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Author Topic: HDD cable connection  (Read 3845 times)

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ziloo

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    HDD cable connection
    « on: May 14, 2010, 01:20:50 PM »
    Hello folks,

    In another thread about wnidows OS, some fellow had made a
    comment about connecting the HDD cable between the mobo and
    the HDD:

    Make sure that the connector that's the furthest from the middle connector is plugged into the port on the motherboard. Make sure that the other end is plugged into the drive - not the middle connector. You'll notice a small notch on each connector that will let you make sure that you are plugging the cable into the drive the right way (not upside down).

    MOTHERBOARD==============NONE=====DRIVE



    Because I didn't want to change the thread topic, I didn't pose
    my question there; but I would like to know the reason for the
    importance of the choice of which connector head?

    Thank you

    ziloo
    « Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 01:40:46 PM by ziloo »

    JJ 3000



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    Re: HDD cable connection
    « Reply #1 on: May 15, 2010, 04:06:58 AM »
    It was the CD drive actually......

    Anyway, the reason for the placement of the drive on a certain connector is that older, parallel ATA drives use a Master/Slave setting. The end connector is for the master and the middle is for the slave.

    The most popular drive interface today is serial ATA (SATA) but a lot of motherboards still have one or more parallel ATA (PATA) controllers. This was the case in the thread that you are inquiring about. The original poster gave his motherboard's model and when I looked it up on the internet, I saw that it had a PATA controller. He had already stated that his hard drives were SATA so the optical drive was the only drive on the computer that used the PATA interface. I had to assume that, as the drive had previously worked that it was set as either cable select or master. So I asked him to make sure that the drive was plugged in properly. It was, so I can only assume that his problem lies with the drive itself or the controller on the motherboard.

    But, to answer your question “What's the reason for the connectors”?
    Well...
    You see, way back in the bad old days of computing (1984), IBM introduced the first personal computer to include BIOS support for hard drives – the IBM PC AT. This new BIOS could support two physical hard drives that could be up to a whopping 504 MB each. At that time however, installing and configuring hard drives could be very tedious and difficult. So, five years later, Western Digital and Compaq came up with a brand new drive interface to address these problems which they submitted to the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) committees. The ANSI committees put out the AT attachment (ATA) standard in March of  '89.

    The ATA standard specified a cable and a built-in controller on the drive. All modern hard drives have a controller on the drive. If you have one lying around pick it up and look. Do you see the circuit board on the bottom of the hard drives case? That's the controller. The controller lets the drive interface with (talk to) your motherboard. Before SATA most people referred to PATA drives as IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics). That circuit board that you see is the Integrated Electronics. The drive and the controller are integrated on a single package. Technically all hard drives are IDE (even drives that use other standards like SCSI) but most people only use the acronym when talking about ATA drives. But wait! Stop. Earlier I said that the problem poster's controller was on his motherboard. How can that be? What  almost all computer techs refer to as the ATA controller is, in fact, just an interface that provides the connection to the rest of the computer. So, even though the real controller is on the hard drive the connection on the motherboard is called the controller. Don't ask me why.


    Early ATA drives connected to the computer using parallel communication. That is: simultaneously sending data signals over several parallel channels (wires). The early PATA cables had forty wires inside of a flat ribbon cable and connected to the drive and controller using a forty pin plug.

    The first ATA standard (there have been many revisions to the original standard over the years) defined that no more than two hard drives can connect to to a single IDE controller on one ribbon cable. Because two drives can be attached to a single cable you need a way to identify each drive on the cable. The ATA Standard identifies two separate drives as “master” and “slave”. You set the drives as master or slave using jumpers (small plastic shunts). If you look at the business end of a PATA hard drive you can see the jumper set on small pins that tell the drive's controller whether it is a master or slave. Later revisions to the original ATA standard improved on the original. ATA-2 added support for non-hard drive devices, like CD drives, and added support for a second controller so that you could have up to four drives as well as adding support for hard drives with larger capacities.(remember, the original standard was developed for the old BIOS that could only support drives up to 504 MB).

