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Author Topic: Apple and the FBI.  (Read 5418 times)

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Geek-9pm

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Superhuman



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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #1 on: February 18, 2016, 04:05:14 AM »
    That's admirable Apple's CEO refused to cooperate in unlocking the iPhone's encryption.  It demonstrates what you said about Apple (and Google and perhaps M$) trying to protect user's privacy.
    “The Earth does not belong to us, we belong to the Earth. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.”

    Attributed to “Chief Seattle” (Noah Sealth 1786-1866)

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 03:37:44 PM »
    Apple is geeing some support from other software giants.
    Google
    Facebook
    Microsoft
    Twitter

    Also:
    Civil rights groups go with Apple.


    patio

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 07:21:36 PM »
    It's actually scary that the FBI needs Apples help on this...think about it,
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 12:11:14 AM »
    It's actually scary that the FBI needs Apples help on this...think about it,
    That sis what many people wonder.

    The Washington  Post.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/17/how-long-it-takes-to-crack-an-iphone/

    Earlier BBC.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35537954

    This is going to be a ongoing story for some time. Some legal experts say the FBI request is not legal under current law. And it is all over on the major media outlets with a lot of experts siding with Apple.

    This link gives a list of  stories on this topic.
    List of Google results on Apple vs FBI
    Enjoy!  8)




    DaveLembke



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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #5 on: February 20, 2016, 06:15:32 AM »
    Quote
    It's actually scary that the FBI needs Apples help on this...think about it,

    Yah I found it interesting that they went this route. I looked yesterday to see if I could find a datasheet on the Flash chip used in the iPhone 5c and I found a picture in which I was able to get the chip info, but the datasheets are not there or well hidden.

    All flash chips I have ever known have a write enable leg on them. If you clip this leg or cut the trace that goes to them you can essentially make them Read-Only. The fact that the FBI wants to brute force it and they are worried about a lock out after 10 failed attempts in which it will then destroy (wipe itself) of data, should be able to be circumvented by clipping or cutting trace to the write enable. You then would have endless tries as for it would not be able to wipe the Flash chip when the count reached 10. The only drawback would be that the phone might have to be rebooted after each 10th try as for the counter in RAM might have to be reset back to 0 after hitting the limit of 10 in which the phone would lock up when attempting to wipe the data in which it would lock up unsuccessful at wiping the data.

    The above method is assuming that the iPhone does not require a swap space created on the fly which would require the write enable to be functional. I personally dont see a need for apple to have engineered the phone requiring a swap space as for the RAM itself should be plenty for the shuffling of data coming and going within the device vs additional write cycles that would wear out the cells in the flash that much quicker.

    As far as moving the Flash chip to another board to do a raw data dump to duplicate the data to multiply the brute force to the data among multiple (many threads) to crack it faster than a single brute force of the data, it might be far too much tampering involved in which the data then is not permissible in court, however the people involved are dead and so its really just intel info that they need in which any way to get the data without destroying the data could be utilized.

    The flash chip in the iPhone 5c appears to be a BGA type so it would require knowing the layout of the multilayer breadboard to cut a trace as for the legs are the balls under the chip that are surface mount soldered to the pads. They would likely still need Apple to at least disclose the schematics for this device so they can pin point the write enable trace and then carefully sever it without damaging other traces and components.

    Its the only method I can think of other than having Apple giving away a tool to them as a skeleton key which would cause distrust with customers and Apple in regards to security and tracking people without their approval etc.

    I looked out of curiosity as well as was interested as to if Apple made their own Flash chip in which the write enable was protected from being altered. If they were able to hide the write enable to it being tampered with by having a CPU/Flash/RAM chip to where all is well protected within the single silicon waffer then it would be almost impossible to stop a write condition from wiping the data because the signals are non serviceable hidden in the safety of embedded in a single silicon waffer. At some point I could see this being rolled out as for with the drive in APU's and better power efficiency it would make sense to save electricity/battery life as well as allow devices to communicate faster, as well as the security advantage of eliminating a hardware hack would be there too with signals off limits and only an input and output between touch pad and display.  ;D

