your lucky you might get an internship to get the experience requirement that you need and have a foot in the door that way, but that to be accepted for an internship you will likely have to be very good in the field of study at your college so that when going in for interview for internship you can show them that your a 3.7 or better GPA etc as for the book talks greatly on the game dev companies wanting the best of the best. Many companies use internships as cheap labor and a ways to feel out who to keep and who to drop without having to deal with hiring and firing regular career employees that may have labor law privileges that interns lack, as well as many arent given a 40 hour work week and so there are no health benefits etc, and being just an intern your salary is peanuts compared to the real bread that those in the field get paid who have the actual positions.

It’s interesting you should bring this up, as a game development company downtown, has two positions that I’ve already applied too. The first is, General Interest(didn’t see the job you were looking for? The company will take to the time to look over your resume, and see if they have anything that fits) and Community Support Representative(think customer service), you basically go though the forums, and look for users who have problems and help them.

Quote
Lastly, most games out there are made using game engines. Programming and rendering etc all made with tools to work with specific engines. The one book I have on game development and design goes into talking about all the different game engine environments and talks a lot about the unreal engine and how knowledge of working with certain engines are beneficial than that of someone who has not worked with those engines before.   

The company uses Unity as they are a small-midsize company, so licensing the Unreal engine might be expensive, but I understand what you mean. It’s best to have some experience with a game engine than none.

DaveLembke



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Re: Game Development
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 10:51:52 AM »
Quote
It just seems that the level of excitement about gaming just isn’t the same as it was a few years ago. I’m talking about when Xbox 360/PS3/PC gaming were huge, sites like IGN, Gamespot, etc. where putting out content every week, and smaller-midsize studios were doing well enough to stay open a couple of years. Now, small studios either close down or get bought out by bigger companies, and sites that cover gaming shut down or cover content unrelated to gaming. Unless you’re a big name studio, it just doesn’t look good at all for gaming. 

On this subject, I have to say that  while Gamestop or Gamespot might not show the excitement.... I have 3 things to say on this..

First Indie Games seem to be doing rather well, and especially games for Android that are free and make money on ads or low cost to where the game is good and someone is willing to buy it for say 99 cents. In addition to Android based games, Steam for example has tons of low cost games that are in the Indie game sort of category that do quite well, however there is no information on the cost/sales ratio to know what titles cost to make vs sales to offset the cost to make the title and what the profitability is, but there are small indie game studio names that likely had much smaller development costs than that of say an xbox or PS4 game title and they are turning a healthy profit.

The second thing i have to say on this subject is in relation to my last 2 visits to Gamestop. I use to like going into Gamestop and buy my PC Games there. They use to have a good selection such as a shelf out on the floor with both sides of it full of PC Games, one side new games and other side was used games. This was less than 10 years ago that I would go in and be happy with my visit. Then The selection shrunk fast when used games could no longer be purchased. So they were down to one side of a island like shelf in the back of the store. Then it started to shrink more and more. I asked them why they weren't stocking PC Games anymore and they said console games are where the money is at and if you want to buy used console games we can still sell those, but cant sell PC Games Used anymore because we ran into problems with people buying games, installing the games or ripping copies of the games and then reselling the game to get money back on the games to buy more and repeat the same shady gamer ethics. They said that PC Gaming is dying and console gaming is where its at. I being a hardcore PC Gamer for years kind of took defense to this stating that PC Gaming is stronger than ever and took it that this guy was likely trying to convert me to being a console gamer because they need console gamer customers in order to survive since they aren't in the interest of PC Gamers.

My last visit to Gamestop was a month ago. My daughter wanted a game for her PS3 and so I figured sure lets go in and see what they have its been a while since I was in there and it will be interesting to see if they even have a PC Game selection left. To my surprise when asking if they had any PC games the guy was like ... oh over here ... and it was on the lowest shelf along the right wall below some other gamer nic-nacks. There was about 12 games in game boxes and some were still $49.99 and others were marked down on discount. I found one game a $50 title marked down to $9.99 and another game a $30 title for $4.99 and so I figured I'd buy these games for $14.98.

When checking out the guy ran the games up and he paused. I was like whats up... are they not on file... just override and sell it at the sticker price. the sales associate said... they are ringing up for a Penny a Piece, he said I cant sell these for 2 cents. I said, just do the override and sell then for $14.98 I dont expect to get them for $0.02, I can see its a mistake. The guy says hold on I need to call my boss. So he gets on his cell phone and calls his boss at home at 7:30pm and the boss answers. The boss stated to him over the phone that oh those are recalled and cant be sold. I was like WHAT? Recalled Games on the shelf that are ringing up for a penny each? SERIOUSLY!!!!?

