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Author Topic: 64 bit OS  (Read 8522 times)

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BC_Programmer


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Re: 64 bit OS
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 06:45:20 PM »
Actually, you can install unsigned drivers in Vista/7 x86.  You can't install them in x64 unless you restart in unsigned driver mode (F8 startup menu, "Disable Driver Signature enforcement..."--granted this option is on the x86 F8 menu, it still lets users install unsigned drivers).

Really? I didn't know that. I haven't used the 32-bit version of Vista or 7, though, only the 64-bit version, so I figured it was a OS feature that covered both platforms.

Overall, malware writers are pretty crafty; For the most part the malware finds the new infection vector, and then a anti-malware tool is created to detect infections of that nature. Stuff like limited user accounts really helps prevent a lot of these potential "new" infection methods, since all the good elevation methods were plugged long ago.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

jkolak



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    Re: 64 bit OS
    « Reply #16 on: March 03, 2010, 04:56:54 AM »
    The main thing that is most noticeable in a 64bit os is that you can add more memory.

    I have one 64 bit machine running 32 bit Windows. I am thinking about changing it to 64 bit soon.

    I have 2 1GB memory modules installed, which in win32 shows as 2GB of memory.

    If I switch to 64 bit, does that mean I will have only 1GB of 64 bit memory?

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: 64 bit OS
    « Reply #17 on: March 03, 2010, 05:09:14 AM »
    I have one 64 bit machine running 32 bit Windows. I am thinking about changing it to 64 bit soon.

    I have 2 1GB memory modules installed, which in win32 shows as 2GB of memory.

    If I switch to 64 bit, does that mean I will have only 1GB of 64 bit memory?


    haha

    no.

    the bit-width of the memory doesn't change the size of a byte. a byte is 8-bits.

    32-bit processors since the 386 have been able to address a total RAM size of 2TB; however, chipset limitations prevented this (most 386's maxed out at 8MB or 16MB). The Win32 Limit of 4GB is more artificial then it is related to the actual architecture- it was a design decision based on the fact that hardly any hardware companies knew how to write a driver properly- and they crashed when loaded at an address higher then 4GB (or something like that, I don't have my SysInternals Winternals book handy)- in order to make things work the best (and since even one GB at the time cost about a grand) they set a limit of 4GB for recognized memory. Linux has no issues with a 32-bit machine and more then 4GB of RAM, either.

    Since 64-bit meant hardware manufacturers had to rewrite their drivers anyway, MS changed the rules so they actually had to pay attention- 64-bit operating System can handle any conceivable amount of RAM at this point (I think it goes into the Exabyte range).
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    jkolak



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      Re: 64 bit OS
      « Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 07:16:52 AM »
      haha

      no.

      the bit-width of the memory doesn't change the size of a byte. a byte is 8-bits.

      Sold! Switch to 64 it is! (as soon as I can get my apps and task load organized.... thanks for the info!)

      killerb255



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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 12:08:31 PM »
        Sold! Switch to 64 it is! (as soon as I can get my apps and task load organized.... thanks for the info!)

        Just make sure your apps can cope with x64 (about 95% of them can in WOW64).  Drivers have to be 64-bit or else the stuff in question just won't work.
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        Azzaboi



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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 12:26:31 PM »
        64bit will depend on your motherboard support. You can check the manual if it's there or not.

        If you have 3GB RAM or less, upgrading to 64bit is a waste. Plus you will need to double it pretty much for an 32bit apps, 6GB RAM or more. So unless you are planning to buy more memory or have spares.

        You will have to update the OS to 64bit and also you will need updating all your windows drivers, some older network cards, sound cards, etc, might not support 64bit software (because of the so-called cost developing double) and have to be replaced. Check the websites for drivers first! My wireless network card refused to work on 64bit.

        The way the 32bit applications will work is just use the first half 32bit and leave the next half blank. Only 64bit apps and games will use the entire memory slot.

        I have Windows XP SP3 32bit (3GB RAM) and Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit (6GB RAM). Both tweaked for gaming. The Windows XP SP3 32bit has better performance for gaming, Windows 7 is more multitasking applications.
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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 01:50:25 PM »
        Quote
        The way the 32bit applications will work is just use the first half 32bit and leave the next half blank. Only 64bit apps and games will use the entire memory slot.

        This is pretty innaccurate...
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        Allan

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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 01:53:19 PM »
        If you have 3GB RAM or less, upgrading to 64bit is a waste. Plus you will need to double it pretty much for an 32bit apps, 6GB RAM or more. So unless you are planning to buy more memory or have spares.

        As is this

        Azzaboi



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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 12:57:11 AM »
        Ok that was my misconception, 64-bit processes will take a little extra memory, that is a result of the memory pointers being a little bigger to address the larger amount of RAM, but not actual double in size. Vista doubles memory usage requirements over WinXP and Win7 uses much less.

