My Personal Grammar Gripes

[Allan]

After watching these truly gifted young athletes at the Olympics I am   always amazed and impressed by their abilities and the years of hard   work they put in to get where they are. But when LISTENING to some of   them I'm simply flabbergasted that their parents and teachers allow them   to speak as they do without correcting them.

There are three words that simply have to be eliminated from the vocabulary of anyone under the age of 25:

Definitely

Amazing

Like (as in "it was like amazing")

I   heard Gabby Douglas interviewed a number of times this week, and she   cannot go through two sentences without using one of those words (mostly   "definitely" or "amazing"). And I'm not picking on her - this is true   of the vast majority of the young athletes - and young people in general   - I've heard.

And while I'm on it, at what point did it become commonplace - or even acceptable -   to start sentences with "So..."? I'm in the middle of overseeing an   assignment for which we've engaged a very prestigious, very well known   world-wide consulting firm. The partner in charge of the engagement   starts almost every sentence with "So". Now this is a VERY well   educated, well rounded, and intelligent individual who deals with very   senior level business professionals in the largest corporations in the   world. And of course it's not only verbal - take a look at posts on this   site. It's like definitely amazing how many posts start with the word   "So"

Okay, that's my rant for the day. I feel better having gotten it out of my system 

[truenorth]

In my opinion on the subject it is a direct result of the benifit and curse of the phenomenon of social media. Take twitter as an example.Thoughts are expressed but in order to conform to the character constraints great liberties are taken with the use of language (i suspect all languages). What is evolving is a series of new languages based on mainstream languages but due to many limitations/constraints are being modified.Undoubtedly other factors are probably at play as well such as a general dumbing down of scholastic criteria.My opinion.truenorth

[Allan]

Nah. There's no doubt social media, texting, and "online speak" in general has effected our language - especially among the young. But what I'm referencing is not a direct result of that particular phenomenon. These are three words that have crept into the vocabulary of youngsters not because of Twitter, but because others speak that way so they do too. In the end, I attribute it to laziness and poor education and involvement by BOTH teachers and parents.

[truenorth]

Yes that is indeed so . My point being that language use has become lazy. If some people could get through their days with the use of only one word that would appeal to them.It usually requires thought to use an expanded use of language.truenorth

[BC_Programmer]

And while I'm on it, at what point did it become commonplace - or even acceptable -   to start sentences with "So..."? I'm in the middle of overseeing an   assignment for which we've engaged a very prestigious, very well known   world-wide consulting firm. The partner in charge of the engagement   starts almost every sentence with "So". Now this is a VERY well   educated, well rounded, and intelligent individual who deals with very   senior level business professionals in the largest corporations in the   world.

There is no rule against starting a sentence with "So".

[Allan]

Agreed. But in the last short period of time it seems to have become ubiquitous. One would tend to think that "So" would be responsive rather than initiative, but it's now used by the person starting the conversation more and more often.

[BC_Programmer]

Agreed. But in the last short period of time it seems to have become ubiquitous. One would tend to think that "So" would be responsive rather than initiative, but it's now used by the person starting the conversation more and more often.

In my experience it seems to be used more often by academics, scientists, etc. (So at the start of a sentence, that is).

That said:



 

[Allan]

[WillyW]

... But when LISTENING to some of   them I'm simply flabbergasted that their parents and teachers allow them   to speak as they do without correcting them.

While I tend to agree with your point, I try to remind myself that these are teens.  Teens have been doing this for ages... using their own set of buzz words to be 'cool'.
True - the rest of us, and especially parents and teachers,  should constantly provide a better example - and hope and realize that these young people will eventually grow out of their current habits.

Some do not.
As adults, we get a general impression of these as being dumb.

...
What is evolving is a series of new languages based on mainstream languages but due to many limitations/constraints are being modified.

Translation:  We are allowing stupidity to be acceptable.

Undoubtedly other factors are probably at play as well such as a general dumbing down of scholastic criteria.

Bingo!



The ones that I just don't get are in the written word.  On forums, live chat, email, etc. - when the writer uses    your    and    you're , interchangeably.
Or   they're , there, their.

When people do this, it is not a typo.  We all make typos.   It is not a common grammatical error.  Most of us are not English teachers.
This is as if the writer doesn't know the difference.
It is becoming more and more prevalent daily.     Why?       ....   because it is accepted.

