USB Driver help needed (win 98)

[patio]

Try it and report back with the results...

[quaxo]

No worries, Zanet. The issues could very well be related seeing as they both have to do with USB. Perhaps that should be the starting point. Go ahead with what Patio suggest and if that doesn't work, we'll go from there.

[BC_Programmer]

Patio, no, I haven't yet because I have an unofficial autopatcher installed from 2007 that says sp2. I think it's the same one (unless it's been updated). I had a look on that other forum and it says a sp3 version is available. Should I try that or the sp2a one?

The unofficial Windows 98SE Service pack is currently in version 2.1a. (these are all just called the SP, not SP2; and there is no SP3, although there are updates that apply to Windows 98SE with higher Service packs, for example, the MDAC has a SP3 update.

More importantly, the autopatcher only applies official MS updates. the unofficial service pack adds various community created stuff; Most useful in this instance being the mass storage drivers. However, if you are getting blue screens when you plug USB devices in, I'd be more likely to finger the USB controller or configuration issues.

One way to see if it's a software issue is to boot to a Linux LiveCD and see if that has no problem accessing USB.

it said I needed to remove any unknown devices first

this is down to bad instructions. what it means is that you cannot have any USB devices plugged in when you install it; they would appear as unknown devices. Of course so does any unknown device. (I installed it to my laptop which had a few unknown device entries at the time and it worked fine)

MSD update

Call me a nitpicker, but since win98SE doesn't have Mass Storage Class Drivers, it's not an update . (And these aren't official drivers by any metric). That said I have no idea what would cause your odd symptoms. What was the wording used that told you to "install the SanDisk Drivers"?

[zanet]

I'm getting increasingly frustrated by this, ebbing ever closer toward wiping the harddrive. The fact that I can't even get the old modem to work now is even more annoying. I mean it seems to install the drivers but freezes when I try click to access the internet (sorry for going over old ground here, rambling a bit).

The unofficial Windows 98SE Service pack is currently in version 2.1a. (these are all just called the SP, not SP2; and there is no SP3, although there are updates that apply to Windows 98SE with higher Service packs, for example, the MDAC has a SP3 update. More importantly, the autopatcher only applies official MS updates. the unofficial service pack adds various community created stuff; Most useful in this instance being the mass storage drivers. However, if you are getting blue screens when you plug USB devices in, I'd be more likely to finger the USB controller or configuration issues.

The autopatcher I currently have installed was from June 2007. I found it through Google years ago but don't remember the site. What I do know is that it installed other non MS related software such as 7zip, so this all sounds rather familiar. I'm all for giving the one patio mentioned a go but I'm wondering if it might cause conflicts with the current one I have. I mentioned the sp3 (or whatever it's called) because I happened to come across a thread there where they had just completed a newer version.

One way to see if it's a software issue is to boot to a Linux LiveCD and see if that has no problem accessing USB.

Is this something I have to purchase? How would that work? Would I just put the cd in after it booted up or beforehand? I thought linux was an operating system.

it said I needed to remove any unknown devices first
this is down to bad instructions. what it means is that you cannot have any USB devices plugged in when you install it; they would appear as unknown devices. Of course so does any unknown device. (I installed it to my laptop which had a few unknown device entries at the time and it worked fine)

I did try the usb update you recommended but it didn’t work. I removed the unknown device (or so I thought), installed the usb update and rebooted. Upon rebooting the system found the unknown device (but not the drivers) and loaded to the desktop. I plugged in the 2.0 usb drive and got the little green “safe to remove” type icon but when I tried opening any of the drives under My Computer it said they weren’t available, or device not ready. Something like that.

Call me a nitpicker, but since win98SE doesn't have Mass Storage Class Drivers, it's not an update . (And these aren't official drivers by any metric). That said I have no idea what would cause your odd symptoms. What was the wording used that told you to "install the SanDisk Drivers"?

I don’t remember but I’ll try later on today (after I’ve tried the patch suggested) and get back to you. Thanks for the continued support and help guys!

[BC_Programmer]

The autopatcher I currently have installed was from June 2007. I found it through Google years ago but don't remember the site. What I do know is that it installed other non MS related software such as 7zip, so this all sounds rather familiar. I'm all for giving the one patio mentioned a go but I'm wondering if it might cause conflicts with the current one I have. I mentioned the sp3 (or whatever it's called) because I happened to come across a thread there where they had just completed a newer version.

Autopatcher thread: http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/80800-auto-patcher-for-windows-98se-english/

Much like the other Autopatchers, mine for Windows 98 has what I consider to be essential add-ons like Mozilla Firefox, 7-Zip, and others

So I guess it does have third party stuff. the actual tool seems to be a batch file that applies a bunch of win98 hotfixes from MS. Some of them change the USB driver files. For the record I didn't use any sort of autopatcher or windows update to change the files on my laptop from whatever it got from the Win98 CD.

