DRIVER UPDATE GIZMO'S

[GLOOPS]

Hi Fella's!   

In my day, when one needed to update any program driver, it was a '*censored* Drive'!    It took ages to find the manufacturers site to start with and then lots more time to sort out and download. (More times than not the journey was a waste of time!)  Nobody relished the idea of updating one's drivers.   Fortunately, back then, there wasn't the need as much as there is today. 

With the advent of all the driver finding gizmo's around today, it crossed my mind as to your general opinion of these programs and if any of you favoured any on particular program above another?        

[reddevilggg]

Never used a program that updates drivers. They only time i've updated a driver is if there was a fault with something specific, which is rare.

[Allan]

Drivers should be updated only if there is a specific reason or need. And you should never use 3rd party driver utilities.

[camerongray]

I've never trusted any of these driver updating programs, they make claims similar to all the other "PC Booster" tools that it will speed up your PC, make it more stable and more secure.  In fact, many of the companies that sell driver scanning software also make stuff like registry 'boosters'.

I'd only ever download a driver from the manufacturer of the machine/motherboard/part and failing that the manufacturer of the chipset the device features e.g. Realtek.  And for older hardware without drivers for Windows 7/8, Vista drivers usually work fine.

You've got to wonder, if a driver isn't  available through one of these sources above, where does the one that the driver scanner installs come from?

[patio]

They are garbage.

[Calum]

They are garbage.

This.  It takes seconds, at most minutes, to find a driver.  You have several options - the manufacturer's website (e.g. Asus, EVGA, HP) the chip manufacturer's website (e.g. Intel, Realtek, Nvidia) and a third party site.  Sometimes the third party site will be legit, sometimes it won't...sometimes it'll have a more recent driver, sometimes it won't.  I tend to get my drivers either from the chip manufacturer, as it will almost certainly be more up to date than the (for example) motherboard manufacturer, or from a trusted source.  I actually usually get my drivers from Station Drivers, because they're more up to date and it's much easier to find what I'm looking for than wading through Intel's site.

These utilities that scan your system and pick drivers for you often bundle rubbish, or can't find the driver, or give you an outdated or incompatible driver anyway.  They're totally useless.

[BC_Programmer]

I Agree that they are rubbish.

The reason is that the task they purport to perform is pretty much impossible.

What task is that? Updating installed drivers. This is a difficult task because there is no centralized database of every single driver and it's particular progress through versions. So usually these "driver scanners" are nothing more than crappy package managers reading from the companies website. It also has no direct access to know exactly what piece of hardware the driver is installed for; some later versions of a driver will drop support for older hardware or even certain hardware features; it cannot know this and it would take a lot of testing to adequately discover.

The second problem is that even if we assumed the task was possible- it would serve no purpose. Can out-dated drivers cause issues? well, yes. But the fact is that while out-dated drivers may have bugs or issues, new drivers can also have bugs and issues. If you are using a driver version and you haven't had any issues, then whatever bugs that driver software has don't affect you.

But there is no way to know if the bugs in the updated version will.

And once you know the circumstances where it's reasonable to update a Device Driver, you can see that any application that essentially blankets "new drivers=better drivers" is either ignorant or, more likely, scamming people.

[patio]

There are a few in Chat that sing their praises and swear by them religiously...
I just sit back and watch how many times they wind up wonking someone's hardware for no apparent reason...

And occasionally you see someone who was foolish enough to spend $39 Bucks for one of those useless apps.

[camerongray]

There are a few in Chat that sing their praises and swear by them religiously...
I just sit back and watch how many times they wind up wonking someone's hardware for no apparent reason...

And occasionally you see someone who was foolish enough to spend $39 Bucks for one of those useless apps.

Yep, I absolutely cringe when "you-know-who" preaches about it.

But!  You can get a drivers scan AND defragment your registry at the same time, just think how much faster your PC will be! 

[Geek-9pm]

Get drivers from the manufactures.
In rare cases, a driver might not be on a North American site because the manufacture of a device may have sold it only overseas. In that case one has to find the location of the company and go to that overseas site.
Otherwise, stay away from used driver dealers.