[Daisymae70]

I agree on so many levels with what is being said here.  But what is worse in my mind is to listen to a conversation  by the young and the old (more so by the young lately) where every other word, literally, is the F  word or the C word or GD.  You want to talk about  words that say "nothing".  Those words grate on me more than all the "overused" words spoken by the youth  mentioned here.  Conversations of this nature lose any participation by me.  Try ease dropping sometime.  And I hate "shortcut" texting.  It has turned language into a non language that even I don't understand and no one cares to have to learn how to spell.  Amazing, definitely, so.... overused, maybe. But these don't turn me off, make me walk away from a conversation or scratch my head.   And there is a good chance the young people using amazing, definitely....can spell them.  I am not sure I was very articulate at 16 but have improved with age.   

[WillyW]

http://tinyurl.com/97q8hzk


       

[Carbon Dudeoxide]

http://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/difiantly

People should also learn how to spell 'definitely'.

[BC_Programmer]

where every other word, literally, is the F  word or the C word or GD. 

Too true. I might use a word like that but it will be so rare that it will actually have some meaning just that I used that word to describe how passionately I feel about what I'm expressing. I think kids that use it are using those words to feel more "grown up" but IMO it makes them look more childish because, as you said, they no longer have any meaning.

[BC_Programmer]

The ones that I just don't get are in the written word.  On forums, live chat, email, etc. - when the writer uses    your    and    you're , interchangeably.
Or   they're , there, their.

I'm sure they're are good reasons for those things that are done that get on you're nerves.


 

[Salmon Trout]

I think kids that use it are using those words to feel more "grown up" but IMO it makes them look more childish because, as you said, they no longer have any meaning.

If they are signifiers as you suggest (and I agree) then they have meaning for the utterer and at least some of the listeners.

[WillyW]

I'm sure they're are good reasons for those things that are done that get on you're nerves.


 

heh ..   I wasn't referring to the times that it is done in good fun, intentionally when addressing me.   There are plenty of other examples.

But, even with the times that it is done just for me, I try to do my part and not contribute to the dissemination of stupidity by NOT accepting it.   

[lectrocrew]

While I tend to agree with your point, I try to remind myself that these are teens.  Teens have been doing this for ages... using their own set of buzz words to be 'cool'.

Agreed.
"cool  (kl)
adj. cool·er, cool·est
1. Neither warm nor very cold; moderately cold: fresh, cool water; a cool autumn evening."
 The usage of cool as a general positive epithet or interjection has been part and parcel of English slang since World War II, and has even been borrowed into other languages, such as French and German. Originally this sense is a development from a Black English usage meaning "excellent, superlative," first recorded in written English in the early 1930s and I've used this term as a positive descriptive term since the 60's myself although my parents often 'brow-beat' me for doing so. I still use that word often today and sometimes start sentences with "well now', "Uh", "tell ya what" ect.
 Then in 2001 when I thought my Pontiac Trans Am was so cool, a young poster on one of the hot rod forums stated that he thought my car was "sick". I can't link to the thread since that forum no longer exist but I remember my response was not pretty.
Since then I've realized "sick" has a whole new meaning as slang as seen in The Online Slang Dictionary
"sick - adjective
great; "cool", "awesome"."
 I.ve been watching the olympics and believe it was during a well executed gymnast routine when the NBC commentator referred to the routine as "sick'. 
 It's a living, evolving language of the words and how/when they are used and I'm trying to keep up with the new lingo's as best I can - and also realize how my parents felt when I was young. 
Hang in there Allan. You are not alone!


 

[Daisymae70]

So true. (so..... in the truest sense of the word  I still use "cool" and feel outdated. 

[Helpmeh]

One thing that bugs me (and I do it all the time) is that people often introduce quotes with something along the lines of "and she's like 'blah blah blah.'"

[Allan]

One thing that bugs me (and I do it all the time) is that people often introduce quotes with something along the lines of "and she's like 'blah blah blah.'"

Right there with you. "And I'm like..... and she's like" instead of "And I said.... and she said".
Drives me nuts.

[Helpmeh]

Right there with you. "And I'm like..... and she's like" instead of "And I said.... and she said".
Drives me nuts.

I'll be telling a story to one of my friends and say "And I was like..." but in my head I'm like (there I go again ) "WHY DO I KEEP SAYING LIKE? LIKE DOES NOT BELONG THERE!"

[CBMatt]

I also have my pet peeves when it comes to grammar.  Personally, I can't stand anyone who spells "definitely" as "defiantly".  Not only is it worrisome to think that someone is stupid enough to think that word could actually be spelled that way, it is rather confusing at times.  I often find myself thinking "Why is this person so defiant?  And what are they defying anyway?"  "Irregardless" is another annoying one.