Is this something I have to purchase? How would that work? Would I just put the cd in after it booted up or beforehand? I thought linux was an operating system.

Linux is an operating system, but it is free. You can burn a disc, boot from it, and get a working OS environment. Then plug in a USB drive and see if it is detected. My personal favourite is Linux Mint. Only downside is the ISO files are rather hefty, also oftentimes when this route is suggested there are snags just getting the ISO burned. (I recall one other topic that went for 3 pages trying to simply burn the Disc). The basic idea is that booting from the CD it won't use or change anything on the hard drive, so if the USB works, we know it's a problem with the windows installation, and it if doesn't work we know we've been barking at a mailman statue. Also, if the Live CD works, you can use that to copy the data off the computer's hard drive to the flash drive.

Also, re the USB update. the one I linked I've only used from a Virtual Machine; my laptop that runs win98 has the unofficial Service Pack that Patio links installed, and I've had no troubles with USB flash drives with it.

Since you are trying to back-up data from the Win98 machine, you could try alternate methods; use or install a CD or DVD burner on the machine and burn the data rather than trying to use a flash drive, add a second hard drive to the machine and copy data to that, then you could either install that drive into another machine or install it into a USB enclosure (which makes a "standard" hard drive essentially a USB drive) and copy data onto a more modern machine; or you could take the drive out of the win98 machine and install it into another machine and copy the data that way.

If you ask me it's looking more and more like this is the sort of issue that can only be reliably solved with a fresh install of windows. Of course since that would wipe everything on the drive and the only reason you want to access it is to copy the data off it, that sort of defeats the purpose.

[zanet]

Okay, I installed the patch patio recommended but although it installed properly I got numerous prompts saying the files I had on my system were newer than the ones being installed, did I want to keep them etc, so I  left the newer versions. Then I reinstalled your nusb patch again (leaving the reserved device) alone and tried the sandisk flash drive but again, no joy. It's weird because it says the device is working in device manager but no drive is available under My Computer. I get no errors / messages now.

I tried a couple of other non-name brand flash drives after (corporate promo ones a friend gave me) and they worked perfectly. Now, I assume these are "newer" 2.0 drives but I was told unless it says "enhanced" in device manager it's not 2.0. Is this correct? I went into my local store today and bought another drive (made by Verbatim) but when I was looking on the specs on the back of the packaging it said only compatible with 2000+ (others said xp+). I didn't think the OS would have any bearing if you had the right drivers (provided it was 2.0). If that's the case it makes sense why the sandisk works with my 2000 machine but not 98se.

Edit: After looking around on the autopatcher site I came across this patch:

"Unofficial USB 2.0 WDM Drivers USBCCGP.SYS 5.1.2600.5512, USBEHCI.SYS 5.0.2195.6882, USBHUB20.SYS 4.90.3000.11, USBPORT.SYS 5.0.2195.5652, USBSTOR.SYS 5.0.2195.6773 + WDMSTUB.SYS 5.0.0.6 for Windows 98 SE/ME: USB20DRV [270 KB, English]. Windows 98 SE requires NEWest Native USB (NUSB) already installed!"

http://www.mdgx.com/web.htm#AP98 Should I try this as well?
 

Linux is an operating system, but it is free. You can burn a disc, boot from it, and get a working OS environment. Then plug in a USB drive and see if it is detected. My personal favourite is Linux Mint.

That sounds like a really good way to find out what is causing this. I might try that out (providing it isn't too hard).

Edit: After looking around on the site would it not be easier (for me at least) to just buy the cd? Is this the one you meant?
http://on-disk.com/product_reviews.php/manufacturers_id/70/products_id/1293

If not, can you give me a direct link to the download (or where I can purchase the cd)?

For the record I didn't use any sort of autopatcher or windows update to change the files on my laptop from whatever it got from the Win98 CD.

The link you gave me are for patches in December 2007 and 2008, which are newer than the one patio gave me and the one I already had, so I'll try those too.

Since you are trying to back-up data from the Win98 machine, you could try alternate methods; use or install a CD or DVD burner on the machine and burn the data rather than trying to use a flash drive, add a second hard drive to the machine and copy data to that, then you could either install that drive into another machine or install it into a USB enclosure (which makes a "standard" hard drive essentially a USB drive) and copy data onto a more modern machine; or you could take the drive out of the win98 machine and install it into another machine and copy the data that way.

Burning is an option but with 25g worth of data it would take a while. I didn't think you could take an old harddrive and put it in the newer machine because of compatibility issues with a newer motherboard. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm learning as I go along here (and from what I glean off Google). Is it possible to get an old (or new) external harddrive and transfer the data that way?

