May poll

[Raptor]

Try and convince me warez deserves the title 'theft' and 'wrong'

The point i was driving at...what's happened is not the fact that it's easy or right. The reality is that the line between good judgement and bad is what is getting blurrier by the day.

That's what troubles me.

What troubles me is that you actually think warez is to blame.

[patio]

Convince me it isn't wrong.

And how did i place the blame on warez which is just a nebulous term for cracked/keygenned software ? ?

Would warez be out there if someone wasn't doing something they shouldn't ? ?

[Raptor]

You once again fail to provide any arguments as to why warez would be wrong. Instead you answer my question with a question. That's something I'm used to seeing on Will & Grace, I thought we could have more serious discussions on this forum.

The only thing I'd mildly agree with is that it would be the same as stealing other people's ideas. Although the software is delivered to the user the same state it is in when the person would buy it, the software isn't really reverse engineered and the original creator his/her/their creation has remained untouched.. Therefore that argument would be mostly invalid.

They just didn't get to cash in on it ! That'll teach the greedy bastards, anyway, should have gone open source in the first place..

And next time, come up with some good arguments.

I see no difference.  Just because stealing software or recorded music is easier than stealing a car does not somehow make it any less illegal or immoral.  Stealing is stealing.

Would warez be out there if someone wasn't doing something they shouldn't ? ?

Just saying that it is 'wrong' because it is 'theft' and therefore 'immoral' won't quite do.

Because so is over-production and a market economy., but I don't see you overthrowing any governments or boycotting supermarkets. 

Besides that, how are you going to coin on zero's and one's? That's all they are. Real life objects have physical properties, they were created from resources taken from the earth; bits and bytes are just electrical impulses that are not directly taken from a limited pile of resources. That's why stealing a car is a much more serious offense than pirating.

Stealing hardware would be theft, 'stealing' software is simply circumventing some people their idea of how these 1's and 0's should be used!

[CBMatt]

And when you steal a car, you're actually taking something away from somebody.  You are putting them at a loss and an inconvenience.  I can't speak for everyone, but there is no way I would EVER pay $500 for a piece of software that I might only use a few times.  These companies would never see any of my money.  By using their software, I'm not taking anything away from them.  I'm not taking away any business because I wouldn't have bought it anyway.  They're not affected one bit.  If you're selling pirating copies and making a profit off of it, I'll agree that it's wrong.  This also applies to physically stealing the software on CD.

Maybe I don't deserve to use the software, but what harm have I caused?

[dl65]

CBMatt........

I can't speak for everyone, but there is no way I would EVER pay $500 for a piece of software that I might only use a few times.  These companies would never see any of my money.  By using their software, I'm not taking anything away from them.  I'm not taking away any business because I wouldn't have bought it anyway.  They're not affected one bit.  If you're selling pirating copies and making a profit off of it, I'll agree that it's wrong.  This also applies to physically stealing the software on CD.

Let me attempt to explain.......
Let's say that you or your company develop a piece of software, that is cutting edge....... and you decide to sell a licence to use it along with a copy protected cd to the public for some amount of money.
You spend a huge amount of $ to research, develop, test , promote, copyprotect and a number of other things to protect your initial investment.
Your software begins to sell and you are now seeing a return on your investment. Over a period of time, your revenues reduce or possibly even cease. Then you discover, that your software is being pirated. The reality of this is that each time a copy of your software is made and used, you have just lost the projected revenue on that product.

You said :

I'm not taking away any business because I wouldn't have bought it anyway.

   ....... Then why would you use it?
The bottom line is it's still theft............
We tend to rationalise the fact that we aren't really stealing from these people because they have lots of $...... or all sorts of other excuses.
I hope this makes some sense.

dl65 

[CBMatt]

Your post does make sense, but I'm not speaking in general terms here.  I'm only speaking of myself.  If everyone used pirated software, yes, that could detrimental to a company and I sympathize in that regard.  But me personally using the software isn't swaying things either way.