I also hate people who say "would of", "could of", and "should of".  Again, it is difficult to comprehend the level of stupidity involved here.  Didn't they ever see the Conjunction Junction?  In any case, I defiantly won't be sharing my supplies with any of them during the zombie apocalypse.

When it comes to things like "like", I'm a bit more forgiving of it as long as it's not overused.  Heck, I say it myself sometimes simply because it is something that has been ingrained in our language (and my brain) for some time now.  We have to keep in mind that we're not speaking Latin; English is still alive and evolving.  I mean, the word "dove" used to only refer to birds, but it is now [heterophonically] used as the past-tense for "dive".  There are plenty of currently acceptable words that were once considered incorrect.  Your parents very well may have had a discussion just like this in regards to the way kids in your generation talked, Allan.

[Allan]

You "can't stand" people who misspell "definitely"? You "hate" people who say "of" instead of "have"? Wow, even I'm not that obsessed with the language

And you're more forgiving if it's something you do too, huh?

[WillyW]

...
 Heck, I say it myself sometimes simply because it is something that has been ingrained in our language (and my brain) for some time now.  We have to keep in mind that we're not speaking Latin; English is still alive and evolving.
...

The trick is in knowing when it crosses the line:

Quote from: truenorth on August 09, 2012, 12:51:01 PM

    ...
    What is evolving is a series of new languages based on mainstream languages but due to many limitations/constraints are being modified.

Translation:  We are allowing stupidity to be acceptable.

from a living language to stupidity.


Also, you're (not your ...hehehe)  quite right regarding conditioning.  That's how some of this idiocy creeps in, then becomes the norm.   Accepting it is allowing stupidity to rule.   

On the other hand, an example of new words with new meaning in a living language:
'I'm going to put my cup of coffee in the microwave' .

I'm sure there are a few of us here old enough to remember a time when if someone had said that to you, you would have had absolutely no idea what was meant.   

THAT is an example of how new things get into the language, in a good way.

[CBMatt]

You "can't stand" people who misspell "definitely"? You "hate" people who say "of" instead of "have"? Wow, even I'm not that obsessed with the language

Ha ha, it's extreme, I know.  I'm obviously not perfect by any means, but I have become less tolerant of people in general.  And for what it's worth, I don't hate all people who are guilty.  Although I've never tested her, I'm fairly certain my wife wouldn't be able to spell "definitely" if her life depended on it, but she also has a reading/writing disorder and I know that she is an otherwise intelligent person.

And you're more forgiving if it's something you do too, huh?

Exactly!  Most of us work that way, don't we?  I did hate it for quite a while, though, especially as a teen.  My Lit/Comp teacher in 7th grade was really hard on kids who misused "like" and "Can I", and I was always on her side.  And it still drives me crazy to listen to teenage girls who use "like" as 90% of their vocabulary.  But having grown up on the Gold Coast of California, it's something I had to come to terms with and eventually accept because it's not going away anytime soon (although I'm sure it eventually will one day).  But like I said, I'm only okay with it in moderation.

Also, you're (not your ...hehehe)  quite right regarding conditioning.  That's how some of this idiocy creeps in, then becomes the norm.   Accepting it is allowing stupidity to rule.

I agree to an extent, but it can't always be up to us to determine what qualifies as stupidity.  Some things are going to be easy to classify as such (e.g. lazy text speech or internet meme lingo), but it's not always going to be so clear-cut, largely because much of it is subjective.  For instance, "the Net" is perfectly acceptable to most people as more than mere slang, but I personally think it is a stupid thing to say.  But it's not up to me to decide.  And when it comes to "like", I feel that it is less about stupidity and more about confidence.  Growing up on the beach, I typically only heard it in phrases such as "That was, like, totally radical!"  Nowadays, most of its usage is in the place of where "uh" and "um" used to be...and while people do indeed sound stupid saying these things, it's more appropriate to say that they are simply not confident about what they're saying or they are essentially talking faster than their brains are thinking.

I do get your point, though, and I agree that it's important to keep our language from deteriorating entirely.


If we ever happen to start a CH Book Club, I nominate this for the first week:
http://www.amazon.com/Um-Slips-Stumbles-Verbal-Blunders/dp/0375423567/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8932074-5418209?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194536144&sr=8-1
It sounds like an interesting read.

[Fed]

I've got a question say you're sitting at home with your wife telling her what you are going to do, what is correct?

I'm going to take my car to the garage and get some gas.

or

I'm going to bring my car to the garage and get some gas.

Every time I see bring used in that context I cringe.

