Opinions on Linux

[BC_Programmer]

I Stumbled upon this:

http://www.newhorizonssucks.net/LiveCD.html

[neelchauhan]

Linux is not the best but it is OK

[Cityscape]

Thanks for your input guys

If you ever have anything else to say just post it here.

[BC_Programmer]

Let me solidify Soybeans claims-

Linux was <not> designed to be user friendly. As the quote goes:

"Linux is not a code base.  Or a distro.  Or a kernel.  It's an attitude.  And it's not about Open Source.  It's about a bunch of people who still think vi is a Good config UI."

And it's <right> It's not about the user, it's never about the user. It's about the programmer. Now, it's fair to say that With Ubuntu at least that goal has changed, but honestly? I could barely tell the difference between Ubuntu and Slackware's KFCE. They both had that same "polished terd" feel. Of course this is from a user experience point of view; and really it's a testament to Linux's flexibility that so many different distro's exist and so many graphical environments. But the <choices> are not what make an operating system, it's the choices that <aren't> given that are important. For example, when you install windows, it' doesn't ask you what resolution to run at. it doesn't prompt you for anything but the disk to install. And yet every Linux installation I've done has troubled me with choices about where the swap goes, and what file system to use. seriously, *censored*. can they NOT choose a default and just have an "advanced" mode that asks these questions? Grandma is not going to know the strengths and weaknesses of ReiserFS versus ext4 and she's going to reason logically that if the installer has to <ask> it's an important question. Now, that being said, the Ubuntu installer is sparse in questioning compared to slackware. Slackware is pretty much a cross-examination. The problem with options is this:

the user doesn't necessarily percieve them as "options" but rather as an admittance of failure; it's like the program is saying "I have no idea what I'm doing, sure as *censored* hope you have an idea". And this is a major UI flaw across every platform. if a program can determine for itself what version of windows it's running, why the *censored* do they ask? "do you want to install the windows 2000 or Windows XP Version" when you're running XP is a rather stupid question. sure, add an <option> to force the use of windows 2000 installer options for for goodness sake it's not an <option> if there is no default value, the it's required input, and not <optional>.

Another peeve of mine (windows based, but still, while I'm on the subject) is some program installers.

They have this innate need to ask me what language to use. *censored* kind of a stupid question is that, "hmm, well, I see you're running the English Version of windows, I better make sure you don't want to install me using Cantonese" seriously, retarded. Don't ASK the user what language they speak when the bloody locale API can tell you. that's irresponsible, lazy, and downright stupid. "but it defaults to english!" they say. It defaults to english if you're running a <SPANISH> version of windows, too. lots' of thought went into that, didn't it.

Anyway, (as shown above) I'm not picking on Linux, but honestly? consider for a moment that Ubuntu is designed as a "beginner" operating system, to serve those who are still learning the mouse. We have to realize that not everybody wants to <learn> these things. they want to learn the bare minimum to get their work done, and when getting work done in Ubuntu requires the user to install kernel modules and compile things and resolve library conflicts. The fact that "it's not windows" is only going to drive the user so far. Bill Gates is rich for a reason and windows is dominant for a reason, and it's not because they use "strong-arm" tactics or whatever other communist based concepts Linux users are yelling about these days. Stop complaining about the competition and start fixing your distro's!

The windows installer is designed well. people with relatively little experience can install windows with no problem.  The reason? It doesn't trouble the user. If something goes wrong, it says so, but if everything is going fine it makes default choices and these choices work fine for 90% of the population, which saves 90% of the population from googling the difference between FAT32 and NTFS to weigh the important decision of what file system to use.



I prefer to use the computer, not spend my time searching usenet or entering sudo apt-get commands to acquire drivers that I later discover via the foreign readme file to actually be built for the wrong sub-model of my hardware, therefore requiring intense googling to find the right one. This would be fine but when the windows experience is a single google and a download it leaves a *censored* of a lot to be desired. Especially when the instructions create more questions then they resolve.

"Ahh, I have this hardware device, hmm, I know, I'll search for drivers"

the inevitable result is almost always a thread where somebody asked the very same question, and while in about 60% of cases the ubiquitous answer is something like "OMFG RTFM NOOB" by a user named "masterhaxxor712" or something equally indicative that they run Windows ME and spend their time playing Counter-Strike, occasionally one can stumble on a useful thread, which outlines the simple process of installation.

1. you download the zip, you extract it somewhere.

2. extract the tarball source that corresponds to your kernel version
 
3. stop <some random service>

4. compile the driver with the following command <random make command>

This as I said raises more questions for somebody not familar with Linux.

1.How do you extract a zip? (of course there are GUI tools for that now, but that is a rather recent addition).

2. *censored* is a tarball, how do I know what version of the kernel I have?

3. how do you stop a service?

4. Of course, this inevitably and always results in missing libraries, which you faithfully download, and you successfully install the driver, only to find that your desktop environment no longer works since it linked to a different version of of the library required by the driver which differs only by a single minute revision. Of course you cannot simply install the old lib since you'll break the driver, so *censored* do you do?

The beauty of that last point is one of the "strongest" arguments for many Linux evangelists is that it lets you escape "DLL *censored*" but all your doing is replacing DLL *censored* with LIB *censored* and let me tell you, DLL's actually get along. you cna have side by side installs, if you do it right. Linux has no such concept and the fact that it doesn't support having multiple versions of Binary components installed is almost as disgusting as the prospect of having grandmothers and 7 year olds compile freaking kernel modules.

[mr-bisquit]

Oh, God.
It is so difficult.
Nah.
It's easy.
My girlfriend who has no programming knowledge is using it.

