Upgrade Ideas/Help

[legit]

Well, its my birthday coming up so I got presents/cash flow coming in and i'm finally ready to upgrade my processors. But to do that, I have to upgrade quite a few other things as well. I am a gamer, and looking for a some-what high-er end PC, but not spending crazy amounts of cash.

Currently:
Mobo: D865GLC (Four 184-pin DDR, mPG 478-pin, 533 MHz FSB, AGP)
Processor: Intel Pentium 4 2.4GHz
Memory: (4 x 512mb) Kingston 184-pin
Video Card: 7800 GS OC ...AGP

Ebay estimated resale value: $360

New Ideas:

Idea 1
Mobo: Biostar TFORCE945P (Four 240-pin DDR2 667, LGA 775, 1066 MHz FSB, PCIe)
Processor: Core 2 Duo e6400 2.13GHz LGA 775
Memory: (2 x 1GB) PNY 240-pin DDR2
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon X1950GT 256mb PCIe

Newegg total cost: $607

Idea 2
Mobo: ECS KA3 MVP (Four 240-pin DDR2 800, AM2, 1000 MHz FSB, PCIe)
Processor:  AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+(65W) Windsor 2.2GHz, AM2
Memory:  (2 x 1GB) A-DATA 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon X1950GT 256mb PCIe

Newegg total cost: $585

Idea 3
Mobo: ASUS M2NPV-VM (Four 240-pin DDR2 800, AM2, 1000MHz FSB, PCIe)
Processor: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+(65W) Windsor 2.2GHz, AM2
Memory: (2 x 1GB) A-DATA 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667
Video Card: XFX 7900GT 256mb PCIe

Newegg total cost: $614

Im looking to spend around $600, but what are you thoughts on AMD/Intel processors and also, i've heard mixed reviews about ATI video card. 90% of the reviews I read online say the cards are wonderful, but others say they're complete trash and break within months. What are your thoughts on ATI vcards and especially the X1950GT?

Any suggestions are good, I dont have a lot of experience building PC's, and this is my first major upgrade. I'm not even 100% sure all the stuff is compatible.

Thanks for your time and suggestions.

[Chris_Ash]

So you're thinking of buying a new PC?

If so, wouldn't you need more components than just the graphics card, CPU, RAM and motherboard? What about the PSU, case, HDD, ODD, etc.?

These are the best of the 4 components that are currently available on the market:

Motherboard (120$): 650i SLi gives you SLi support and as much overclocking as you want. You can buy a slightly less expensive model, but its not worth it. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130082

CPU (170$): E4300. It costs less than the E6300 and is as good as the E6600 for half the price.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115013

RAM (140$): If you want 2GB, the OCZ Gold Edition DDR2-667 PC2-5400 is currently the greatest value on Newegg. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227078

Graphics Card (285$ - 340$: You have 2 choices. Either you go with the 8800 GTS 320MB for 285$, or you spend another 50$ and get twice the RAM. All I will say is that 320MB is going to be a bottleneck even if you are playing at somewhat low resolutions.. but since it's such a great card, you may be OK. I think its a 50$ well worth spending.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?DEPA=0&type=&Description=8800+gts&Submit=ENE&N=0&Ntk=all

All in all, those 4 components cost you 715$ minimum.
The graphics card costs the most of out of those components, but it is the thing that you should be spending the most money on. For instence, buying a better CPU will not get you much more performance, but buying a better graphics card will get you a lot more performance for the same ammount of money that you would have spent on the CPU.

[legit]

Hmmm, yeah. If you look at the title it says upgrade, meaning I have a decent functioning computer, so I already have the PSU, HDD and Cooling etc. Like I said, Im looking for a semi-high end computer, and I think the 8800 GTS is an overkill for me. But what do you think about ATI cards?

As far as the RAM goes, what makes that RAM better than the other RAM?

Processor: Again, what have you heard about going AMD or Intel, recently i've been leaning towards AMD - looking at the Idea 3 but I'd like to get my facts straight.

Mobo: Again, I dont need the expensive top of the market mobo, and I'm not big on OC'ing since it can be dangerous if not handled right. The mobo I buy will have to reflect what video card and processor I plan on getting. Also, I tend to buy from Companies that are better known and can be trusted like ASUS for example.

Thanks for the help though

[Chris_Ash]

Hmmm, yeah. If you look at the title it says upgrade, meaning I have a decent functioning computer, so I already have the PSU, HDD and Cooling etc. Like I said, Im looking for a semi-high end computer, and I think the 8800 GTS is an overkill for me. But what do you think about ATI cards?

Currently, the X1950XT is the best ATI card. It costs around 250$. The 8800 GTS is much better and is DX10 compatible and costs 300$. The choice is clear.