[BC_Programmer]

Okay, I installed the patch patio recommended but although it installed properly I got numerous prompts saying the files I had on my system were newer than the ones being installed, did I want to keep them etc, so I  left the newer versions. Then I reinstalled your nusb patch again (leaving the reserved device) alone and tried the sandisk flash drive but again, no joy. It's weird because it says the device is working in device manager but no drive is available under My Computer. I get no errors / messages now.

That prompt ("the file being installed is older than the file being replaced", or something to that effect) was one of the biggest User Interface blunders ever made by anybody at any point in time, if you ask me. The files installed work as a set- what you end up with from those prompts and not replacing files is a mishmash of files that weren't tested together. The original misconception that led to the creation of that dialog would be the idea that if a file is newer, it is automatically better. What wasn't considered was the fact that these newer components that were already present would be "mixed" with the "older" files that are also installed but for which there is no existing file. This can lead to odd issues. Though I cannot say for certain I suspect the version mismatches could be one of the reasons the drive isn't showing up.

If not, can you give me a direct link to the download (or where I can purchase the cd)?

Linux Mint CD ISO file.

I tried a couple of other non-name brand flash drives after (corporate promo ones a friend gave me) and they worked perfectly. Now, I assume these are "newer" 2.0 drives but I was told unless it says "enhanced" in device manager it's not 2.0. Is this correct? I went into my local store today and bought another drive (made by Verbatim) but when I was looking on the specs on the back of the packaging it said only compatible with 2000+ (others said xp+). I didn't think the OS would have any bearing if you had the right drivers (provided it was 2.0). If that's the case it makes sense why the sandisk works with my 2000 machine but not 98se.

USB 2.0 is fully backward compatible with USB 1.1. All USB 1.1 devices will work in USB 2.0 slots and all USB 2.0 devices work in USB 1.1 slots. (part of the USB 2.0 specification is the requirement that the device work with USB 1.1. The technical difference lies on the host controller (which in your case- and for most computers- would be the motherboard). Essentially, USB 1.1 has two "modes" low speed and Full Speed. USB 2.0 adds a High-Speed mode. Each of these uses a different chip or discrete circuitry. a USB 2.0 supporting controller will route USB 2.0 supporting devices using the high-speed circuitry, whereas 1.1 will be made to use full speed. If you connect a USB 2.0 device to a USB 1.1 host controller, it will be connected via the Full Speed circuitry, since there is no "faster" circuitry. The device will operate slower but it will work. It's easy to see why googling would lead to confusion on this issue, since there seems to be a lot of misinformation on the subject; some people claim that USB 1.1 devices won't work with 2.0 controllers, others claim the reverse; when in fact both are false.

The Drive specifications will usually say XP/2000 and later because they don't provide a Windows 98SE driver and under normal conditions, since windows 98SE doesn't come with generic Mass Storage drivers, you would need specific drivers for every flash drive to use them. Since the patches we are exploring here are designed to provide a Generic Class driver for any Mass Storage Device, the OS requirements become somewhat moot. Almost all of my flash drives (two SanDisk Cruzer 8GB Micro's, two 8GB Kingston traveldrives, a 2GB traveldrive, a 512MB Memorex, and a 512 and 256MB Cruzer Mini) work in my Win98SE laptop, and some of them state "windows XP or later" as part of the requirements.

"Unofficial USB 2.0 WDM Drivers USBCCGP.SYS 5.1.2600.5512, USBEHCI.SYS 5.0.2195.6882, USBHUB20.SYS 4.90.3000.11, USBPORT.SYS 5.0.2195.5652, USBSTOR.SYS 5.0.2195.6773 + WDMSTUB.SYS 5.0.0.6 for Windows 98 SE/ME: USB20DRV [270 KB, English]. Windows 98 SE requires NEWest Native USB (NUSB) already installed!"

You don't have USB 2.0; your USB ports and hub are 1.1; this won't actually change anything- I doubt it would make your computer explode either, and I'm not against being proven wrong . (I mean being wrong about the patch fixing things, not about the computer exploding)

I didn't think you could take an old harddrive and put it in the newer machine because of compatibility issues with a newer motherboard.

No. You can. the only problem would be if the new computer uses SATA and the old is an IDE (PATA) drive, but the only thing you would need is a ATA ribbon cable (assuming there wasn't one in there). Another example, being if I was to move a hard drive from one of my older computers to my current desktop machine; the older machines use PATA drives, whereas my newer computer uses SATA. However it also has a PATA controller; which I am currently using for the DVD Writer. I could connect a IDE drive on that cable. Note there are some things to bear in mind if you do this, particularly if a device is using PATA on the machine the drive is being moved to.