The cashier said ... sorry I cant sell these they have been recalled. I just stood there in disbelief. And asked what the recall was for? Choking Hazard or something?

The cashier said that the games have bugs and I guess we cant sell them. I said at $14.98 for 2 game titles, i could care less if it has some sort of glitch or bug. Paying that kind of money its almost expected that your going to get what you pay for I said in a joking manner.

The guy said... sorry my boss said I cant sell these. I was angered and said... you might want to pull all the PC Games off the shelf and see which ones ring up for a penny and which ones ring up full price. I said this is insane. And as I was leaving he jabbed me with just face it PC Gaming is dying, switch to a console. In which I turned around and said.... Console Games are outside of my gaming budget. I said I use to be a console gamer from Atari 2600 in the late 1970s all the way to PlayStation 1, but that I cant see dropping $50-$60 or more on a game. I said years ago I use to work for KB Toys and my whole paycheck would go to buying console video games. I have spent over $10,000 in games over the last 30 years easily and looking back at all the money spent, that was sort of wasted, if I had bought into PC Games sooner, i would have spent less. I said Shareware and Freeware DOS games back in the day couldnt really compete with console games, but that now days the graphics of PC Games and Console Games are a match and game titles are ported across multiple platforms. I said you can stick with your console games and pay the piper, I am going to stick to my PC Gaming and pay generally less for games.

I havent been back there since, that was the final straw with Gamestop.

Steam is where I get most of my games and that place is very successful and very active for PC gamers and there are still likely hundreds of millions if not Billions of PC Gamers out there playing old and new games on a wide variety of aged computers. I even get games on discount through Humble Bundle in which some of the money goes to charity and other goes to Humble Bundle the business as well as the game devs that own the rights to the games. I like that they have a set your own price for games at Humble Bundle. I can get indie games and get 5 for $1 on a humble bundle deal or if there is a game on sale at a price point, I can pay say $15, get the 1 title that I had to have on discount as well as I am getting 8 other games as part of the same bundle.  Only problem I have now is that I sometimes buy games in volume faster than I have time to try out all the games.  ;D

The third thing to say on this is in relation to game devs that come and go and bought up by others etc. This has been happening for years. Yes I do agree that it seems to happen more now than in prior years. It might be healthier that this happens as for devs like Blizzard Entertainment for example use to hire on a massive crew to bulldoze their way through a project to get it all done and then have a massive firing/layoff exodus when the game was complete to shed employment costs. With the devs being bought up then the employees may be retained to work on multiple projects vs flash in the pan Feast or Famine when it comes to work and employment. Blizzard Entertainment by shedding talented people gave birth to Runic Games when ex Blizzard devs grouped together to form their own games. Games such as Torchlight and Torchlight II are fun dungeon crawlers similar to Diablo II and Diablo III as well as has some World of Warcraft hints to it using OGRE engine thats licensed through MIT.

Lastly:
Developing for mobile devices is where I would focus if I was going into game dev these days myself. Simple and Addictive games seem to be a hit as well as games you can play for 5 minutes here and there with pause in between to take care of other real life responsibilities. I have found myself playing more games on my Android phone and tablet than in years prior after being resistant to these touch games in favor of keyboard/mouse and larger display.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Game Development
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 02:07:58 PM »
I think the comment that "It just seems that the level of excitement about gaming just isn’t the same as it was a few years ago." is largely projection rather than a frank evaluation of how things are. I would have said the same thing in 2004-2005, for example, but it was actually *me* that was simply not getting excited about games, because honestly there is more important stuff to worry about. Breath of the Wild was the only game I got "excited" for in the run up and I wouldn't have bothered to buy it if it meant waiting in line.

As far as Game Development, it's the golden child of software development. You ask people "Why did you get interested in programming" and a sizable chunk of them are likely to answer in some way that relates to video games, and say they want to make vidieo games. Very few are going to say that Microsoft Excel captivated their youth and ever since they were a young child they had always wanted to work on graph programming. As a result, Game Programming as a profession has so many people who "want in" that the employees are somewhat expendable.


Personally my interest in programming was definitely sparked by games, but my interest in games was replaced by an interest in programming in general. So many developers want so much to work on video games that they ignore the places where they aren't going to have as many people competing with them. I work on business software and I quite like it. It's rewarding because I am responsible for many parts of a rather large product that I can be proud of and stand behind, since I know it helps people do their jobs well. And new features are clear, rather than vague. You aren't going to find "subjective opinion" about whether an invoice was voided correctly, as you would with more ephemeral stuff like combat systems or driving physics or whatever. And honestly I like writing code to bill power meters no less than I do code to make an explosion in a game.