NOTE: Your current PSU may not be good enough for these components. Tell me what it is so that I can check.

As far as the RAM goes, what makes that RAM better than the other RAM?

Than the other DDR2-667 modules? Quality if nothing else. They are also CL 4 and not CL 5 like the ones that you linked to.

Processor: Again, what have you heard about going AMD or Intel, recently i've been leaning towards AMD - looking at the Idea 3 but I'd like to get my facts straight.

Oh no no no. Intel is far better than AMD right now. Their new Core 2 Duo series washes ATI's flagship Athlon 64 X2 series down the drain.
For instense the E4300 costs 170$. At it's stock clock speeds it's about as good as the AMD Athlon 64 5200+ wich costs over twice as much.
If u overclock (wich is something that the Core 2 Duos can do MUCH better than the Athlons), u can reach speeds of 3.0Ghz easy and up to 3.5Ghz using the stock cooler.
At 3.0Ghz, there is no AMD CPU that even comes close, and the ones that are the closest (while still not being even remotely close) cost over 700$.

Im sorry if you like AMD, but Intel is FAR superior at this time. In less thana year, AMD should have something new though, called K10 (the Athlon 64 X2 is K8).

Mobo: Again, I dont need the expensive top of the market mobo, and I'm not big on OC'ing since it can be dangerous if not handled right. The mobo I buy will have to reflect what video card and processor I plan on getting. Also, I tend to buy from Companies that are better known and can be trusted like ASUS for example.

The 650i is the best value on the market. If you want something less good, the 570i may still be available, but not from Asus.

[Calum]

Just a few more pointers.
Build 1 is the best of those three.
Check the GPU FAQ for more info on current GPUs.
This post reinforces the fact that a CPU FAQ is in order, I'll do more work on that tonight.
I'll keep my eye on this thread too, C.Ash has some good info here and I'd like to see the outcome and help if I can.

[legit]

Thanks Calum, a few more questions. I'm not 100% sure from your post but your saying ATI isnt worth it? I know the 8800 is better but its also way above my budget. I'm going to look into working in a 7900GT.

I've heard that the e6300 is a better deal because you can OC it to over the e6400 and if you get the e6400 you might as well spend a little more cause its relatively similar to the e6600. Is this true? Is it worth getting the e6400, it seems to have serious OC capabilities.

On that note, I'm new to overclocking aka i've never done it before. I know there are plenty of guides online but will I be able to do it with such little experience without frying anything. Can you get a decent OC without buying any fans of any type or do you know of any good-deal cooling units?

Thanks again

EDIT: how does this look?

Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131046
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115004  - I'd rather downgrade to the e6300 if its not going to make a huge difference.
Memory: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820211061
Vcard: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814150144

[Calum]

The GPU FAQ is a list of current graphics cards in order of performance.
It depends on pricing and what you want, I think that a 7900 or X1950 card would be very good.
As for your CPU, any Core 2 Duo would serve you very well.
You can overclock them very well, but I would advise against it unless you are very very careful and read up on it a lot beforehand.
A new cooling unit would increase the potential of your overclock, but it is possible to overclock a little with stock fans.
The E6400 is basically an OC'd E6300, but the E6600 and above have more cache, so they're better.
It doesn't really matter for gaming anyway.
Does that help a little?
Edit: Looks great.  You know that's a micro-ATX motherboard though?  You may want one with 2 PCI-E slots as well.
And your CPU - if you want to save some cash, get the E6300 instead.

[legit]

I know the least about motherboards, whats micro-ATX and do I want it?

btw, thanks again for all this help

*edit* yeah...I dont like that mobo

[Calum]

Micro-ATX is a small motherboard.
Unless you're building a mini PC, I'd recommend a standard ATX motherboard, because there will be more expansion slots etc than in a micro-ATX board.
The board you linked to then is better, but did you read the first comment?

When in SLI, the mobo limits the bandwidth of both vid cards to x8 which gives the same overall bandwidth as one card running at x16. Dual x16 would be preferable, especially if you're running two beefy video cards in SLI.

I'd try to find a dual PCI-E X16 motherboard if possible.
You don't need two, but it's a good upgrade path - if you want more graphical power in the future you can add another video card rather than replacing it.
Edit again: Looks fine to me.
Let me check them out in a bit more detail and I'll get back to you.

[legit]

Ok, one last check (hopefully)

I've decided on this board, and here is the original

[Calum]

That looks great to me.

[legit]

cool man, ty again for all your help

[patio]

What's ty again ? ?

[Calum]

ty = thank you.
You're welcome.

[patio]

If i was grateful for help i would actually type it out instead of using some acronym but hey that's just me...