SATA uses thinner connectors, that are usually red. One connector to the motherboard- one to the drive. Simple. the earlier PATA interface used ribbon cables with 3 connectors; one connected to the motherboard, and the other two connected to drives. However in order to make sure the computer could figure out which was which, the drives had to agree on a "channel"- The first is usually referred to as the "master" and the second as the "slave". Basically, with IDE drives:

-The drive is instructed whether it is a master or slave by moving jumpers on the drive, usually on it's rear near the other connectors.
-when connecting one device, set it as Master.
-when connecting two, set one as master and one as slave. Setting both as Master or both as Slave won't cause any explosions or pyrotechnics, but the drives won't be detected properly.
-there is also Cable Select which chooses automatically, but discussing it's fiobles could lead me to write a book, heh.


On that note, I had a 43MB (yes MB) hard drive originally from a 286 hooked up to a Pentium 4 as well as used in an enclosure a few times without problems. I eventually took it apart and made some completely unfashionable coasters from the drive platters. Anyway all the above makes it sound complicated- it isn't, though, I'm just being far too thorough. . For a PATA external enclosure, you would just need to make sure the drive is set to master.

[zanet]

Firstly, I appreciate "thorough". As long as you're okay with taking the time to explain these things you'll get no complaints from me. Thanks for the further newbie-friendly clarification on how usb 1.1 and 2 works as well.

I've had a mixed bag, results-wise. The USB flash drive problem appears to be solved but for some reason the USB DSL modem problem remains a mystery. Now, I don't know if I should continue talking about the modem problem here or in the other thread. Quaxo suggested I lump them together here (unless I misunderstood) because both sounded like a driver problem.

In short, what I've done since my last post is to maxllf, repartition and reformat my pc. I installed a fresh copy of 98se, along with the mobo, sound and video card drivers. Then I installed patio's patch and the nusb patch. That seems to have done the trick for the flash drives but not the modem. I installed the modem software (drivers etc provided on the ISP installation cd), plugged in the usb modem, but it's just not installing properly despite saying it's been successfully installed each time. Even when it was installed properly (before the format) it kept freezing when attempting to use it to connect to the internet. It freezes now too.

I tried downloading Linux Mint but I'm having problems getting it to work. Do I have to use the ISO or can I order the cd from them instead (maybe this is moot since the flash drives work)? Since the modem works perfectly on my other old win 2000 laptop I'm considering installing 2000 on the PC to see if that somehow fixes the problem. I have a few oddball questions for those in the know. If I were to try using 2000, can I just install it over 98se or should I format and do a clean installation? Is there an autopatcher for 2000 that includes sp4 like what 98 has? Is it possible to take the installed modem files from my laptop and somehow "install" / add them to my 98 pc instead?

With my somewhat limited knowledge this problem is down to one of three things, 1) either some virus deleted / corrupted some files in the mobo / usb (and then ones I installed didn't include all of them) 2) the unknown pci adapter is causing a problem or the hardware no longer supports 98se (less likely since it was fine a while ago). If this sounds like gibberish to the tech saavy, my apologies. I'm just throwing stuff out there to see what people think.

[BC_Programmer]

In short, what I've done since my last post is to maxllf, repartition and reformat my pc. I installed a fresh copy of 98se, along with the mobo, sound and video card drivers. Then I installed patio's patch and the nusb patch. That seems to have done the trick for the flash drives but not the modem. I installed the modem software (drivers etc provided on the ISP installation cd), plugged in the usb modem, but it's just not installing properly despite saying it's been successfully installed each time. Even when it was installed properly (before the format) it kept freezing when attempting to use it to connect to the internet. It freezes now too.

Well... at least you got somewhere I suppose. I had to look up what m; axllf was- and this is completely unrelated to your issue- but Low Level Format is not usually a good idea with IDE drives; that is, going back to the late 80's. Before that, it was usually necessary to low level format the ESDI and ST-506 Drives. With ATA (IDE) drives, however, this isn't necessary since they use zoned-bit recording, which uses a method that basically makes the sector markings on the disk unerasable. Since Low-Level formatting essentially "marks out" where the sectors are on the disks, (for earlier technologies), it doesn't really do anything nowadays. It doesn't hurt anything as far as I understand, just thought I'd mention that. (I've never Low Level Formatted a drive myself; usually in the case of win 9x I would just format /s the drive from a boot floppy.

I tried downloading Linux Mint but I'm having problems getting it to work. Do I have to use the ISO or can I order the cd from them instead (maybe this is moot since the flash drives work)?

You can use either; the contents of the disc you receive will be the exact same as the contents of the ISO. the ISO file would have to be burned as is. a Common mistake is to burn the ISO file to the disc as a file- so when viewing the contents of the disc all you see is that ISO file. an ISO file as you may already know is essentially an Image of the disc itself; software that supports burning ISO files can transfer that "image" to a disc. (I use IMGBurn). At this point I don't think there is much use using it, since you have USB working it probably isn't hardware, which was what my idea to use it was intended to determine.