[truenorth]

Actually for most of humankind this is an impossible feat.The car will take you (your along for the ride so to speak).
As well "I'm going to bring my car to the garage and get some gas." You don't bring it "it" brings you. truenorth

[Salmon Trout]

In standard English 'take' = convey from here => somewhere else, and 'bring' = convey from somewhere else => here. However there are many local dialects and variant varieties, so it doesn't have to be 'wrong'.

One of my own pet hates is using 'of' after an adjective e.g. "It isn't that big of a deal". It used to be mainly American but it's creeping over here now. Also people who insist on spelling 'dilemma', 'dilemna'.

[CBMatt]

In standard English 'take' = convey from here => somewhere else, and 'bring' = convey from somewhere else => here.

Exactly how I see it.

One of my own pet hates is using 'of' after an adjective e.g. "It isn't that big of a deal". It used to be mainly American but it's creeping over here now.

I'm guilty of this one.  But for what it's worth, I don't think I use it outside of "that big of a deal".  I'll have to pay more attention and see if I can catch myself using it in other sentences.

[Salmon Trout]

I'll have to pay more attention and see if I can catch myself using it in other sentences.

People say "It's not that long of a journey" and "She didn’t give too long of a talk", and "How hard of a job do you think it’ll be?". Don't get me started on "bored of" when people mean "bored with"...

[Helpmeh]

What bugs me (I don't even know if it's wrong) is when someone says "I got in trouble by _____." It just sounds SO awkward that it drives me nuts.

[Salmon Trout]

Do you mean like "I got in trouble by drinking too much" or "I got in trouble by lying and cheating"? Sounds fine to me.

[WillyW]

http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php/topic,133152.msg859425.html#msg859425

[Salmon Trout]

Yes, that one as well...

[WillyW]

Yes, that one as well...

Except that is not grammar.  That's a thing known as a  smiley .       

[Salmon Trout]

Except that is not grammar.  That's a thing known as a  smiley .     

I was agreeing with you. I quoted your smiley because I was saying "Yes, Willyw, I also smile because I also dislike that error, the one that heads the page (on this very site) that you linked to". The error that I (and you) have tactfully refrained from quoting.

[patio]

Happy Birthday Broni....

             

[WillyW]

I was agreeing with you.

[Helpmeh]

Do you mean like "I got in trouble by drinking too much" or "I got in trouble by lying and cheating"? Sounds fine to me.

It sounds fine there, but I mean when people say "I got in trouble by the vice principal." It just doesn't sound right to me.

[Salmon Trout]

I mean when people say "I got in trouble by the vice principal."

Oh I see what you mean. I agree. Where I come from (England) we would say "got in trouble with" in that situation. I believe that is standard English.

[CBMatt]

Even in that example, I think it can make sense if the vice principal got you in trouble with someone else (perhaps he/she called the cops on you) rather than you being in trouble specifically with him/her.  If it is the latter, however, I'll have to agree that it does indeed sound strange.


Another massively annoying one that just popped into my head is when people say "I seen it" instead of "I saw it".  And of course there's the classic "I could care less", but I think a lot more people are finally starting to say that one properly.

[Allan]

Another massively annoying one that just popped into my head is when people say "I seen it" instead of "I saw it".

That's mostly a lack of education (possibly even dialectic in some cases). My intention in this thread was to point out how careless and lazy our otherwise well educated younger citizens have become in their use of the language.

[Salmon Trout]

There is an aspect of this thread that strikes me very forcibly. It is an important point in my opinion. I shall attempt to summarise ("summarize") it as clearly and as fairly as I can. Many of the complaints put forward about "bad grammar" are in fact moans about speech patterns and usages which are in fact dialect or regional variants. English has dialects. Some of these have achieved scholarly status - US Standard English, British Standard English, etc. Others are more casual and informal, but I would hesitant to label them "wrong" in every situation. "I did not know where Jim was at" might be inappropriate in a piece of formal prose but perfectly fine in relaxed conversation in certain zones of the English speaking world. We all have our pet hates (I particularly dislike misuses of  'of'  e.g. "I would of gone sooner" which are common in Bristol, England, where I live -- even worse, "I would of gone sooner if I had of known it was that big of a deal"*) but a language scholar would merely note them as dialect variants. They can bring colour ("color") and life to speech and without them we would all talk like books.

* The first 'of' replaces the standard 'have', and the second and third are nonstandard insertions.

[patio]

That being said the Vice-Principal is still a jerk...