    Now, let's skip up to the ATA-5 standard. Each revision had been improving on transfer speeds but with ATA-5 the data speeds were so fast that they had to define a new type of ribbon cable to handle those higher speeds. The new cable still had forty pins but it included an additional forty wires (eighty total) that acted as grounds to improve the cable's ability to handle those higher transfer speeds. Previous versions of the ATA standard didn't specify where the master, slave, or controller were plugged in but ATA-5 defined exactly where they had to be plugged in. They even defined colors. The connector that plugged into the controller was blue, the middle slave connector was gray, and the master connector was black. Almost all ATA-5 standard controllers (the ones on the motherboard) are colored blue also. This standard is also backwards compatible with older drives and controllers. You can plug an older drive into a one of the newer eighty wire cables and it will work just fine.

    ATA-7 defined a completely new way to transmit data, Serial ATA. SATA does away with the entire master/slave concept. There is a point to point connection between the drive and motherboard. Also, with SATA there is no longer a maximum number of drives. SATA improved on a number of PATA's shortcomings. I'd explain more but I'm getting tired of typing. Post back if you want more info. Or you could check out the ANSI subcommittee that's responsible for the ATA standard at http://www.t13.org/
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    ziloo

      Topic Starter


      Beginner

      Re: HDD cable connection
      « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2010, 07:10:55 AM »
      You explanations were monumental  :D!
      Great job JJ... Thank you!

      Now for a PATA setup......if I misplace the connector's end,
      so that the shorter section of the cable is towards the
      mobo connector, and the longer section is towards the
      HDD or DVD drive, would it screw things up? Why?

      ziloo

      patio

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      Re: HDD cable connection
      « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2010, 08:58:22 AM »
      Why would you want to do this ? ?
      " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

      ziloo

        Topic Starter


        Beginner

        Re: HDD cable connection
        « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2010, 10:16:53 AM »
        Not knowing otherwise, I have probably done/misdone this
        many times on my 486 machines and I haven't noticed any
        difference!  Should I be expecting something to happen  :o!

        ziloo

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        Re: HDD cable connection
        « Reply #5 on: May 15, 2010, 12:28:00 PM »
        ...Now for a PATA setup......if I misplace the connector's end, so that the shorter section of the cable is towards the mobo connector, and the longer section is towards the HDD or DVD drive, would it screw things up? Why?
        ...
        Not if only 1 drive is attached.

        Not knowing otherwise, I have probably done/misdone this many times on my 486 machines and I haven't noticed any difference!  Should I be expecting something to happen...
        40-conductor or 80-conductor cable?  On a 486, it's likely ATA-"old".  IDE was 33MHz, then 66MHz, then 100MHz, then, 133MHz.  Faster speeds induce crosstalk between adjacent wires.  80-conductor places ground on every other wire.  Connectors are still 40-pin.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA

        ziloo

          Topic Starter


          Beginner

          Re: HDD cable connection
          « Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 12:40:46 PM »

          > Computer_Commando : Not if only 1 drive is attached.

          I hope I don't sound too inquisitive  :-\, but if I had two drives
          running on one cable with my faulty arrangement, what
          would be the consequences?

          ziloo

          Computer_Commando



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          Re: HDD cable connection
          « Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 12:52:41 PM »
          > Computer_Commando : Not if only 1 drive is attached.
          I hope I don't sound too inquisitive  :-\, but if I had two drives
          running on one cable with my faulty arrangement, what
          would be the consequences?...
          If they work without issues, there would be no consequences.  Generally what happens is the motherboard controller can't figure out who is the Master and who is the Slave.  If it sees 2 masters on 1 cable, the computer will crash.  The HDD activity light will go solid red (or orange).

          However, if it does work, I don't know how many 1's & 0's have to get scrambled before there are consequences.

          ziloo

            Topic Starter


            Beginner

            Re: HDD cable connection
            « Reply #8 on: May 15, 2010, 01:47:03 PM »
            I guess what I don't quite understand is distinction
            between master/slave by motherboard based on
            their relative distance from motherboard on the
            connecting cable  ???