I still write small games, because it can still be fun. I usually make clones of "classic" games like snake or breakout, then add features that seem fun not only to implement but play. For example one of my Breakout clones has a "boss" enemy that is a snake made out of invincible bricks, as well as a "Pac-Man" Boss that tries to eat the ball. I don't even ever plan it as a finished game. I  just come up with ideas and put them into the game engine.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

DaveLembke



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Re: Game Development
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 01:52:01 PM »
Good info BC, and I agree with it, and its also the reason why i got into programming was playing games and wanting to bend-games to add my own twist to open source games in BASIC for example etc where I would learn mostly from breaking the games how to make things move faster or slower or add my own content to zork like type games and then run off on my own making ASCII based Zork like games which were fun when adding random generator to load up different random scenarios so it was never the same each time played. In which playing the same linear game and being able to map out the flow chart to beating it I found kind of dull, but by adding the unknown to it, it made it fun for me the programmer of the game because I didnt know what was going to happen when making decisions.

One thing I didnt share earlier that I am going to share now is.... Game Complexity seems like a race. A race to make something really good with the latest hardware that consumers will buy to game on. Hardware and Software evolving, it can be a lot to try to keep up with. Then you have to worry about being able to support the latest of hardware which might have surprise flaws or bugs by hardware design in addition to supporting more common hardware such as video cards etc.

And as a developer as the next engine for example becomes available, you need to master it fast and be able to create a realistic and viable product to make money quickly because you dont want to put so much effort into making a game and then there is even a better engine before release and competition makes a better game that isnt so cartoonish in graphics and play and they steal your business launching something with better eye appeal.

There have been game devs that have put time and money into games and tombstoned them before they were ever finished.  One of the companies was cool enough to release a partial game for people to play with that has an alien open world and there are NPC's that are lacking stuff to say when clicked on etc, but it was released under the agreement that someone cant take it as their own, but people can use it to build from for FREE open source gaming. I compiled it and got it running and was messing with it, but found myself in the situation similar to BC stated that other stuff is more important stuff to worry about so my time is limited, and so I toyed with it to have fun with it, but it would need a community of programmers to piece together the partially created game to complete it.

Here is the game that was tombstoned by devs and released for people to mess with for free that i played with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryzom

Another open world game environment I have played with is OpenSIM. I got into messing around with OpenSIM through my play and adventure in Second Life a virtual hang out where you can create and program items for in game and sell them and convert the Linden with is their money system back to Dollars if your a good programmer and people buy your product, but Second Life is sort of at the end of its life. I started playing it in 2006 and it was way more active then. These days I go places to chat and have fun with other strangers and occasional friends as a Vampire or Human depending on which account I play and  it costs money to have places for people to hang out and if the rent isnt paid the places get wiped out and so some places are well funded and survive the test of time there and others come and go. People pool in certain areas and donate real money in the form of virtual currency that you buy with real money. I have spent probably $100 in all since 2006 on this so not bad at less than $10 a year. I was hoping to find a way to export items from Second Life to my OpenSIM to mess with items in my own private server type space, but havent found a way to export items from my account on the live Second Life SIM servers to my own private world. So I am stuck making everything there from scratch in which I am very good at making stationary objects, like buildings etc, but Second Life has realistic items like motorcycles and cars and waterfalls and all sorts of cool stuff but unless I code it myself or find someone who has the code to create in my OpenSIM. Its a rather boring island surrounded by ocean and the glare of the sun off the rippling ocean waves and clouds that move by in a blue sky vs Second Life which is HUGE and so full of interactive stuff.

So the race of having to be the best of the best and make a product before whatever your programming is obsolete is a problem. I look at it as stressful for game devs and not the kind of stress that i need, so I just program for fun these days and either make up my own stuff that is usually not games because when it comes to graphics and collision detection and all that, I am not good at that, so I make programs that serve personal purposes or act as a way to make my job easier etc with automation etc as well as farming the internet for information with a team of computers performing gathering of data automated to then use that data in graphs and reports to look for certain things of interest or trends etc which is completely legal and I have used it to make money in the past mapping cycles etc and buying low and selling high for stocks on etrade etc. But I havent made much money yet doing this, and right now finding something good to buy into looks horrible when the market I feel is ready to burst and drop with borrowed money reinvested etc that is making for a nasty bubble etc.  ::) And I never borrow to invest, but its what i heard is a concern right now with others who are. So I am waiting for the next pop to buy in on for low risk and greater probability of payout companies that are too big to fail etc and have money spread out vs all eggs in one basket and lose it all.  ;D