Since the modem works perfectly on my other old win 2000 laptop I'm considering installing 2000 on the PC to see if that somehow fixes the problem. I have a few oddball questions for those in the know. If I were to try using 2000, can I just install it over 98se or should I format and do a clean installation? Is there an autopatcher for 2000 that includes sp4 like what 98 has? Is it possible to take the installed modem files from my laptop and somehow "install" / add them to my 98 pc instead?

sp4 is that "autopatcher"... it includes all the updates released for W2K up to that point. Windows 98 and 2000 use completely separate kernel architectures, so drivers do not work between them.


With my somewhat limited knowledge this problem is down to one of three things, 1) either some virus deleted / corrupted some files in the mobo / usb (and then ones I installed didn't include all of them) 2) the unknown pci adapter is causing a problem or the hardware no longer supports 98se (less likely since it was fine a while ago).
[/quote]

Neither the USB hardware nor the motherboard have files on them that can be deleted, so we can safely rule out the first theory. The second one is plausible but I've worked on/owned several machines that have a perpetual unknown device (for one reason or another) and that never affected the machine's ability to work with other components.

You could check your Modem vendor's website (usually the ISP will have it too) for any possible updated versions.

Another idea is to use a "real" Ethernet adapter, rather than USB. Network cards can be gotten for fairly cheap these days; a few years ago I picked up a gigabit card for 14 dollars; in a similar time frame I got a standard 10/100 ethernet card for I think 6 dollars new.  For desktop machines these install into expansion slots in your computer (in fact, you may already have one installed, too- it might be the unknown device) and provide connections on the rear. In this case, it provides a ethernet connection. This would sidestep the problem, and be helpful too since the Ethernet card would be capable of it's full speed, rather than being throttled by transfer limitations of USB.

EDIT: based on your other thread the unknown device is likely to be an ethernet card.

[zanet]

Since Low-Level formatting essentially "marks out" where the sectors are on the disks, (for earlier technologies), it doesn't really do anything nowadays. It doesn't hurt anything as far as I understand, just thought I'd mention that. (I've never Low Level Formatted a drive myself; usually in the case of win 9x I would just format /s the drive from a boot floppy.

Very interesting. It was actually recommended to me that I low level format to ensure the hard drive was completely wiped. I'm at the mercy of Google and people that (supposedly) know about these things. It seemed to make sense at the time. We live and learn.

A Common mistake is to burn the ISO file to the disc as a file. At this point I don't think there is much use using it, since you have USB working it probably isn't hardware, which was what my idea to use it was intended to determine.

I'd like to give it a go all the same since it sounds like a good way of further ruling out a hardware problem. I'll get IMGBurn and try that. Once I have the cd how do I use it? I think you explained this in an earlier post but I can't find it. Do I install the software from the cd or boot up using the cd but without installing? I think it was the latter but I want to make sure.

sp4 is that "autopatcher"... it includes all the updates released for W2K up to that point. Windows 98 and 2000 use completely separate kernel architectures, so drivers do not work between them.

Do you know where I can get the SP and burn it to a cd? I assume the SP doesn't come with the OS CD and windows update isn't an option (even if they still provide updates for 2000) because I'd need the PC in question to be connected to the net in order to download / autoinstall the SP.

1) either some virus deleted / corrupted some files in the mobo / usb (and then ones I installed didn't include all of them) 2) the unknown pci adapter is causing a problem or the hardware no longer supports 98se (less likely since it was fine a while ago).

Neither the USB hardware nor the motherboard have files on them that can be deleted, so we can safely rule out the first theory. The second one is plausible but I've worked on/owned several machines that have a perpetual unknown device (for one reason or another) and that never affected the machine's ability to work with other components.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well. What I meant in point 1 was before I had any connection / usb modem problems I had never formatted before, so all the necessary drivers for the mobo were correctly installed. If a virus somehow deleted / corrupted certain files that were needed to connect to the net maybe that caused the problem in the first place. Once I formatted that should have removed any virus but I'm not sure if I've successfully managed to install all the drivers the mobo and other devices need. I have the mobo disk and a 3rd party chipset disk (provided by the now defunct company that custom built this pc) but I pretty much just winged it by installing what I thought were the right drivers.

The second point is another stab in the dark because I can't even remember if an unknown device was listed in device manager when everything was working right / before things hit the fan. From what you said it may have nothing to do with the connection problem. It'd be my luck though if I've gone through all this and it was all caused by a missing file.

You could check your Modem vendor's website (usually the ISP will have it too) for any possible updated versions.

Unfortunately, the vendor were bought out by another company called Technicolor and they don't provide any support for old hardware. The drivers I've found on the net don't work either. The fact that the drivers on the ISP cd was enough to have it working on the 2000 machine (along with the modem working fine on my 98se PC, until a while ago) suggests (to me at least) that I shouldn't need any other drivers. That said, if I found the right ones I'd certainly try.