[BC_Programmer]

wait a second, *censored* is this:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/general-10/linux-distros-too-hard-to-use-801102/

thank you so much Cityscape for taking that completely out of context and misinterpreting what I said. My post was in  response to <your> post.

Anyway, yes, there are graphical tools equivalent to most of the commands used. (actually, the number of built in applications is (obviously) a lot larger then windows, (there is a reason for that, although it's rather stupid).

Also, I fail to see how using sudo with apt-get is a issue... ()

Doesn't seem he knows too much about security risks.

The only reason I use sudo apt-get is because when you use apt-get without using sudo (or su, which I think can be used for the same purpose with certain options), it complains and helpfully asks "Are you root?"- so I used sudo. (Is there another way that is "better" to use apt-get properly from the terminal?) That's all. Of course running programs as root can be bad in cases where somebody else can control the flow of the program (consider stack overwriting code that takes advantage of the all too common flaw whereby programmers insist on using printf() with a single argument that was provided externally; that input can be manipulated so that printf overwrites the stack with user-injected code, and the RET instruction that would otherwise be issues at the end of main() (or whichever subroutine the program happens to be in) "returns" control to the injected piece of code. this injected piece of code usually just runs the shell; which is now rooted since the program was.

So the security implications only go as far as you "trust" the creators of the program.

Also, since I'm running the apt-get directly on my local machine, I could only have a security issue (from what I can tell) if the repository is compromised. I would certainly hope that that doesn't happen.


Anyway, my point was, as far as Linux has come, there are a few minor issues here and there that can be an incredible roadblock to the users migrating from windows; now, I don't mean users who are experienced with windows and know the various in's and outs of it's mechanics, but rather for people that use word every day.

Actually, come to think of it, they could probably shift to OpenOffice on, say, Ubuntu, pretty easily; and they would probably only have issues with the very same things they would have issues with on other operating systems (driver installation is "scary" to a lot of people, regardless of OS). So in that regard my post was certainly stretched into hyperbole.

I also noted that a common distribution method for Linux software is that it is only given in source; usually with a makefile and instructions. This needs amendment as well, since, as mentioned, there are a vast number of applications available through the package managers of most distributions. This would suite people just fine, however, sometimes they aren't the latest version (keeping a repository up to date is probably no easy task) in which case you would (usually) need to go to the program's sourceforge or similar page, download a tarball (or whatever they packaged it as), extract it, and run the appropriate make command.

This of course doesn't apply to the extreme beginner, who is more then happy with the out of date, but functional version, but rather to the users who have this urge to always have the latest and greatest of all of them- that is, the learning curve goes from getting, say, version 1.4 via the package manager hassle free, or having to download version 1.6 and extract and compile it themselves (and yes, the various graphical tools help in this regard, my linux time is about 50/50 outside of a graphical environment and inside it, which perhaps provides a pear-shaped view of exactly what the "average" user would experience. Anyways, it's not so much how difficult it is but more the increase in complexity from the package manager to getting versions that aren't in the repository.

Inevitably, one of the "standard" (OpenOffice convertee) will need assistance with a specific feature, and will learn that it is a bug, or an issue, or something along those lines (such as being added) in the latest version of OpenOffice; and they may find that that version is not within their package manager; so they have to climb a rather steep learning curve.

[michaewlewis]

I downloaded Linux Mint a few months ago and I must say, it has come a long way. Longer than I ever thought it would.
They packaged all of the media codecs necessary for watching DVDs, listening to MP3s, etc. so you don't have to go searching for them on the internet and then try to figure out how to use it.
It included proprietary drivers from ATI so that I could play 3D linux games on my laptop without custom building/installing/compiling.
I was also able to add my network printer and print from it just by going to the control center and clicking add printer. I didn't have to do any searching or compiling or advanced configuring. I would guess that the total time to install/configure the printer was a whole 20 seconds.
I was also really impressed by how easy it is to search for and install software.

But I still don't think I would switch entirely to linux. I like playing Oblivion and Fallout3 on Windows and don't want to try to mess around with "getting it to work on linux". It should just work..... Also, in my opinion, Microsoft Office is irreplaceable.

[BC_Programmer]

what a coincidence, I just fired up my Installation of Mint that I have on a 8GB key. Bloody impressive. Virtual Machines do <NOT> even come close to giving any of these credit; especially if you like silly effects


Also I retract my statements I've made regarding the package manager, It may not be super ultra user friendly but it's not something a few tweaks couldn't fix, and in my experience they are merely minor annoyances. Power management was even working, and that's usually hit or miss regardless of Operating system (mostly due to hardware differences, though).

Only thing was it was on a Key so it was a tad slow. I even installed one of my favourite older games right to the key- openarena, which was a simple "apt-get install openarena" call. (no idea if it's available via the package manager) worked great too, aside from having to deal with the laptop for input.

Speaking of which, I've no idea how the configuration of the card came to be; It's some Intel chipset, but I was able to use the 3d features (what I'd describe as Aero glass equivalent features, coming from windows, it has it's own desktop composition features I imagine, and they certainly are powerful). On that count, I certainly retract my statements re: driver installation, since I was clearly speaking from my WAAAY older experience with Linux distributions. It has certainly come a long way since then.

Also, as Ghostdog points out in almost every single one of his posts, Python,Perl, as well as a number of other languages can be used cross-platform in a way so that a single application can run on multiple systems. Of course C and C++ can be as well, but programming C and C++ cross-platform is far more effort and requires separate binaries. (or compiler savvy users).

And even better- Mono makes the whole thing an even sweeter deal. I mean the .NET framework for Linux based OS's, not the kissing disease.