[GLOOPS]

Well I certainly get the message here fella's  ....  ditch all the driver gizmo's!      Just thought I'd get yer opinions, as yer know I respect all your viewpoints up here!

 

[Salmon Trout]

fella's  ....  gizmo's!

You could study apostrophes...

[GLOOPS]

Whilst on the subject, what then do you all think about Disk Cleaners and Fragmenters?  There are thousands of these gizmo's about come on ..tell me!  LOL 

[Allan]

I don't know what a "disk cleaner" is.

As for optimizing HD's, while it is less important with NTFS on larger drives than with FAT I do it once a week on all drives on all systems. Partly out of habit, partly because I'm *censored* when it comes to maintenance and "good housekeeping", and partly because there's no downside and there is a likely upside.

[Calum]

Whilst on the subject, what then do you all think about Disk Cleaners and Fragmenters?  There are thousands of these gizmo's about come on ..tell me!  LOL 

As far as defragmenting goes, I don't have an internal HDD in any of my systems or the systems I look after (parents and gf) so I don't defragment them as it's not a good idea.  I don't bother defragmenting my external HDD either because it's just used to store things and nothing is deleted, so there's only ever going to be a minimal amount of fragmentation.    I also don't really care how fast it is.
Disk cleaning, assuming you mean things like CCleaner?  If so then in my opinion, very useful, although as with any program you should read what you're doing before blindly clicking through or you may find you're removing files you actually wanted to keep (login details for websites or chat logs).  Certainly saves me a lot of time though and it's invaluable to me when freshening up an older machine that hasn't seen much maintenance, it can sometimes get rid of around 10GB of useless files with a few clicks.

[Allan]

Oh, okay - if by "disk cleaner" you are indeed referring to ccleaner and the like, I have to disagree with my learned compatriot Calum and say I think they are worthless. They do absolutely nothing you can't do on your own. And the fact that it has a "registry cleaner" module (as benign as it may be) makes it slightly dangerous, since the "best registry cleaner in the world" (whatever that may be) is totally useless and the worst of breed can render your system unusable.

[Calum]

They do absolutely nothing you can't do on your own.

Very true, and something I mentioned in my post.  I'm just saying they make a boring task much quicker.  CCleaner also has some useful tools built in, like the ability to control startup options, shell and browser extensions, and wipe drives, as well as do secure deletion.  As for the registry cleaner, again, like I said you need to actually read what you're doing rather than just blindly click through, but that applies to anything.

To each their own, and I totally get your point - I'm just saying, for me, a tiny program like CCleaner is worth its weight in gold to save me time, and combines several useful tools into one interface.

[BC_Programmer]

Very true, and something I mentioned in my post.  I'm just saying they make a boring task much quicker.  CCleaner also has some useful tools built in, like the ability to control startup options, shell and browser extensions, and wipe drives, as well as do secure deletion.  As for the registry cleaner, again, like I said you need to actually read what you're doing rather than just blindly click through, but that applies to anything.

To each their own, and I totally get your point - I'm just saying, for me, a tiny program like CCleaner is worth its weight in gold to save me time, and combines several useful tools into one interface.

CCleaner doesn't really offer you anything that you cannot get from Disk Cleanup, though.

[Calum]

CCleaner doesn't really offer you anything that you cannot get from Disk Cleanup, though.

Not to argue for the sake of arguing, but yes, it does.
Disk Cleanup doesn't do secure file deletion, drive wiping, browser/explorer extension control, startup control, for a start - those aren't perhaps "core features" of CCleaner, as it's billed as a disk cleanup utility, but they are nevertheless useful features it provides.  As for the actual cleanup side of things, it cleans far more junk files than Disk Cleanup does.  Examples are the Windows Update leftover setup files in XP, alternate browser temporary files rather than just IE (does Disk Cleanup do this?  If so, ignore that), cookie deletion (and selective cookie deletion which is also very handy), DNS and font caches, and temp files from programs like Steam, Java, Flash, VLC, MSE, and literally anything else via the use of an ini file.

