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Author Topic: WikiLeaks  (Read 23566 times)

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reddevilggg



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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 07:33:03 AM »
As long as everyone is respectful of each other and their opinions, I see no harm.

As i've quoted before........

"And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely"

When the over-opinionated get power, then most of these kinda topics get locked. Just glad CBMatt is humble enough to let people actually discuss things that he might not agree with.
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kpac

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 07:38:57 AM »
Quote
Just glad CBMatt is humble enough to let people actually discuss things that he might not agree with.
...which we can safely say is not what everyone here is doing.  ::)

BC_Programmer


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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 08:18:42 AM »
I'm still trying to make sense out of Reply #2. What's Hurricane?

Methinks we might need to rephrase this bit somewhat to either allow some freedom on the subjects or to not allow discussion on the matter at all because it's nearly impossible to talk about religion or politics without expressing bias. 

you just reminded me of that good ol' Pluto thread, and the many spin-offs that occured since some members didn't know that locking a thread wasn't an necessarily invitation to start a new one on the same subject. Good times. Seems it was deleted though... Oh well.

Re: Wikileaks, the only problem I can see is that it would be far to easy to falsify information and submit it, (from what I can tell from some quick searches). Lies are a lot more believable when they have negative connotations for a politician or senator, and people find it "easier" to believe less reliable sources.
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reddevilggg



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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 08:26:41 AM »
Lies are a lot more believable when they have negative connotations for a politician or senator, and people find it "easier" to believe less reliable sources.

That's so true. The 'Conspiracy Bandwagon' must be a good ride. As soon as it rolls though most people jump on, usually without even reading the original documents themselves.

.......but i always think that the best lies are always built around a truth. That's what makes them more believable!
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patio

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 08:49:46 AM »
I can see it now....a sub-Forum under Off Topic....Conspiracies....

                                8)
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moro

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2010, 09:02:10 AM »
Previous speech source. People with similar thought,  Eventually.
And with that. There is a difference opinion.
What if the talk was of a different thought - a North Korean. Arabs. Iran.

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2010, 09:02:58 AM »
Adding to what I noted before; some might defend the content and say that the government(s) wouldn't be trying to get it shut down if they really were lies; and there might be some truth to that. But I think the basic tenet that is used to defend the site's idea is that the entire concept of democracy, which Canada/US/U.K and other countries generally describe themselves as, is that you have a fundamental right to criticize your government, since they are in effect being paid to represent us to the world, and to govern the development of the nation. And a common theme is that the government trying to close it down is "a hint at true corruption" however, at the same time, you can't just have people going around willy nilly, spreading (possibly) lies about political figures; since somebody may garner enough support to overthrow the government and put something even worse into place *cough* Lenin *cough*; The only thing a revolution needs is the peoples support, and what better way to garner that support then to spread half-truths about those who do have power in order to get some of your own.

Of course, I'm not saying that the founders are trying to take over the world or anything; they probably are doing this out of their own spirit of democracy, but as with anything you can take a right too far. After all, while democracy is often the government that promotes freedom, there are still lines that you cannot cross; you aren't free to kill somebody, for example; theft, etc; some may claim these as natural moral barriers, but they have to be defined in black and white; that is, in effect, the sole problem with any form of government; it's impossible to actually put down in the charter of rights and freedoms or the constitution, in black and white, how flexible a right is or exactly how far reaching it is; if a judgement or court tells somebody "no, you've gone to far with that right" it doesn't necessarily mean that we are entering an opressive regime, it could very well mean, that in that instance, despite the fact that the rights/abilities of the person may seem to be black and white, there is a point where you are infringing on others rights; remember that even if they are parts of our government, they are still people protected by our constitutions/charters and have the very same rights as we do; of course, exercising their position to squelch this type of this is somewhat irresponsible, but while any of us "proletariat" can say "oh, I'd never do that myself, I'd be good and honourable" It's really impossible to say what we would truly do in such a situation, especially if we know they are flat out lies and they are being read by millions of people who are simply gobbling it all up. For all we know it's filled with just as many subjective observations and plain old opinions as they are facts; It's a lot easier to fabricate evidence then to find it, especially when your identity is protected. Really all the content has the implicit suggestion that "we got this from a reliable source". If the mainstream news was to report on this, they need more then a pinky-swear that it's legit. (of course, some may suggest at this point that the mainstream media is a puppet of the government, but of course such a claim would require some sort of evidence, something which conspiracies seem to lack except of course in the vague handwavey "well it sort of looks like it might have...." way.)

In fact, in a related manner there is that other topic/poster who was raving about how the Chinese are issueing cyber-terrorism attacks from our printers. Some of their material is from Wikileaks, and from what they quoted being rather inaccurate I rather hope that's not the journalistic quality of all the material found there.