As for the ISP / phone company, they stopped offering this package years ago and now only provide a wireless router / hub. I'm guessing that isn't going to work with a 10 year old 98se pc. There is no software support for the old usb modem, although I've been informed by two different people at my ISP that the old hardware should still work (which it does, just not on my 98se machine).

Another idea is to use a "real" Ethernet adapter, rather than USB. Network cards can be gotten for fairly cheap these days. EDIT: based on your other thread the unknown device is likely to be an ethernet card.

I took the pc to a local computer repair store and the guy said he couldn't find any PCI network card (let alone find the drivers needed for it), so either he doesn't know what he's talking about or I have a "ghost" card that's still being found by the system, despite formatting.

Note to Mods (and everyone helping): If you want me to mark this as solved and start a new topic, I'm more than happy to do so. I'm not trying to drag this out here. I've just stuck with this thread because all the problems I've had seem to be linked (with the exception of the format thread).

[BC_Programmer]

I'd like to give it a go all the same since it sounds like a good way of further ruling out a hardware problem. I'll get IMGBurn and try that. Once I have the cd how do I use it? I think you explained this in an earlier post but I can't find it. Do I install the software from the cd or boot up using the cd but without installing? I think it was the latter but I want to make sure.

If you burn it properly, it should boot up. Then there should be an option to "try it without installing" or something to that accord. Actually, this could be helpful as well, since there are several useful utilities that can be used to gather information about the machine.

Do you know where I can get the SP and burn it to a cd? I assume the SP doesn't come with the OS CD and windows update isn't an option (even if they still provide updates for 2000) because I'd need the PC in question to be connected to the net in order to download / autoinstall the SP.

SP4 can be downloaded from MS. This is the offline/network installer.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well. What I meant in point 1 was before I had any connection / usb modem problems I had never formatted before, so all the necessary drivers for the mobo were correctly installed. If a virus somehow deleted / corrupted certain files that were needed to connect to the net maybe that caused the problem in the first place.

Even in the heydey of Windows 98/98SE, viruses that deleted drivers and did other malicious activities were few and far between. If you ask me far too many people blame mysterious activity, or things they don't understand on "viruses", but the fact is that the "fear" of having malware and viruses are far more dangerous (in my opinion) than malware or viruses themselves.

The second point is another stab in the dark because I can't even remember if an unknown device was listed in device manager when everything was working right / before things hit the fan. From what you said it may have nothing to do with the connection problem. It'd be my luck though if I've gone through all this and it was all caused by a missing file.

Unfortunately, the vendor were bought out by another company called Technicolor and they don't provide any support for old hardware. The drivers I've found on the net don't work either. The fact that the drivers on the ISP cd was enough to have it working on the 2000 machine (along with the modem working fine on my 98se PC, until a while ago) suggests (to me at least) that I shouldn't need any other drivers. That said, if I found the right ones I'd certainly try.

I took the pc to a local computer repair store and the guy said he couldn't find any PCI network card (let alone find the drivers needed for it), so either he doesn't know what he's talking about or I have a "ghost" card that's still being found by the system, despite formatting.

Well, I can't see the machine myself so I can't say whether he's wrong or not. According to the specification sheet it doesn't have a network adapter on-board, but it's seeing something. It might be the USB adapter, itself.

Speaking from my own experience, I avoid using USB connections for anything network related. Why? Because it's a pain in the *censored*. Networking is complicated enough having to deal with routers and switches and IP addresses and all that crap without the additional complication of USB standing in between!

Regarding the "conflicts" and other ideas,  I think you might be looking too deep, if that makes sense. You know that thing where a person looks up a disease or symptom and assumes they have some terrible disease? It's sort of like that. Well, without the assumption, you're just considering them as options. On that note, things like resource conflicts are extremely unlikely. Your Audio is a PCI device that is part of the motherboard. The Sound Blaster 16 and other older ISA Sound Cards were a common source of issues with resource conflicts, but PCI components are automatically managed by the system. It's certainly possible, but consider it this way- if you get a cough do you ever consider the possibility that it's Heart Failure? That's sort of what I mean. In that case, it's possible, but so unlikely as to not even be worth unless something else comes up to point you in that direction. There was the message that you got stating a resource conflict, but without further details, it would be silly to start making assumptions about what was conflicting with what,(sometimes there isn't even a conflict when it complains about that, too). I'm not saying this as an insult to your reasoning of course, they certainly are possibilities, but we should go where the information leads us. In this case, there was only one device that stated a resource conflict, whereas in a true resource conflict situation, both devices involved in the conflict would have problems (and neither would work, for that matter).

Also, you don't need a tech to see if you have an ethernet card in your machine, so you can double-check his "findings"- you don't even need to open it up. Just inspect the rear of the case. Here is one of my other machines[/img]. Note that the "holes" would be covered up by metal inserts but I didn't bother last time I dealt with this machine. Anyway, the middle one in this image is the Network Card. Basically you are looking for the connector shown there. (It's the same one on the USB adapter from what I can tell). If you find one, then the machine has a network card and you should avoid the aforementioned technician. Otherwise, it doesn't. In the former case we could proceed to help in getting the accurate information about that adapter. In the latter case it is probably just being misidentified.

I have the mobo disk and a 3rd party chipset disk (provided by the now defunct company that custom built this pc)

The motherboard disk is the chipset driver disk, so I'm not sure why they would provide a separate disk. On the otherhand, they did go defunct, so maybe that answers my question 


Having only just this post taken a closer look at the specifications, it seems that machine is vastly overpowered for Windows 98SE. Windows 2000 would be an all-around better bet. XP would work well too, depending on the amount of installed memory. XP could very well eliminate all the issues and be able to configure everything with built-in drivers, too. (but don't hold me to it).

[zanet]

I took the pc to a local computer repair store and the guy said he couldn't find any PCI network card (let alone find the drivers needed for it), so either he doesn't know what he's talking about or I have a "ghost" card that's still being found by the system, despite formatting.

Well, I can't see the machine myself so I can't say whether he's wrong or not. According to the specification sheet it doesn't have a network adapter on-board, but it's seeing something. It might be the USB adapter, itself.

Sorry, what did you mean by specification sheet?

Regarding the "conflicts" and other ideas,  I think you might be looking too deep, if that makes sense. You know that thing where a person looks up a disease or symptom and assumes they have some terrible disease? It's sort of like that. Well, without the assumption, you're just considering them as options. On that note, things like resource conflicts are extremely unlikely. Your Audio is a PCI device that is part of the motherboard. The Sound Blaster 16 and other older ISA Sound Cards were a common source of issues with resource conflicts, but PCI components are automatically managed by the system. It's certainly possible, but consider it this way- if you get a cough do you ever consider the possibility that it's Heart Failure? That's sort of what I mean. In that case, it's possible, but so unlikely as to not even be worth unless something else comes up to point you in that direction. There was the message that you got stating a resource conflict, but without further details, it would be silly to start making assumptions about what was conflicting with what, (sometimes there isn't even a conflict when it complains about that, too). I'm not saying this as an insult to your reasoning of course, they certainly are possibilities, but we should go where the information leads us. In this case, there was only one device that stated a resource conflict, whereas in a true resource conflict situation, both devices involved in the conflict would have problems (and neither would work, for that matter).

I get what you're saying. Part of this is me being stubborn I guess and scraping the barrel. It's completely mystifying because it just decided to stop working on the 98se machine and there really is no reason why that should have happened. That along with the bad installs and the freezing (pre and post format) just makes me even more determined to find out what caused this and how to fix it. It's not like the system went into complete meltdown because of a nasty virus or some kind of software / hardware failure.

Also, you don't need a tech to see if you have an ethernet card in your machine, so you can double-check his "findings"- you don't even need to open it up. Just inspect the rear of the case. Here is one of my other machines

Could you possibly circle or mark the area you're talking about? I just want to be certain I know what I'm looking for. I love the jpg name by the way. Is "rump" a technical term for computers or were you just being humorous?

I have the mobo disk and a 3rd party chipset disk (provided by the now defunct company that custom built this pc)

The motherboard disk is the chipset driver disk, so I'm not sure why they would provide a separate disk. On the otherhand, they did go defunct, so maybe that answers my question

I'm not sure either and since they're long gone (and I've never had to use the disks) I guess we'll never know. Here's the interesting part though (at least to me). On the mobo disk it has 3 categories; chipset, network and misc. Chipset was the one I installed but the other two are greyed out. I have no idea why that is but I have a feeling if the network section was available (or I knew what to look for in the cd contents) I could install those drivers and fix the problem (at least the unknown device). That said, I tried the "reinstall drivers" / "update drivers" option in device manager using both disks but it didn't find anything.

Having only just this post taken a closer look at the specifications, it seems that machine is vastly overpowered for Windows 98SE. Windows 2000 would be an all-around better bet. XP would work well too, depending on the amount of installed memory. XP could very well eliminate all the issues and be able to configure everything with built-in drivers, too. (but don't hold me to it).

What specs are you referring to? I may have mentioned the specs before but I don't recall. As for other operating systems, I was going to try 2000 but I need to get the cd first. I have an old copy of Nortons Ghost and was wondering if I should just copy everything from the laptop to the pc. I've never done that before, so I'm not sure what I need with regards to cables etc. I just thought since the laptop has most of the updates already on it, I'd be able to cheat a little and save myself some time.