So, no, nothing I couldn't do myself, but far less time consuming.  Not all of the above are incredibly useful, or likely to gain back immense amounts of disk space, I'll grant that.  I don't mean to sound like a shill for Piriform, I just find CCleaner a very useful tool.

[BC_Programmer]

Not to argue for the sake of arguing, but yes, it does.

True, but none of it is really cleaning, it's the satellite features. That isn't to say they cannot be useful, I'm primarily saying that- unlike the cleanup capability itself- they aren't really something you would do for regular, routine maintenance tasks. ( cannot find anything for drive wiping, browser/explorer extension controls, or startup items in cCleaner, though I'm a few updates behind).

it cleans far more junk files than Disk Cleanup does.  Examples are the Windows Update leftover setup files in XP, alternate browser temporary files rather than just IE (does Disk Cleanup do this?  If so, ignore that), cookie deletion (and selective cookie deletion which is also very handy), DNS and font caches, and temp files from programs like Steam, Java, Flash, VLC, MSE

Disk cleanup cleans up any temporary files that those programs place in the temporary location. I'm not certain of Firefox or Chrome put them in the temp folder or not (their temp files, that is). Most applications do. Cleanmgr (Disk cleanup) has a module for cleaning up old update files as well as service pack backups.


It definitely appears to clean-up more, but I've also had it delete useful stuff like MRU's (recent file lists) and other configuration data for some applications too.

On the bright side it's not a Driver Update tool.

[Calum]

True, but none of it is really cleaning, it's the satellite features. That isn't to say they cannot be useful, I'm primarily saying that- unlike the cleanup capability itself- they aren't really something you would do for regular, routine maintenance tasks. ( cannot find anything for drive wiping, browser/explorer extension controls, or startup items in cCleaner, though I'm a few updates behind).

How many is a few updates? :p I know those have been in for a LONG time...the tabs across the top there let you control browser extensions, scheduled tasls, and the context menu - that's what I meant, rather than explorer extensions, I worded it wrong.  I'm not saying they are routine maintenance, but still useful to have.

Disk cleanup cleans up any temporary files that those programs place in the temporary location. I'm not certain of Firefox or Chrome put them in the temp folder or not (their temp files, that is). Most applications do. Cleanmgr (Disk cleanup) has a module for cleaning up old update files as well as service pack backups.

Admittedly I haven't used Disk Cleanup in a while, mainly because it takes a lot longer to display the amount of junk it will remove, and to do its job, than CCleaner.  Where does Disk Cleanup hide the option to remove old update setup files, by the way?  I've never seen that option.

I've just done a scan with Disk Cleanup and with CCleaner, and they both give an estimate of 270MB to be cleaned - however, CCleaner isn't taking into account Firefox because it's open, and my FF cache is currently around 150MB, so it doesn't appear that Firefox does store its temp data in an area Disk Cleanup would normally check.  So, I guess what I'm saying is sure, Disk Cleanup does a fine job of cleaning the system temp files, and IE's temp files, but it doesn't have any extensibility, so it can't clean up most other applications, whereas CCleaner can be extended with the winapp.ini file to cover much more, and also covers more out of the box.

It definitely appears to clean-up more, but I've also had it delete useful stuff like MRU's (recent file lists) and other configuration data for some applications too.

As I said, it's a case of checking the right boxes.  If you want it to clean up that stuff, it will do.

On the bright side it's not a Driver Update tool.

Always a plus!


Perhaps what I'll do, to give this a proper test, is install all my usual software and things on my new PC, and sue it for, what, 4 weeks or so, before comparing CCleaner and Disk Cleanup.  I'll run CCleaner with its default options, then with everything checked that I would normally check, and then with an updated winapp.ini to recognise all my programs.  Does that sound like a decent test?  That should help satisfy my own curiosity to see how the two compare in terms of just how much junk they will clear from a system., leaving aside additional features.