        What will increase with 64-bit Windows is the amount of drive space needed for the operating system with a compatibility layer in place.
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        BC_Programmer


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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #24 on: March 05, 2010, 01:37:24 AM »
        Ok that was my misconception, 64-bit processes will take a little extra memory, that is a result of the memory pointers being a little bigger to address the larger amount of RAM, but not actual double in size.

        saying it uses a "little" extra is an overstatement. Also, last time I checked, the new handle size of 64 bits is double the old one of 32-bits. These are the pointers- NOT the actual data. the actual data being pointed to will still consume the same amount. that 512MB that Office applications allocate for no reason when you start them will still be 512MB. (heh)

        Sure, each handle is now 4 bytes larger. Woopdee doo.

        AND- this only applies to programs that are compiled to 64-bit. 32-bit programs, which still constitute a vast majority of programs (Office is still purely 32-bit, for example) still use 32-bit handles as they did before, and consume no extra memory then they would running on win32.
        Also- Disk space being consumed by a 64-bit compiled application compared to the same application compiled as 32-bit is negligible, except in cases where the author has huge blocks within "#IF WIN32" or #IF WIN64", which would vary the compiled code size.

        the  PE32+ format (which is used for 64-bit compiled Windows applications) is exactly the same as the PE format; in fact, the PE32+ format has a lot more in common with the PE format then the PE format did with the NE format.

        Quote
        In contrast to the Win32 exception handling, Win64 (both x64 and Itanium versions) uses table-based exception handling. No linked list of try data blocks is built on the stack. Instead, each Win64 executable contains a runtime function table. Each function table entry contains both the starting and ending address for the function, as well as the location of a rich set of data about exception-handling code in the function and the function's stack frame layout. See the IMAGE_RUNTIME_FUNCTION_ENTRY structure in WINNT.H and in the x64 SDK for the nitty-gritty on these structures.

        The table-based format used for SEH in win64 is both faster and consumes less memory then the win32 version.

        Source:http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc300794.aspx


        Here's the interesting bit; Any properly written Win32 program should be able to compile as a 64-bit application with no changes. The problem is the same as it was when 32-bit came around- moron programmers who decide, "well, golly gee, this pointer is the same as an INT type, so I'll save myself some typing by using INT instead of HWND or HDC or HANDLE..." and then, big surprise, 32-bit came around MS changed the HWND, HDC, and so on typedefs to now be 32-bit integer types, and whaddya know, the program stopped working.

        And at least then they had an excuse- it was the first major switch between bit widths (earlier versions switched between 8-bit and 16-bit, but nobody really cared then), and, the addition of hundreds of new APIs, a completely new interface, and so forth.

        the win32 to win64 switch has no such things. they added two functions though- and they are purely to determine if your running on a 64-bit machine from a 32-bit program (IsWOW64Process()).

        Quote
        Vista doubles memory usage requirements over WinXP and Win7 uses much less.

        That has absolutely nothing to do with win32 versus win64 memory consumption. And Windows 7 does not use much less then windows Vista.

        What will increase with 64-bit Windows is the amount of drive space needed for the operating system with a compatibility layer in place.
        Yeah, almost 0.1 percent of my hard drive is consumed by my syswow64 folder. Hard drive space consumption is completely inconsequential. the disk space used by windows has increased a lot from the early days, but people seem to ignore the fact that nowadays games are coming on 3 disc-DVD sets and taking upwards of 60GB of disk space when they used to fit on a floppy disk. Dunno why the creators of those games don't get yelled at.

        On the other hand, consider that all the compatibility stuff for 16-bit applications has now been completely eradicated.
        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        Azzaboi



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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #25 on: March 05, 2010, 11:25:26 AM »
        Also, last time I checked, the new handle size of 64 bits is double the old one of 32-bits. These are the pointers- NOT the actual data.

        Thank you for clearing that up with me, as I always thought it was more. The reason being, I was planning to upgrade WinXP 32bit to Vista 64bit ages back but was informed not to by a professional as it will double your memory size. I mistook this as an issue with 64bit rather than system requirements for Vista.
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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #26 on: March 05, 2010, 01:12:59 PM »
        I'd stop taking his advice...
        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

        Azzaboi



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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #27 on: March 05, 2010, 04:24:23 PM »
        I corrected what I said was wrong and why I said it...

        Your so wise, a guru, and would never make a mistake in your life patio... oh wait your using Vista (check the back of any game box for the system requirements - what you know double memory required over running it on WinXP).
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        kpac

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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #28 on: March 05, 2010, 04:29:28 PM »
        Quote
        oh wait your using Vista
        And....?

        I think you need to leave the attitude at the door.

        patio

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        Re: 64 bit OS
        « Reply #29 on: March 05, 2010, 04:33:14 PM »
        Not sure why you're taking it out on me...
        All i suggested was to stop listening to someone that gives innaccurate advice...period.
        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "