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Author Topic: Non-Standard Disc  (Read 10266 times)

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patio

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Re: Non-Standard Disc
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 06:50:14 PM »
I believe BC already illustrated that above.
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

truenorth



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    Re: Non-Standard Disc
    « Reply #16 on: April 22, 2011, 10:05:19 AM »
    Where did i go wrong believing this "They are designed to be read by a Tandy 100 disk Drive, which unfortunately has died" indicated a HARDWARE issue? Hence my suggestions re replacement of hardware. truenorth

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Non-Standard Disc
    « Reply #17 on: April 22, 2011, 10:37:56 AM »
    Where did i go wrong believing this "They are designed to be read by a Tandy 100 disk Drive, which unfortunately has died" indicated a HARDWARE issue? Hence my suggestions re replacement of hardware. truenorth

    No idea. So far they haven't given the reason why they aren't considering replacing the hardware, which is probably the only viable alternative. Seems like they are expecting an "easy out" in the form of a program that allows reading Tandy-100 format disks in a standard floppy drive. I'm not even 100% that a Tandy-100 disk is exactly the same as a "standard" 3.5" diskette (in that it would even fit) All I can find on google are pics of supposed "tandy" disks that don't look like they'd go in properly, and the only utilities I could find were for some sort of 5-1/4" disk, which were insertable into a now standard 5-1/4" drive, but I don't know if they would work with a Tandy-100 diskette. The site is here. The brand name mixing and the fact that absolutely none of my searches actually provide any conclusive information about the relationship between the TRS-80 and the Tandy-100 disk drive (I'm not sure, all the TRS-80 pics I can find show it with a 5-1/4" disk). Also, the tools only work in a pure DOS environment, that is, without windows. If you are extremely lucky you might be able to recover data from a tandy disk, by booting from a DOS boot disk, but you'll either need to use VM software or have two floppy drives (one to run the tool and one for the Tandy diskette).

    If you really need to data, You could send it to a data recovery company, but it depends how much these knitting patterns are worth.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    Barefoot_Tom

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      Re: Non-Standard Disc
      « Reply #18 on: April 22, 2011, 12:42:19 PM »
      <So far they haven't given the reason why they aren't considering replacing <the hardware, which is probably the only viable alternative. Seems like <they are expecting an "easy out" in the form of a program that allows <reading Tandy-100 format disks in a standard floppy drive.

      Unfortunately, your reply indicates that you either have not read, or more probably, have not understood many of the previous posts.

      The reason given for not replacing the hardware is that the disk driver is no longer made, and a second-hand driver goes for upwards of $250. This may seem a trivial amount to you, it does not to me. Your use of the term "easy out" is insulting. Apparently you have no concept of the value of money.

      <I'm not even  100% that a Tandy-100 disk is exactly the same as a <"standard" 3.5" <diskette (in that it would even fit) All I can find on google <are pics of supposed "tandy" disks that don't look like they'd go in <properly, and the only utilities I could find were for some sort of 5-1/4" <disk, which were insertable into a now standard 5-1/4" drive, but I don't <know if they would work with a Tandy-100 diskette. The site is here. The <brand name mixing and the fact that absolutely none of my searches <actually provide any conclusive information about the relationship between <the TRS-80 and the Tandy-100 disk drive (I'm not sure, all the TRS-80 pics <I can find show it with a 5-1/4" disk). Also, the tools only work in a pure <DOS environment, that is, without windows.

      Your failure to find information through Google speaks more to your ineptitude than it  does to a lack of information, Tandy TRS-80 was never mentioned, nor does it have anything to do with the subject in question.

      The disks which fit the Tandy TDD 100 are standard 3.5 inch diskettes. They are formatted differently from disks which are used on PCs, but are physically the same (see previous posts on the specs).

      When the TD 100 is running it will read a disk properly formatted, and transfer the pattern it has read to a knitting machine. There are several programs available which will transfer the patterns from the knitting machine to an IBM PC (DesignaKnit 7 is one of them). If this can be done there is no technical reason why there could not be a program which would read the disks directly when they are inserted in an appropriate  3.5 inch PC disk drive.

      An old saying goes: "Listen twice, speak once." This is particularly appropriate here.
       