[BC_Programmer]

How many is a few updates? :p I know those have been in for a LONG time...the tabs across the top there let you control browser extensions, scheduled tasls, and the context menu - that's what I meant, rather than explorer extensions, I worded it wrong.  I'm not saying they are routine maintenance, but still useful to have.

Mine is apparently version 2.29; that's why I didn't see those features. That's what I suspected. Mine has Startup, Uninstall, and System Restore.

Admittedly I haven't used Disk Cleanup in a while, mainly because it takes a lot longer to display the amount of junk it will remove, and to do its job, than CCleaner.  Where does Disk Cleanup hide the option to remove old update setup files, by the way?  I've never seen that option.

it seems that it only shows items that have elements that can be cleaned; you can run cleanmgr /sageset:99 to force it to show all the possible cleanup modules, regardless of permissions or whether there aren't any files to cleanup in that category.

but it doesn't have any extensibility

Actually! This is false. Interestingly, Disk Cleanup has actually had an extendable interface pretty much since the earliest versions, surprisingly enough. That is, Applications can add new "modules" and different segments that can be cleaned up. So, for example, Firefox <could> implement a Disk Cleanup module for cleaning up it's temporary files (or, heck, anybody else could). These interfaces are mention by this sexy beast in this blog post.

Though sadly so few applications have actually added cleanup handlers, it's a bit of a shame.

so it can't clean up most other applications, whereas CCleaner can be extended with the winapp.ini file to cover much more, and also covers more out of the box.

Disk cleanup could be made to read those types of INI files as well. Of course it doesn't have anything like that as-is.

Perhaps what I'll do, to give this a proper test, is install all my usual software and things on my new PC, and sue it for, what, 4 weeks or so, before comparing CCleaner and Disk Cleanup.  I'll run CCleaner with its default options, then with everything checked that I would normally check, and then with an updated winapp.ini to recognise all my programs.  Does that sound like a decent test?  That should help satisfy my own curiosity to see how the two compare in terms of just how much junk they will clear from a system., leaving aside additional features.

Well just starting them up here and there were discrepancies of a few hundred MB. I think I ended up unchecking so many cleanup options to preserve configuration settings that I just ended up not really doing anything that Disk Cleanup doesn't already do.

Arguably, deleting downloaded data files and whatnot (user data) is likely to give a far bigger space boost than any program (usually). No disk cleanup tool can rival a TB of ISO files, after all.

[patio]

I still think fish get tired of seafood all the time...

[Geek-9pm]

I still think fish get tired of seafood all the time...

More research needed. 

[GLOOPS]

I have to say guys' with all respect, what you are saying here flies in the face of a lot of the info that computer magazines dish out!    I subscribe to one called 'Windows 7' and have doe so for a few years now.  I have found the mag entirely informative and the articles therein well done.   There are always some 'gizmo's' recommended by the mag for one purpose or another.  In fact a CD always accompanies each issue, 'chock a block' with all kinds of programs and many are to help sort ones computer out in one way or another! 

So if you fellas' do so little on this front ....well I can only say that I am 'gob smacked'           

[patio]

It's called "advertising"...they get paid for recommendations.
Some however have more scruples than others...
Collectively the regulars here probably do more actual "testing" of apps and products than 10 of those magazines do each year.

[BC_Programmer]

I have to say guys' with all respect, what you are saying here flies in the face of a lot of the info that computer magazines dish out!

Pretty much what Patio said. I've never heard of this Magazine. Is this it?



(I like the part at the top that says to "secure your hard drive by splitting it". Yeah. Sure)

It's unlikely to contain very much of value. It's cover reminds me of "Maximum PC" and similar magazines, and it probably follows the same style. Many articles in these sorts of magazines contain very little original research and are either shilling a product for sponsorship revenue or are simply repeating what can at best be described as myths- which of course contributes to the spread of misinformation. "Jargon Free" could be taken as a guarantee that they are also "useful information free". You cannot learn about accounting without learning terms like budget and ledger, IT is no different.

I subscribe to one called 'Windows 7' and have doe so for a few years now.  I have found the mag entirely informative and the articles therein well done.