Example...
Every now and then, I like to make little animations if I'm bored.  It can be fun at times.  But I'm not going to shell out all sorts of money to get Animation Shop Pro (the program I use).  Never, no way.  I'd rather go without.  However, I came across a pirated copy a few years back (yeah, I'm using some fairly old software), so I figured why not?  I'm not selling my creations, nor am I selling the pirate software.  Heck, I'm not even distributing it freely.  I'm just occupying my time.  Jasc didn't lose a customer from my actions because I never intended on being a customer in the first place.

If it was 100% impossible to get a pirated copy, they still wouldn't be getting my money.


I know this doesn't apply to everyone else, but I don't care about everyone else.  What they do is their business, whether I feel it's right or wrong (truthfully, I'm indifferent).  I'm just giving my own personal side of things.

[dl65]

Hi Chris....... Your response re pirating ...... bears out exactly what I was suggesting that people do to rationalise to themselves that they arent doing anything wrong...... It's like a canned response we keep playing over in our mind ...... I'm not doing anything wrong........ It is still piracy no matter how you slice it up.
I wasnt giving you a hard time, but rather trying to explain why there is such a big deal going on re the use of illegal software.


dl65 

[Raptor]

Dl65, do I need to say it again?

open-source

The only way software companies should be allowed to cash in on is by providing SUPPORT and other services. (Like Canonical, who released Ubuntu..)

Every other type of approach should just take piracy as a fact of life and stop harassing honest citizens.

[dl65]

LOL ......     

Dl65, do I need to say it again?  open-source

If you wish, however I wasn't refering to open -source software.


dl65 

[soybean]

The only way software companies should be allowed to cash in on is by providing SUPPORT and other services. (Like Canonical, who released Ubuntu..)

This is like saying makers of televisions or living room furniture or cookware or cars, etc. should not charge anything for their product.  Their only source of revenue should be from support and service.  It's absurd.  Software maker incur costs to design, develop, and market their product, same as manufacturers of tangible goods. 

Are you saying all software should be developed in open-source arena and everyone who contributes to it's develop should do so without any expectation of remuneration?  That's no more realistic than expecting workers in factories making tangible goods to work for nothing.  Granted, an open-source community exists in software, supported by people who do work for free, and that is different from the production of tangible goods.  But, I think it's absurd and unrealistic to expect that ALL software should be developed in that manner.

[Raptor]

Canonical seems to do fine?

Sorry, none of your arguments are very convincing. Seems like ya all have marked branded warez as theft with out doing any research or thinking whatsoever! Just repeating what all the corporations say.. Over.. And over..

Not very original, refreshing nor progressive.

By the way, a car, which is made from and runs on limited resources, is not the same as software, which runs on energy and is made from human labour. Human labour is being abused as it is already and energy is a limitless resource if handled properly.

And yes, all software should be developed in an open-source manner and anyone who contributes know that their work will go towards a goal; to provide better software for everyone regardless of income..

Software maker incur costs to design, develop, and market their product, same as manufacturers of tangible goods. 

So? I have costs of living as well, I don't see you lobbying for me to get a raise in pay or make sure that all my labour is properly paid for. We've got more important things to do than make sure people do not spread paid software for free.

[patio]

Consider how many people have been screwed by how the patent system excludes those without deep pockets...this is an example of intellectual property also.

Big business still wins.  Is this also fair game ? ?

[CBMatt]

It is still piracy no matter how you slice it up.

Well, shiver me timbers then, I guess.

[NNEagle]

I have not download any pirated software before. I tried to get some free music but with no luck so far. Still on the search though. Afraid of the virus and the other stuff that could damge this computer.

[uesquebeathus]

I have and probably will do, I have always liked to test and experiment with almost everything, which means electric shocks, fingers burnt, fingers squashed and bruised, brain dead at the shock of how lousy the rest of the CD was after I bought it etc. I have found many software products which did not meet there marketing blurb to say the least, and many that did I went on and purchased many of them.
music such a mp3 I find that as I am an old timer I really think that many of todays so called singers cannot sing or play there instruments in reality as well as they seem to do on the recording digitally enhanced or not, I have been to a few music festivals across the world and was not enlightened. So I like to find the classics of the pop and country and western varieties a little bit of everything in the music world and which are seldom if ever found in todays music shops, mind you when I think off the sixties and seventies many of the recordings then were as faked as they are now.