      Computer_Commando



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      Re: Non-Standard Disc
      « Reply #19 on: April 22, 2011, 01:07:42 PM »
      ...I'm not even 100% that a Tandy-100 disk is exactly the same as a "standard" 3.5" diskette (in that it would even fit) All I can find on google are pics of supposed "tandy" disks that don't look like they'd go in properly, ...
      Here's the manual (1986) for the Tandy Portable Disk Drive 2:  http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Portable%20Disk%20Drive%202%20Operation%20Manual.pdf
      It sure is a 3.5 in floppy disk.  Diskette is pictured on p.7 of pdf file.
      If only the mechanism is bad and not the electronics, it could be replaced with the mechanism from any 3.5 in FDD.

      http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Portable%20Disk%20Drive%20Command%20Reference.pdf
      Disks are single sided 3.5 inch standard disks
      l PDD1 - 40 tracks 2 sectors 1280 bytes/sector (100K/disk)
      l PDD2 - 80 tracks 2 sectors 1280 bytes/sector (200K/disk treated as two banks of 100k each)
      l Maximum file size = 64k.
      l Maximum number of directory entries (files) is 40 for PDD1 and 80 for PDD2.
      l File names are maximum 24 characters (padded with trailing blanks) although Tandy always used 6 for filename and
      2 for filetype, with period seperator (i.e. XXXXXX.TT)


      BTW, search Google with "Tandy Portable Disk Drive"

      More pics here:  http://sliderule.mraiow.com/wiki/Tandy_Radio_Shack_TRS-80_Model_100/Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive

      Mechanism had rubber drive belt replaced with rubber band:  http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/archive/index.php/t-4878.html
      « Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 01:22:56 PM by Computer_Commando »

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: Non-Standard Disc
      « Reply #20 on: April 22, 2011, 02:19:43 PM »
      The reason given for not replacing the hardware is that the disk driver is no longer made, and a second-hand driver goes for upwards of $250.
      I was fairly certain that you gave a reason to that effect, but looking back on the posts so that I could inform truenorth of that reason resulted in nothing, because you never explicitly stated it. The first mention of price came from TrueNorth's post, and then a slightly cheaper one from Computer_Commando. At no point do you mention that the price is prohibitive, in fact you make no comment about the idea of replacing the hardware, which was probably the cause of Truenorth's confusion in that regard. That, and your posting about a hardware problem in the software section (because you are looking for a software solution, which is a good idea, but no such solution appears to exist, since reading the disks requires more then mere software compatibility)

      Quote
      This may seem a trivial amount to you, it does not to me.
      It's not. I never stated it was. I was stating facts. Yes. It is expensive. But it's likely the only way to get the files off it.
      Quote
      Your use of the term "easy out" is insulting.
      It shouldn't be. An easy out is what everybody wants for any problem, really; It's just unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be one here (a way to read Tandy-formatted disks in a standard floppy drive). If it is possible, it may be possible to emulate a system that normally uses said disk drive, and, if if is compatible with a standard 1.44MB drive it should allow you to read/write them. Of course I imagine the issue in this case is that you will be restricted to the environment of the likely less-capable machine, but from within said VM there will probably be a way to get files and data onto the Host operating system.

      Quote
      Apparently you have no concept of the value of money.
      That is an unneeded assertion. Stating how expensive something is and that it looks like the only way your task will be completed hardly expresses anything about either how much money I make nor does it say anything about how spendthrift I am with that money.



      Quote
      Your failure to find information through Google speaks more to your ineptitude than it  does to a lack of information Tandy TRS-80 was never mentioned, nor does it have anything to do with the subject in question.

      every single query I entered had TRS-80 related material on the front page of results; even searching for "Tandy-100 disk drive" has the first three links going to sites related to the TRS-80; since even the most obscure items of this nature have some sort of following and hobbyist sites dedicated to it, I thus assumed that the Tandy-100 disk drive was designed to be used with the Tandy-100, which was in fact a TRS-80 Model 100 portable computer; since it is designed originally to work with that machine it seems reasonable that other people looking to get data from the disks would in fact refer to them as disks designed for that machine, rather then the drive within which it was used; additionally, I figured that the data most people would be trying to recover was probably made on such machines, and not for things like sewing/knitting  machines, which are more a niche use of the product. And, since such utilities would work for reading the data from the disks used in said niche items, it would have worked in your case. My searches in said case didn't really turn up anything but the utilities on the TRS-80 page, but the TRS-80 and the TRS-80 model 100 had different drives, even though they were really the same machine in different cases (for the most part).

      Quote
      The disks which fit the Tandy TDD 100 are standard 3.5 inch diskettes. They are formatted differently from disks which are used on PCs, but are physically the same (see previous posts on the specs).

      Yes, you said that. Some images I found made me think otherwise, but chances are they were something else. Also, some of the more recent searches turned up what appeared to be pretty much "normal" floppy disks (in that they would, as you noted, fit in a standard 3.5" drive).


      Quote
      There are several programs available which will transfer the patterns from the knitting machine to an IBM PC (DesignaKnit 7 is one of them).
       If this can be done there is no technical reason why there could not be a program which would read the disks directly when they are inserted in an appropriate  3.5 inch PC disk drive.

      Transferring patterns to and from the machine directly via a serial port is completely different then trying to read a disk format that wasn't designed for the drive you want to read it in. So far it appears nobody has devised a way to read Tandy-100 disks using native PC hardware (that is, the standard 3.5" floppy). Clearly it's not a simple task, since there are many devotees to the various systems that use the drive that have looked into it exhaustively, and such a tool would be very useful.

      Therefore, it would seem that unless you plan to develop said software, or know somebody who is- or, if you follow CC's suggestion above and are lucky enough to have the drive only fail mechanically, you may have to either find a way to get a hold of another drive, or use a recovery service, which can get the data off the disks onto a PC-compatible medium for you, for a fee (which may very well exceed the cost of another drive anyway).



      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      Barefoot_Tom

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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #21 on: April 22, 2011, 05:14:49 PM »
        As the one who started this topic, it looks to me like it's time to end it. No one has come up with a commercially available program which can read non-standard disks which is what I'm looking for. and it doesn't look like anyone will.

        I thank all of you for your ideas, and your interest. I've found someone who will repair my disk drive, and I'm going to bite the bullet, and pay for that to happen.

        If anyone is interested in buying a repaired TD100 disk drive for $250, contact me in about 2 months.

        patio

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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #22 on: April 22, 2011, 05:24:47 PM »
        Wow...

        Free volunteer advice gets lambasted...i've officially seen it all.

        Quote
        Theoretically, such a program would not be difficult to write, but I'm not aware of anyone having done so.
        Perhaps you can hone up on your programming skills instead of bashing people trying to assist...
        Best of Luck to you...and Happy knitting.
        " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

        BC_Programmer


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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #23 on: April 22, 2011, 06:07:34 PM »
        No one has come up with a commercially available program which can read non-standard disks which is what I'm looking for.
        Well obviously I can't, me being inept with google and all.
        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        Geek-9pm


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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #24 on: April 22, 2011, 06:08:23 PM »
        Ditto what Patio said.
        Such programs have already been written years ago when floppy drives and disks were the common m media.
        There are many of use that could write such a program. But $250 would not be worth the time.

        BC_Programmer


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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #25 on: April 22, 2011, 06:15:55 PM »
        Ditto what Patio said.
        Such programs have already been written years ago when floppy drives and disks were the common m media.
        There are many of use that could write such a program. But $250 would not be worth the time.

        Well, the way I see it, if it was possible, it would have already been done ages ago. Clearly something is preventing the same hobbyists who write tomes about the inner workings of said floppy, and build controller boards for the PC to use those tandy drives from writing a program to read those floppies in a standard floppy drive, and personally I prefer to defer to that experience and assume that they know what they are doing and that some of them have already well explored the feasability of it, and determined it to either not be possible or not worth their time to figure out (which would be saying a lot, since the hobbyist types are the most likely to come with completely innane solutions to problems like this)

        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        janmade

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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 08:49:33 AM »
        Barefoot Tom - I have a possible answer!

        I too have a non-working FB100. I got the same error messages as you. I disassembled the drive and found that the belt had stretched to the point of falling off. I replaced the belt with a rubber band. The drive now works and I can get the data off the disks.

        Now that this is possible, I will investigate the FB100 emulators that will let me store the files on my PC and transfer them from there to the knitting machine.

        Not sure how long the rubber band will work but there are options that may yield a suitable replacement eg cannibalise from other drives, or 'isellprojectorbelts' who seems to have a good variety and may have something suitable. (Still to investigate this.)

        Hope this helps.

        Computer_Commando



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        Re: Non-Standard Disc
        « Reply #27 on: May 03, 2011, 05:07:37 PM »
        ...I too have a non-working FB100. I got the same error messages as you. I disassembled the drive and found that the belt had stretched to the point of falling off. I replaced the belt with a rubber band. The drive now works and I can get the data off the disks...
        That's the suggestion I offered above.  I guess he didn't take it seriously?