You also call Utility software "gizmo's". I'd put you in their target readership. Informative Magazines don't need flashy covers. MSDN and TechNet magazines are fully informative and most articles therein contain a lot of original material, research, and so forth, as well as providing any relevant information for them to be reproducible. Their covers are usually quite plain.

There are always some 'gizmo's' recommended by the mag for one purpose or another.

Paid sponsorships. This is the primary way most crappy useless utilities actually get any mindshare. To my recollection this was also how "System Mechanic" got it's start; by a magazine sponsorship from one of these low-quality IT magazines. They included it on the CD and probably had an article that was pretty much just company propaganda and people ate it up.

In fact a CD always accompanies each issue, 'chock a block' with all kinds of programs and many are to help sort ones computer out in one way or another! 

And they are mostly garbage. It's impossible to know if they are recommending a program because they actually find it useful or because the company that makes the product lined their wallets, so it's usually best to disregard. Even valid recommendations come with typically weak reasoning based on anecdotals.

So if you fellas' do so little on this front ....well I can only say that I am 'gob smacked'          

On which front?

[Geek-9pm]

I have  have followed this  with amusement.
Many PC target magazines are dying.
Microsoft knows full well the limitations of the software they n produce. They have laboratories much more sophisticated than what a struggling magazine can support. When there is a great need for improvement, Microsoft evidently does it and gives it free to its customer base.

Often the real issue is the tinkering and experimentation don by the user himself. That includes the careless install of programs that are not well-behaved.

[patio]

I think it's twisted Logic to give all Kudo's to MS...
It has always had limitations and a sore need for 3rd party apps...and always will.

[Salmon Trout]

Could we ditch the plural apostrophes please?

[Geek-9pm]

What is with the apostrophes?
The OP is talking about the software products.
All the software made by Gizmo

wikiHow - How to do anything

Apostrophe Usage Chart

Ownership

    To indicate ownership by a proper single noun.

    For example:
    Susan owns a hat. It is Susan’s hat.
    Barry owns a car. The car is Barry’s.
    Agnes owns a restaurant. This would be Agnes’s restaurant.

    To indicate ownership by a proper plural noun.

    For example:
    The Lin family owns that lawn mower. It is the Lins’ lawn mower.
    The Edwards family owns a painting by Picasso. The painting is the Edwardses’.
    Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen own a mansion together. This would be Mary-Kate and Ashley’s mansion.

Contractions

    To indicate one or more missing letters in a word.

    For example:
    She is not at work today [becomes] She isn’t at work today.
    I’m afraid I will not be able to attend the party [becomes] I’m afraid I won’t be able to attend the party.
    Because she does not like malls, Jennifer is doing all her Christmas shopping online this year [becomes] Because she doesn’t like malls, Jennifer’s doing all her Christmas shopping online this year.

Don’t Make These Mistakes!

    If you’re talking about something that belongs to an “it,” you do not use an apostrophe.

    For example:
    That tree has pretty leaves. Its leaves are pretty.
    We need to fix the legs on that table. We need to fix its legs.
    My favorite store’s jewelry is all on sale. Its jewelry is on sale.

    In general, apostrophes do not belong in plural words.

    For example:
    I have a pile of paper’s to grade. (Incorrect)
    I have a pile of papers to grade. (Correct)

    Do you want to use vanilla or chocolate frosting for those cupcake’s? (Incorrect)
    Do you want to use vanilla or chocolate frosting for those cupcakes? (Correct)

    Look at those airplane’s over there! (Incorrect)
    Look at those airplanes over there! (Correct)


    Do not use apostrophes when creating plural acronyms and years.

    For example:
    There are three ATM’s at the bank. (Incorrect)
    There are three ATMs at the bank. (Correct)

    The only people allowed inside are the VIP’s. (Incorrect)
    The only people allowed inside are the VIPs. (Correct)

    My mother was born in the 1950’s. (Incorrect)
    My mother was born in the 1950s. (Correct)


All text shared under a Creative Commons License.
Powered by Mediawiki.

http://www.wikihow.com/Sample/Proper-Use-of-Apostrophes

This is not an endorsement for Gizmo Inc.