In either case, do I regard these people as criminals or terrorists? I have to say no; specifically, the politicians affected could very well issue defamation of character and other charges against them and take it properly through the courts, as anybody else would have to; abusing their political status to expedite the removal of the information only perpetuates and fuels any number of ludicrous theories, and makes people more likely to believe the content they read there, even that which is questionably reliable. If you read derogatory comments about yourself being read and believed by millions, would you not be angry? Often times, when we are faced with a situation or conflict, we simply react. Sometimes this can lead to empty threats (such as the aforementioned calls for his death) but a immediate reaction is oftentimes an overreaction; if the dog gets in the garbage, some people might say "I'm going to kill you dog!" or something to  that effect, but they never actually mean it. Given the fact that despite our desires to believe otherwise politicians are in fact people it's not to over the top to think they might have a human reaction to a situation.

of course, as I believe has been noted in another post, the main problem with the internet is that there is just as much disinformation as there is information; for the most part, the people posting the disinformation aren't doing so on purpose, but rather regurgitating what they read elsewhere; the more extravagant the claim/lie, the more likely it is to spread. However, often the truth isn't quite as exciting. Needless to say the truth is often neglected in favour of a fantastic fiction.
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Salmon Trout

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 10:32:20 AM »
I will mildly note in passing that I was interested to read about Congressman Peter King, incoming head of the House homeland security committee. He wrote to Hilary Clinton saying that "Wikileaks appears to meet the legal criteria" of a US-designated terrorist organisation. He urged Mrs Clinton to "work with the Swedish Government to determine the means by which Mr Julian Assange can be brought to justice". This, folks, is the same Peter King who in 2008 joined the campaign to achieve bail for Pol Brennan, a convicted IRA terrorist who had escaped from a British prison in 1983. A prison officer died during the breakout. Brennan was serving a 23 year prison sentence for possessing explosives and firearms. He entered the US on a fake passport and lived there illegally until 2008 when he was arrested for immigration violations. When the US Govt moved to extradite Brennan, King weighed in and seemed determined that he should get a fair shake from the authorities. This is to his credit. Doesn't Assange deserve at least the same? Peter King faced much criticism for his IRA links, which he quickly dropped after 9/11.



soybean



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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 12:01:00 PM »
A basic fact seems to be getting ignored here. In the operation of government, nations need to keep some information secret for security reasons.  If such information is leaked, serious damage to the security interests of a country can be the result.  And, the leaking of US Embassy Diplomatic Cables was damaging to US security. 
 
Individuals (military or civilian) who are in positions where they have access to sensitive information normally have a top secret security clearance; otherwise, they would not be placed in such a position.  In the case of sensitive information exposed on wikileaks, I presume someone (the person(s) responsible for the leaked information) will spend some time in prison, according to the laws of that country.

What can be legally done to a journalistic entity, whether newspaper, radio, TV, or Internet, which obtains such information and totally disregards the impact it will have on a nation's security interests, I do not know.  Some of you think such blatant publishing of sensitive information is OK, that it's free speech and democracy.  But, freedom of speech does not mean any person or organization who finds themselves in possession of leaked classified information can simply do as they please with it.  So, to the extent the government can take action against wikileaks for doing this, I favor it doing so.

Allan

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 12:07:24 PM »
Precisely Soybean. Freedom of speech is neither absolute nor all inclusive (don't believe it? Try yelling FIRE in a crowded theater - just make sure you have enough money with you to cover bail).

harry 48



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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2010, 12:23:45 PM »

wikileaks or its owner are not on the F.B.I lists also they are not on the United Nations list , so he is not a terroist and his site is not a terroist organization and for a politication or any one to make a statement like this without proof is out of order , people should be found guilty in a court of law not on the tv or elsewhere. maybe someone can find them on a list .

Quote
my feeling is that the site (and Mr. Assange) should be classified as a terrorist organization and treated as enemy combatants.



http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_by_the_fbi/search-fbipersons?mileage=&zipcode=&getCrimeCategory=terrorism&form.button.search=&b_start:int=0&getSex=Male&CustomSearchableText=&getPossibleCountries=GBR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_by_the_fbi/search-fbipersons?mileage=&zipcode=&getCrimeCategory=terrorism&form.button.search=&b_start:int=0&getSex=Male&CustomSearchableText=&getPossibleCountries=USA

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2010, 12:26:31 PM »
wikileaks or its owner are not on the F.B.I lists also they are not on the United Nations list , so he is not a terroist and his site is not a terroist organization and for a politication or any one to make a statement like this without proof is out of order , people should be found guilty in a court of law not on the tv or elsewhere. maybe someone can find them on a list .

What you think the list gets people added to it magically? What do you think he meant by "classified as a terrorist organization"? he was saying that they should be added to that very list.
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harry 48



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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2010, 12:33:15 PM »
What you think the list gets people added to it magically? What do you think he meant by "classified as a terrorist organization"? he was saying that they should be added to that very list.

and i'm big enough to say sorry and that i did not read it right  :-[ :'(

i wonder if thats the same as the politications are saying  , i must look it up

moro

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 04:32:13 AM »
Q :
now
U.S. Population  = 310,882,999 (Wikileaks is Terrorist attack )
World Population  = 6,886,883,602 (Wikileaks not Terrorist attack )
Piracy: bad work =  U.S. Population  + World Population
so
Do any of you know the solution of the equation
Wikileaks  Terrorist  or not ?
Really, I do not know

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Re: WikiLeaks
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 04:39:04 AM »
What the <*censored*> are you talking about?
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.