Class Action Law Suit against Obama Health Care

[Salmon Trout]

Maybe we need to stick to technical subjects.

In a way, that was my point.

[Salmon Trout]

And when I say Eastern Europe it is mostly the "stans" that have serious medical problems, in large part to civil wars.

Er, that's Asia. Is this the level of your expertise?

[grandpa_simpson]

It's a small price to pay to fight for the rights of your country, especially given that our soldiers are dying all the time, defending our freedom.

it's not a "point of view" regarding health care, it's entirely redundant. It's like saying that you think watermelons cost too much and reducing their cost is a small price for grocery stores t opay given that soldiers are dying all the time, defending your freedom, which is clearly ridiculous.

I should have worded my statement differently.  The point I was trying to get across was that United States soldiers are fighting for our freedom, and we should try do our part to help preserve that freedom. 

Regarding the debate on whether new health care infringes on that freedom (which can go on for a long time), I happen to be of the opinion that is does.  Whether the war is necessary or not, I happen to believe to an extent, or up to a certain point it was.

I don't want to agrue.  I just wanted to clarify my point.

[Salmon Trout]

I should have worded my statement differently.  The point I was trying to get across was that United States soldiers are fighting for our freedom, and we should try do our part to help preserve that freedom. 

Well, I do want to argue! You are playing with words. Or have let Fox News brainwash you. The "freedom" that the soldiers in Afghanistan are allegedly fighting to preserve is the propaganda type fake "freedom" that American right wingers invented as an excuse to wage war. The "freedom" that Obama's health care plan suposedly attacks is another type of fake idea, namely the American Right's notion of "small government" and light regulation for Wall Street and big corporations. Not equivalent. Not even genuine.

[grandpa_simpson]

You are playing with words.

Playing with words how ?   

[Salmon Trout]

Playing with words how ?   

By using the word "freedom" to mean 2 different things and then proceeding as if you had demonstrated that they meant the same thing. A politician's trick.

[grandpa_simpson]

lol    Trout, I assure you I am not trying to manipulate anyone.   I don't know politics very well, so I can't converse with you on that level too deeply, but the context I was using "freedom" in was in constitutional freedom that the country was founded on.   I did not mean it as two separate types.


edit:  It seems logical at least to me, that our individual liberties will greatly be hindered if we are not protected from international threats..


 

[Salmon Trout]

lol    Trout, I assure you I am not trying to manipulate anyone.   I don't know politics very well, so I can't converse with you on that level too deeply, but the context I was using "freedom" in was in constitutional freedom that the country was founded on.   I did not mean it as two separate types.


edit:  It seems logical at least to me, that our individual liberties will greatly be hindered if we are not protected from international threats..


 

Possibly from genuine threats, but not, I think, from nonexistent ones. Or threats (e.g. from Muslim nations) caused by a foreign policy that gives Israel a free pass to commit murder and run an apartheid state. Also, to make a coherent argument you would have to show (1) What American "freedoms" the Taliban are actually threatening and (2) that there is actually a real possibility of them doing that (occupying the US, installing a dictator, revoking the Constitution).

[grandpa_simpson]

hmm, I wasn't necessarily referring to only the Taliban.  To be more specific, if we had no protection from international threats would all of your individual liberties make you feel better ?  I think I would be scared most of the time or if I had access to recources, preoccupied with protecting my family, and have no time to enjoy individual liberties, virtually making them useless.

Could the constitution even exist without protection from international threats ?  How would we gather into councils and uphold the constitution without our military securing the country ?  If we were invaded, it seems that the constitution would become, at least temporarily void, due to the fact that some people have access to recources much more than others do and those less fortunate would be at the mercy of those who are more fortunate.  Land would be divided up and each area would be sovereign, each with it's own rules..



edit: boy, this thread really took off   

[Broni]

that gives Israel a free pass to commit murder and run an apartheid state

Wow! You must be wearing same model of "reality eyeglasses" as I do
You forgot to mention, that we actually pay for it...
"A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion": http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/245-2008-november/3845-congress-watch-a-conservative-estimate-of-total-direct-us-aid-to-israel-almost-114-billion.html

[BC_Programmer]

if we had no protection from international threats would all of your individual liberties make you feel better ?

What are your tourists protecting by posing as Canadians overseas? Why do they need to do this? Why can't they go to certain countries and proudly show their own nation's flag?

[grandpa_simpson]

What are your tourists protecting by posing as Canadians overseas? Why do they need to do this? Why can't they go to certain countries and proudly show their own nation's flag?

I have no idea, I think I clarified for the most part however, what I meant.

[Mulreay]

Just to go back to the taxes (and where does the money come from). This may have been covered but In England (Britain) we pay 'income tax' and we pay 'NI'. NI is National Income tax. National income tax pays for our public services inc but not limited to the NHS.

The NHS or the 'National health service' is one of the greatest health services in the world. Not only do we Brits get it all for for free (except in taxes) we complain when we don't get a bed in a ward.
Americans have the luxury of given enough treatment to 'just' keep them alive, until you pay.
We Brits complain about everything but we still have the template that every health service in the world should follow and the people want.

[Salmon Trout]

NI is National Income tax. National income tax pays for our public services inc but not limited to the NHS.

Your heart is in the right place about the value of the NHS but just a little thing - When you eventually start paying it, you'll see that it's called "National Insurance". In fact, income tax pays for general government expenditure and "you pay National Insurance contributions to build up your entitlement to certain social security benefits, including the State Pension." - DirectGov

[truenorth]

I am coming late to this party but i do have some knowledge on the subject from having travelled within the U.S. for over 35 years (about 12 weeks each year). From that travel i have been honoured and blessed to have made many close and valued friends (2 of them just departed my home this very morning). It has been my unfortunate experience to witness first hand the traumatic and devastating consequences of the U.S. health care system many times. I could regale this forum with countless events of loss of health,property,wealth,and other quality of life issues brought on by catastrophic health issues to U.S. citizens due to impoverishment from health related issues. Even in some instances premature avoidable death. I suggest that "United States soldiers are fighting for our freedom, and we should try do our part to help preserve that freedom." that freedom ought as a basic human right include freedom from fear of severe economic devastation and unnecessary health deterioration's brought on by inability to "pay" for adequate and timely health care treatment. Unfortunately i believe from my following of the recent health care debate and the subsequent industry lobbying that the bill passed is a long way from adequate to being able to meet the needs of the U.S. population. But for those that would rail against it you shall soon have an opportunity to reverse it in November as the party of "no" has promised they will repeal it. You might want to ask them though "what do they intend to replace it with". I have far too many dear friends in the U.S. to remain silent on this issue. If i am deemed to be sacrificing "freedom" to be concerned about their future health and economic well being then so be it. truenorth