[patio]

Kudos...

You happy now ? ?

Didn't realise you had graduated to Grammar Police
 status'''
Intentional apostrophe's.

[Salmon Trout]

I once received a letter from a customer headed I AM MRS JONE'S.

[Geek-9pm]

I once received a letter from a customer headed I AM MRS JONE'S.

That husband should have said " I AM MRS JONES' ."

[GLOOPS]

Errrr.....ain't we digressing a bit 'ere mates LOL       Talking about applications ...what about 'Autoruns' then ?    Now this little babe has cured my machine of a problem and it is recorded on these boards somewhere!   A great application that goes along with CCleaner  IMHOP!      

[camerongray]

Errrr.....ain't we digressing a bit 'ere mates LOL       Talking about applications ...what about 'Autoruns' then ?    Now this little babe has cured my machine of a problem and it is recorded on these boards somewhere!   A great application that goes along with CCleaner  IMHOP!      

Utilities like 'Autoruns' (Assuming you mean the SysInternals one) are great and very useful to have.  What I don't like are the programs that promise to automatically fix any issues and make wild claims about what they can do.  A small utility that provides an interface to change settings usually buried in a config file/in the registry is usually fine.

As far as the magazines advertising it, that's all it is, advertising - They will get paid to write about the software and supply it on the bundled DVD.

[BC_Programmer]

Autoruns, Process Explorer, Process Monitor, etc. are excellent tools. They do not "cure" you of any problems; they are tools you use to do so yourself. They promise no magical speed-up. All they promise is what they do. Autoruns gives you control over things that are automatically run at boot-up. Process Explorer gives you an advanced view of what is currently running and detailed information on them. Process Monitor let's you see what things that are running are doing, etc.

They require no advertising space because they are free tools. Mark Russinovich and SysInternals don't need a marketing team- his prior and current work speak for themselves.

Also, if you recall, the problem you had was started by a piece of software you got from one of these Magazine CDs.

[patio]

I think it's twisted Logic to give all Kudo's to MS...
It has always had limitations and a sore need for 3rd party apps...and always will.

Autoruns and the other excellent apps BC mentioned reinforce this point perfectly...

[BC_Programmer]

Autoruns and the other excellent apps BC mentioned reinforce this point perfectly...

Mark Russinovich works for Microsoft.

[patio]

I understand that...he saw a need and filled it which was my point.
He also sold sysinternals.

[GLOOPS]

Now guys' here's one for yer .....  We all understand that using the computer every day, installing and uninstalling alone, over a period of time, builds up 'garbage files' and ones computer gets slower and slower. (So they say).

Tell me what you do, how do you keep your computers in tip top shape then fellas?      

[Calum]

Personally I haven't noticed any slowdown over time since ditching the HDDs and moving to SSDs, because any disk thrashing going on isn't really noticeable due to the much faster speed.  However, I tend to run CCleaner every 2-3 weeks to clear out junk files, and uninstall programs when I'm done with them, and generally don't store rubbish on my PC - can't stand it when I see people with their desktop full of icons and files, an organized PC is a faster PC.  That's pretty much it, no special tricks here.

[Allan]

We all understand that using the computer every day, installing and uninstalling alone, over a period of time, builds up 'garbage files' and ones computer gets slower and slower. (So they say).

No, we don't all understand that.

[BC_Programmer]

Now guys' here's one for yer .....  We all understand that using the computer every day, installing and uninstalling alone, over a period of time, builds up 'garbage files' and ones computer gets slower and slower. (So they say).

This is actually a bit of a fallacy. The computer doesn't accumulate cruft unless you let it. The  System I am using now, according to systeminfo, was originally installed March 2010, and doesn't have any problems speed-wise.

of course, on a few occasions I've had to go ahead and uninstall applications and clean-up after them.

That said, one sure-fire way to accumulate a messy installation would be to install things from magazine disks. "Cleaning up" a system is not a question of what software to add, it's a question of what software you can remove.