[truenorth]

Far be it for me (living in a glass house as i do) to be casting aspersions on the inappropriate use of language by others. As was very recently exemplified in a subject title here on the CH forums i am quite capable of misusing my mother tongue. As i stated much earlier language is an evolving process and is influenced by many dynamics some of which are not controlled by the user.
I particularly feel a kinship with the sentiment of ST in post 42  which to me points out some of the influencing factors affecting language evolution. It is not an excuse nor a free pass to the communicator  to not apply due diligence when seeking to express thought through the medium of communication (whatever the method) that attention should be paid to the words or phrases used. However i would not want that to become an impediment to communication. We all have varying backgrounds and from that a similar variance in exposure to how our personal level of language abilities have evolved. I would not want to curtail nor stigmatize a person because of what i might believe is less than adequate grammar skills. Better in my opinion to have the communication which can lead to gained knowledge and understanding as opposed to potential suspicion and mistrust.  truenorth

[Helpmeh]

Oh I see what you mean. I agree. Where I come from (England) we would say "got in trouble with" in that situation. I believe that is standard English.

That's what I would say and expect (in Canada), but these people my age drive me up the wall when they say that.

[BC_Programmer]

"irregardless"

[truenorth]

An excellent example of a portmanteau word.    truenorth

[BC_Programmer]

An excellent example of a portmanteau word.    truenorth

yep, irrespective and regardless merged to form a word that makes no sense unless you know it's origins... And even then will still be kind of annoying.

[Salmon Trout]

Has anyone mentioned "rediculous" yet?

[Helpmeh]

When people consistently spell words wrong, I just have the urge to point it out to them.

For example, on another forum I frequent, one user was having trouble with the spolier tags. The user even posted a thread asking why none of his spolier tags were working, when they worked for everyone else. I took the effort of going through his last 20 posts, including the new thread, and highlighted every time he spelled spoiler wrong - he never spelled it right.

Sure, I can understand spelling spoiler wrong a couple times, especially considering I and O are next to each other on the keyboard, but over 15 times in 20 posts?

[Salmon Trout]

considering I and O are next to each other on the keyboard

Maybe that's the cause... "muscle memory"... he thinks he is typing s-p-o-i-l-e-r but his fingers actually hit the keys in this order: s-p-o-l-i-e-r and he doesn't notice... I consistently type spreadhseet at work...

[Helpmeh]

That is true, but would that be as applicable to writing?

[Salmon Trout]

That is true, but would that be as applicable to writing?

I believe that is a type of mistake that can only be made while typing.

[glathem40]

I love hearing this one  "Needless to say ............."

[Salmon Trout]

"Needless to say"

What's wrong with that? It's not ungrammatical.

[glathem40]

 It's grammatically correct, but if it is" needless to say", then why say it ?  A colloquialism rather than grammatical error.  Didn't mean to take the off topic thread off topic.

[Salmon Trout]

It's grammatically correct, but if it is" needless to say", then why say it ?  A colloquialism rather than grammatical error.  Didn't mean to take the off topic thread off topic.

It's not exactly an colloquialism, it's been an idiom since around 1500. If something is needless to say it is very likely or obvious or self-evident. Although nonsensical at first glance (if unnecessary to say, why say it?), this phrase is generally used for emphasis. If we had no means of emphasis, speech and writing would be very limited and dull. Also sometimes we need to indicate that something is self-evident or obvious and we may not wish to use those actual words. We may wish, when saying something something obvious, to indicate that we are aware of the obviousness.

Also, we can use it to be drily ironic or to inform the reader of something by implication e.g. The family went to a diner for a meal to celebrate Pa's birthday. Needless to say, Uncle Joe got drunk and tried to feel up the waitress, Ma picked a fight with a guy on the next table, and Ellie Mae sent her burger back twice. (Thus we inform the reader or hearer that Uncle Joe is predictably a lush and groper, that Ma has anger management problems, and that Ellie Mae is a fussy eater, and that these things were not surprises)

Of course, there are people who over-use it, but you can say that about most elements of language.

[Allan]

  Didn't mean to take the off topic thread off topic.

Ohh - you're much to late for that

[patio]

Needless to say...

[Salmon Trout]

Slight edit: Thus we inform (or remind) the reader or hearer that Uncle Joe is predictably a lush and groper, that Ma has anger management problems, and that Ellie Mae is a fussy eater, and that these things were not surprises.

[truenorth]

With or without the edit these guys are never going to be invited to my home.  truenorth

[Veltas]

I just read through this topic and I have to say that it was
like definitely amazing.

[Veltas]

Being British I am mainly irritated by the younger generation coming out with American words they've heard on TV and on YouTube; it can really confuse me but mainly it irritates me.