            Motherboard================Slave=======Master

            Motherboard=======Slave================Master


            You see what I am trying to get at?  Why should there be
            such a big difference so as to cause a crash?

            ziloo

            Salmon Trout

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            Re: HDD cable connection
            « Reply #9 on: May 15, 2010, 02:44:59 PM »

            You see what I am trying to get at?  Why should there be
            such a big difference so as to cause a crash?


            high speed data signals are crucially affected by cable length and microsecond delays in timing can destroy/impair performance.

            Computer_Commando



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            Re: HDD cable connection
            « Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 04:31:53 PM »
            You have heard the phrase:  "timing is everything" ?
            This is a perfect example of what that really means.
            The details of signal propagation along a transmission line are far too complex to discuss here.

            Salmon Trout

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            Re: HDD cable connection
            « Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 05:12:31 PM »
            You have heard the phrase:  "timing is everything" ?
            This is a perfect example of what that really means.
            The details of signal propagation along a transmission line are far too complex to discuss here.

            Exactly.

            the relationship between the input signal, \displaystyle x(t), to output signal, \displaystyle y(t), of an LTI system is governed by:



            ziloo

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              Re: HDD cable connection
              « Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 11:38:30 PM »
              Thank you all for your explanations  :).

              ziloo

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              Re: HDD cable connection
              « Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 11:05:09 PM »

              However, if it does work, I don't know how many 1's & 0's have to get scrambled before there are consequences.


              If you connect  the slave to the end connector and the master to the middle connector-

              nothing will happen. the connection method is, pure and simple, a  convention. (at least, pre ATA-133, I believe the 80-conductor cable and the various protocol and standards defined therein make it a bit more strict) neither drive can determine which connector it is in.

              the actual controller on the motherboard (which, is an appropriate term, since we are dealing with multiple drives, each with their own controllers, something needs to manage the communication between the multiple devices and the single motherboard- thus the term controller, which coincidentally was also used for the add-on cards used in older PCs before on-board controllers were placed on the motherboard,  you'd have an ISA card that would interface with your IDE drives. since it was in control of the I.O between all IDE devices and the motherboard the term Controller is nothing if not accurate.)

              The key to knowing why you can connect either one in either spot (as long as you don't have multiples of each) is in the Jumpers.

              When the computer powers on- it of course goes through it's post, where it checks everything. included in this check is the investigation of the ATA devices. the BIOS simply sends a ATA Identify command to the master, and then to the slave (each ATA command has a "channel" which defines wether it is to be accepted by the master or slave device- note that all messages sent from the motherboard to either device is received by both, so both the master and the slave receive two Ident commands. Wether the drives respond to the master or slave id commands depends on the jumper settings, which determines how the integrated electronics are to behave. (essentially, the jumper settings define a "channel" to use.)

              if you have two drives jumpers to master, when the BIOS tries to identify the master drive, it receives two responses, since both drives have been set to the master "channel" (via the jumper settings). What happens depends on how the BIOS is configured to work with this- sometimes it detects whichever response arrives first- other times, it might even accept the second Master response as a response to it's later query for the slave drive configuration. Whatever the case, issues will result, especially as every single ATA command (including reads, writes, and so forth) are sent to both drives. Generally, because of differences in drive geometry, this quickly causes a hang. in practice, the most common result is the for the detection routine to hang, as the two responses are almost never contiguous, but rather "mixed together" so that the BIOS detection routine cannot properly parse it, so it waits forever for a "proper" response.

              The same is true with two drives configured as slave/secondary.

              With regard to using a cable "backwards"... you cannot plug it in backwards anyways. the connection for the motherboard on an ATA-133 (80-conductor) cable is keyed with a plugged hole so that it will only be able to plug into something that has no pin in that location, and drives generally have pins in all locations. For older cables that can be plugged in that way, it doesn't do anything. remember that regardless of wether you plug it in "forwards" or "backwards" the transmission length is the same.

              The main, and deciding factor of why it's not done this way is simply because you cannot reach form the motherboard connection to one of the drives with the short length between the two end connectors.


              I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.