One of the biggest factors that seem to cause what people perceive as the "Windows Rot" is simple: Shell Extensions. Programs that add elements to the right-click menu, or to other explorer functions, since these get used everywhere. Sometimes the registration of the extension isn't removed, either, so when you right-click Explorer keeps trying to instantiate the object and failing. Sometimes this can cause a rather large delay between performing an action and when it occurs, which is perceived as "slowness".

If anything, the reason Windows would accumulate left-over issues and vestigial pieces of other applications if if those applications have poorly designed uninstallers. Scamware and Utilities of questionable purpose usually have questionably proficient uninstallers, for example.

[Salmon Trout]

This is actually a bit of a fallacy.

I work with a guy who is an out-and-out fanboi* and he says he'd never use Windows because of "registry fragmentation".

*Apple user and evangelist (Computer, phone, tablet, TV box)

[BC_Programmer]

I work with a guy who is an out-and-out fanboi* and he says he'd never use Windows because of "registry fragmentation".

*Apple user and evangelist (Computer, phone, tablet, TV box)

It's interesting that for many people, Brand loyalties practically replace religious convictions, particularly in terms of the blatant misunderstandings of the "competition".

[Salmon Trout]

for many people, Brand loyalties practically replace religious convictions

I would go so far as to say that in this (at least where I live) secular age, brands do serve a quasi-religious function - perhaps Apple fans are the Catholics (think they are better than everyone else; ostentatious, given to veneration of symbols and regalia) Windows users are Anglicans/Episcopalians (easy going, broadly based), and Linux enthusiasts are the Plymouth Brethren (swivel-eyed zealots).

[EDIT] I hope I haven't offended anyone! I guess I have revealed both my tech and religious sympathies.

[Salmon Trout]

The Apple fanboi guy actually said to me once he really hated people who use the word "fanboi" and thought they were so stupid, etc. (I have never said it to him). However the other day he called me a "fandroid" when he saw my Ice Cream Sandwich phone.

[BC_Programmer]

The Apple fanboi guy actually said to me once he really hated people who use the word "fanboi" and thought they were so stupid, etc. (I have never said it to him). However the other day he called me a "fandroid" when he saw my Ice Cream Sandwich phone.

The irony

[patio]

I'm a recovering Catholic and the only issue i have with your statement is the connection to Apple...
Had you thought it out you would have come up with a different Religious connection for sure...

[BC_Programmer]

I'm a recovering Catholic and the only issue i have with your statement is the connection to Apple...
Had you thought it out you would have come up with a different Religious connection for sure...

I don't know. It seems like each statement was correct.
"think they are better than everyone else"
Arguably, this applies to any christian sect. That is to say, I've had far too many religious people "feel sorry for me"; and yet I could easily say the same thing to them and for the same reasons they would give me. Arguably this isn't exclusive to any particular religion; With catholicism when you have the Pope telling Atheists they can get into heaven it's sort of like if he told them they could get presents from Santa Claus, and seems to center around a "self-important" idea. That isn't to say that is unexpected, since all sects share it. Whether it's a bad thing is another question altogether, I suppose.

ostentatious

It's hard to argue that Catholicism doesn't have a lot of ceremony and fancy stuff. The Pope's Dress and jewel-encrusted hat; Vatican City itself; transmogrification, confirmation, etc. That isn't me trying to say whether it's bad or good but it's certainly present in a greater degree than most other sects.

given to veneration of symbols and regalia

Crosses, statues, stained glass symbolisms and various other things are actually quite common within. I've heard it mused that Catholicism almost makes Christianity Polytheistic through things such as Sainthood.

of course this is no place for this discussion. I  think we can agree that the fervor that some people hold to certain brands is very much the same as some might have for religious ideals.

Thankfully we don't have Linux users suicide bombing Microsoft Campuses or Apple jihadists building shrines to the ascended Steve Jobs.

Yet....

[patio]

I guess we should also keep in mind that all religions/beliefs are man-made...

That being stated i'm tempted to close the Topic...Apple or not.