[Calum]

Aye, but he did thank me several times before in the thread, so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter.
At least they thanked me and didn't just forget it all like some.

[Chris_Ash]

EDIT: how does this look?

Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131046
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115004  - I'd rather downgrade to the e6300 if its not going to make a huge difference.
Memory: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820211061
Vcard: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814150144

That motherboard has only one PCIe x16 slot, so forget about future upgrades.

The CPU is also a poor choice. I wish you had looked at what I had written. The E4300 is better than both the E6400 and E6300.

About the graphics cards I will only say that it is what matters most. Spend as much as you can on it and, if you have to - less on the rest.
Also the 8800 GTS is over twice as good as the 7900 GT and costs about 50$ more. It is by far the best option. And with that motherboard, the 7900 GT is an even poorer choice.

I'm sorry to go on a rant here, but why do I spend my time trying to help when I dont get taken seriously and my posts not read?

[patio]

Is that you track ? ?

[legit]

whoa there C.Ash, I did take your comments into what im buying. That upgrade that your looking at isnt what I decided on buying. I went back over the forums and saw your comments and I am even getting the e6300 because of what you said. I have also changed mobo's to one with two PCIe x16 slots.

About the video card, as I addressed before, its just out of my price range. I'm already over my budget and I said in the original post, I dont need the top of the line stuff.

Thanks for your concerns and helps and sorry if you thought I ignored you/didnt take your comments into my order. One final time (I hope), here is what I plan on ordering tonight (as long as nobody else sees something wrong with it)

Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16813131071R
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16819115005
Memory: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16820211061
Video: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16814150144

And also:

PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16817153023

Does anybody know if this is a good PSU? I was looking for a cheap one that support PCIe.

Thanks again

[patio]

Does anybody know if this is a good PSU? I was looking for a cheap one that support PCIe.

Building a high end machine and scrimping on one of the most important components is not a prudent approach...

Thermaltake makes much better units than that one...1 12V rail...hmmm

[legit]

Yeah your right patio, but I dont know jack about PSU's. I dont know what to look for or what makes a PSU better than others. I'll look into Thermaltake but if possible can post some reliable and decently priced PSU?

Thanks

[Joe_Flanagan]

That PSU is a dog.
Thermaltake is not a bona fide PSU manufacturer.
They rebadge stuff that is made, let's say, elsewhere.

Look to the major manufacturers like Enermax or Seasonic.
Plan on spending about 2x that TT price.

[soybean]

For $10 more, take a look at this PSU:  FSP Group (Fortron Source) AX450-PN, 12cm FAN, version 2.2, 2 SATA, PCI Express, 450W Power Supply - Retail.  If you look at the specs (see Output), you'll see two 12V "rails", 12V1 and 12V2.

I bought a similar model, the AX400-PN in early January.  

[legit]

I dont know what the 12V "rails" are, but Im guessing there good? If nobody else has any better suggestions I might as well go with that one because I dont have a better idea. As long as its reliable and has PCIe

[legit]

soybean, as of now that PSU is what I plan on buying, but now im worried it wont be enough. I dont know much about PSU's but I was reading articles and they suggested something more powerful. Will this be enough for the system I plan on running? (see above for what I'm buying)

If not, I was looking at this. I'd rather use the PSU soybean posted but if my machine is going to overheat/not get enough power I guess I can throw in the extra $50.

Thanks again, legit

[soybean]

I don't know a lot about the 12V rail issue, but a Google search on dual 12V rails yields plenty of sources of info.  One of them is http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?p=1371562.  Simply put, two is generally considered better than one.  

If you read the reviews on that PSU, you'll see numerous mentioning of it being quiet, as I've found mine to be (quiter than my old PSU).  The main reason for that is probably the large, 120mm fan it uses instead of an 80mm fan in many PSUs.  The larger fan can run slower and still move plenty of air.  I've also observed voltage readings to be very stable.  One complaint about some power supplies is that actual voltage output for 3.3V, 5V, and 12V outputs fluctuates.  

Having the fan on the bottom of the PSU instead of on back is also a good design feature.  It provides for better exhausting of warm air moving upward inside the case from the processor.

[Joe_Flanagan]

FSP (Fortron Source) is a highly respected PS manf.
Good find, Soybean.

Legit, check your PM's, I sent you a link to an in-depth PS selection tutorial.

[legit]

Yeah I saw that, thanks

[angelgurlabby]

hello, anyone like to help me out? Im tryin to find a motherboard for an HP pp2200, but I have no idea where to start looking or what I need to have on it..... anyone know what it is I need to do?

-Abby Q. <3

[soybean]

Post your question as a new topic.  It should not be tacked onto the end of another discussion.

[angelgurlabby]

oops, sorry... Ill try that then.