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 06:56:26 AM »
    DaveLembke,
    Nice post. But are you saying that the entire chip is encrypted? Or is it just the data area that is encrypted. On my iPhone for the password is just a four digit number, which I think anybody could easily guess. But if I get locked out, I can sign into my Apple account and asked them to reset the password for me. So, I don't quite understand why the FBI could not unlock the phone. Is there some level of encryption that the user can employ to make the phone more secure? Apparently, that must be the case because the FBI could not crack the phone. Surely if it was just a four digit numeric code, they would've cut it open by now.
    Now about the chip. I don't know anything about the trip. But I do know that if you order a large quantity of chips will make it any way you want. Including strange or unusual pinouts. For the purpose of security is possible to create a chip that does not have a discrete data read or write leg. In other words, the address, data and control lines could all be hidden. I could imagine that if you work for Apple you probably would come up with some idea about how to make it very difficult for anybody to know which pin on the chip is needed to write data into the chip.
    Also, there could be an algorithm to detect if the data right leg has been damaged. Simply write some data into just one area of the chip that has been reserved for that purpose. After so many failed attempts at the password, it could check to see if the right 10 was still working by attempting to write something into that part of the chip. If, after say 25 tries, it could break the whole chip.
    Now I do not know anything about the chipset Apple uses and I have no idea if they of. The encryption protection to this level. But I am sure it must have occurred to you that they could be some way to detect any attempt to physically damage the chip.
    Of course, I don't know anything.  :-X

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 07:19:54 AM »
    IPhones use an Encrypting File System. Every single bit of information saved to the Flash Chip is encrypted when encryption is enabled. The key used is the User PIN as well as having that salted with the unique device ID and group ID assigned by Apple.

    The issue here is that while a PIN can easily be brute forced- as Geek notes- the iPhone prevents this- after some number of attempts, it will not only lock the phone, but it will delete the contents of Flash memory, effectively, as I understand, bricking the phone. Of course in this instance since it is the data that they want access to, that presents something of a barrier, as it means that one combination can only be tried every day (I don't know how often the attempt-counts reset).

    Personally, I don't think the FBI needs Apple's help at all. The lock-out functionality is part of the iPhone ROM itself as I understand- the bit of logic that allows you to enter a PIN or swipe code or whatever, so it should be within their means to extract the appropriate salts from other chips in the phone and then desolder the Flash chip and attempt to decrypt it's contents directly, as Dave mentioned.

    The reasons they want Apple's "help" is because it is more convenient for them (they should not be looking to make their job "more convenient"!), but perhaps more important it appears to be an attempt to normalize the idea that personal privacy stops where government agency begins.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    patio

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #8 on: February 20, 2016, 07:47:10 AM »
    On the other side of things there is no finite # that can be placed on the worth of all this Free publicity / good will Apple is garnering from this chess match...
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    DaveLembke



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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #9 on: February 20, 2016, 08:22:06 AM »
    Quote
    On the other side of things there is no finite # that can be placed on the worth of all this Free publicity / good will Apple is garnering from this chess match...

    Good point Patio   ;D

    What would be a sneaky move is if this was used in a way to get terrorists to switch to iPhones to feel more secure because Apple would never give away the tool to gain access... when in actuality behind the scenes there was a deal made and tool created and this then allows access to the inside of the terrorist groups without the world knowing. Information gathered able to be acted on in a way that protects its source from being detected as spy phones. Knowing the unique identifiers of these phones, they could target these phones for a "Update" which allows more spying without having to spy on the general public.

    What better way to get the enemy cornered into a communication means that you then have direct access to without them being aware because they feel so secure because Apple stood their ground to the world when behind the scenes just the opposite happens.  ;D

    Sounds like the start of a good book....  :P

    patio

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #10 on: February 20, 2016, 08:45:06 AM »
    You just made Tom Clancy smile....
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    Geek-9pm

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    DaveLembke



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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #12 on: February 20, 2016, 01:21:09 PM »
    Quote
    You just made Tom Clancy smile....
    ;D

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 04:47:29 PM »
    You must see this.
    Brute Forcing iOS 9 Passcode
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKggZezZf2M
    (skip the advertisement.)

    Geek-9pm

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    Re: Apple and the FBI.
    « Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 08:05:17 PM »
    Bill Gates 'disappointed' in reports he sides with FBI in Apple case
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2016/02/23/bill-gates-backs-fbi-battle-apple/80791116/
    Quote
    "This is a specific case where the government is asking for access to information," Gates told the Financial Times. "They are not asking for some general thing, they are asking for a particular case."