[BC_Programmer]

Sorry, what did you mean by specification sheet?

This.

I get what you're saying. Part of this is me being stubborn I guess and scraping the barrel. It's completely mystifying because it just decided to stop working on the 98se machine and there really is no reason why that should have happened. That along with the bad installs and the freezing (pre and post format) just makes me even more determined to find out what caused this and how to fix it. It's not like the system went into complete meltdown because of a nasty virus or some kind of software / hardware failure.

It's also possible that the USB device is broken too. (I don't remember if you mentioned testing it on another machine since).

Could you possibly circle or mark the area you're talking about? I just want to be certain I know what I'm looking for. I love the jpg name by the way. Is "rump" a technical term for computers or were you just being humorous?

there you are. It's not technical, "back of the computer" just seems so terribly droll to me.

the network drivers might be in a folder on the disk. Usually it would be well labelled. However I think that they are greyed out because it sees your motherboard is not a model with a on-board LAN. (the drivers would be useless for a separate card).

What specs are you referring to?

The result I found on google from the motherboard information you mentioned in reply #14. It might nor be accurate but it's capabilities are rather far in excess of what Windows 98SE was able to amicably take advantage of.

I have an old copy of Nortons Ghost and was wondering if I should just copy everything from the laptop to the pc. I've never done that before, so I'm not sure what I need with regards to cables etc. I just thought since the laptop has most of the updates already on it, I'd be able to cheat a little and save myself some time.

No, that won't work, unfortunately.

[zanet]

It's also possible that the USB device is broken too. (I don't remember if you mentioned testing it on another machine since).

I've tested it with the 2000 laptop several times since this hit the fan with my 98se system and it works perfectly.

there you are. It's not technical, "back of the computer" just seems so terribly droll to me.

Thanks for that. I have one card with 2 of them (are they referred to as ports, slots or something else?). I decided to remove the side panel to get a better look at what was there and it looks like 3 cards are installed. I assume video, sound and what I thought was the modem card. Is an ethernet card and modem one and the same? I've never used those little slots, so I'm not even sure they work.

the network drivers might be in a folder on the disk. Usually it would be well labelled. However I think that they are greyed out because it sees your motherboard is not a model with a on-board LAN. (the drivers would be useless for a separate card).

I had a look at the contents of the cd and it's all gibberish to me (just letters and numbers).

The result I found on google from the motherboard information you mentioned in reply #14. It might nor be accurate but it's capabilities are rather far in excess of what Windows 98SE was able to amicably take advantage of.

I see. Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. All I can say is it's been pretty solid for the time I've had it.

It was suggested that I look in the registry to get the hex code (?) for the unknown adapter, so I had a look and found an "unknown" device with the code: ven_1813&dev_4100&subsys_8a0016ef&rev_01. I went to a site that lists PCI adapters and I think I found it http://vendev.org/pci/ven/1813. The thing is it says it's the ham modem and I've already installed the drivers for that (it says it works in device manager). The site didn't provide the drivers, so I couldn't try them anyway (heck, for all I know they could the same as what's on the modem cd).

When I selected "view devices by connection" in device manager it showed the following under PCI Bus:

Intel 82801BA PCI Bridge 244E
- Creative Multimedia Interface
- Creative SB Live Series
- Intel Ham Plus V90 Modem
- PCI Network Controller (unknown device)

As it stands I'm going to try reformatting, install 2000 and see if that works (unless I find those drivers and it all magically starts working again). Are there any reputable driver sites out there?

[BC_Programmer]

Thanks for that. I have one card with 2 of them (are they referred to as ports, slots or something else?). I decided to remove the side panel to get a better look at what was there and it looks like 3 cards are installed. I assume video, sound and what I thought was the modem card. Is an ethernet card and modem one and the same? I've never used those little slots, so I'm not even sure they work.

Ahh, there we go. The unknown device is a modem. These are not the same as an ethernet card, and are pretty much useless. A modem basically just communicates via standard phone line; the name itself stands for "Modulator/Demodulator" because it converts Binary data to Audio data and back again for transfer and receipt of information. The name itself has been usurped for things like Cable modems which don't actually do any modulation or demodulation, or, for example, in the case of a USB modem. It has two connections because one is for the telephone line, and the second is so you can hook up a normal phone to the other one. Unless your connection is dial-up, however, it's useless. I would just remove it in your situation. The connection is not the same; ethernet connectors look similar to standard phone connectors, especially in a picture, but they are a bit fatter and not compatible at all.

The Sound card I'm not so sure about, again, according to the aforementioned specifications the system includes a sound chip. Are there connections on the rear of that card that lead you to conclude that it is the sound card? If your speakers connect to it, then it is. It could be an extra sound card, too. if nothing is connected to it, It's not necessary.


As for terminology, most connections are called... well, connectors, generically. The cards themselves are fitted into slots.