Bill & Authentification

[truenorth]

From other posts it has been stated that it is possible to retain an operating system (Xp-pro media center) on a hard drive (internal)and install Vista Premium on another HDD (removable) on a computer that is authorized to utilize both operating systems. However maybe i am being paranoid but is there going to be a problem (authentification denial/cancelation/etc.) of the Vista if it becomes part of the HDD chain on another computer? After all a major reason for an external is portability and interchangeability with other computers. Even though i would have no intention nor desire to use the "Vista" on the "other" computer it is still there to be seen. i have many reservations about going solo with Vista at this moment.I have not yet installed the Vista on the external due to my thinking about this issue. truenorth

[soybean]

First, I don't know that Vista can be installed on a removable disk.  Unless I see this notion supported by a reliable source, I'm not ready to believe it.  And, if it could, it's not a good idea.  You would surely encounter problems if you tried to use that OS installation with different computers.  Unless the computers were identical, they would have different device drivers.  And, I believe it would surely be a violation of the software license agreement and, as you've mentioned, cause problems with authentication, i.e. activation of Windows.

After all a major reason for an external is portability and interchangeability with other computers.

Silly statement.  External hard drives have many benefits but they are not intended for OS installation. 

[patio]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here ? ?

p.s. Soybeans points are very valid.

[truenorth]

I suggest (with all do respect for the good work many of you do) that i is not productive to make presumptuios statements without all the facts (Soybean "silly statement") + endorsed by patio it would appear.
If it had not been for the ability to put an operating system on a removable HDD it is most unlikely that i could have rejuvinated a computer that had become a collection of metal and plastic parts. Also i had to do so as the HDD (internal) was not partitioned and --ah welll suffice to say it was not silly and it did solve a problem that many on the forums had not been able to solve (even though it became the most read post on the "software" forum-which it still is today). So comeon fellows try to refrain from derogatory comments that do nothing to advance the topic. which by the way both soybean and patio have not addressed. as one travels through the journey of life one should be adaptable to the ideas of others even though they may differ from ones own perceptions. After many decades on this earth i have learned long ago that there are often many ways to accomplish the same objective. There are those on the forum, i have wittnessed ,whose sole solution to computer problems seems to be "remove and reinstall an O/S". While this is sometimes the only solution it is not always the only solution.
patio,what i am trying to accomplish here is the continued use of an o/S that works and i trust (Win xp-pro media center) and at the same time have available the newest O/S (Vista premium) which i don't know and at the moment don't trust (and it appears with good reason from the experience of many other Vista users not only on the CH forums). As was the case on the dead computer with no HDD partitioning this one also has just one huge unpartitioned HDD (mfgr. choice not mine) that obviously contains the XP-pro O/S . Now if i can load the Vista on the removeable HDD (without the concerns i have expressed) that will allow me to use it and get to know it without the loss of something else until i decide if i want to use it or stay with XP.
Hows that --still sound "silly"??
As to the "i don't know that Vista can be installed on a removeable disk" here is the source for the statement i made that another forum member advanced when queried on that topic---
Jonas Wauters
Beginner

 Online

Posts: 189


Toshiba Tecra M1


    Re: coincident xp-pro/Vista
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 12:26:01 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes its completely possible to have to OSs.
And yes its possible to install in on the removable hard drive. that's if that drive is large enough.
Only I don't know how you can do that.
I 'll follow this topic sow I learn how I can do that.

Jonas 
 
 Report to moderator    Logged 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OS: Windows XP professional (SP2)
DOS: Version 5.1.2600
Processor: Intel Pentium M processor 16000Mhz
RAM: 1024MB
Video card: Trident Video Accelerator Cyber-XP4


I do hope someone will now give me the benifit of their knowledge and opinion as to the concern that i have expressed in order that i may decide whether i should even attempt this and try to ignore any inner voice that wants to say something that doesn't advance the topic. As is my case there exists at least one other person on the forums that has an interest in knowing more about this possibility. truenorth

[soybean]

Well, your posting of a reply from another forum doesn't lend much support to prove that Win Vista can be installed on an external drive, since he admitted he did not know how to do it.

Your last post portrays a somewhat different picture than your first post.  In your last post, you seem to have dropped the idea of running Vista from an external drive on different computers.  To run two OS on one computer, you really need a "dual boot" configuration.  That can be done on a single, partitioned, hard drive or a system with two hard drives.  Since your HD is not partitioned and you don't want to format the hard drive in order to use the standard Microsoft tools to partition your drive, you could obtain software such as Partition Magic that can partition a hard drive without formatting and erasing the drive. 

The other approach would be to install a second hard drive.  Then, you could install Vista on it and you would have a dual boot system, allowing you to choose which OS to boot during startup. 

If your external hard drive is actually just an external enclosure with a standard IDE or SATA hard drive in it, you could remove that hard drive and install it in your computer as a second/slave drive.   If the hard drive can not be removed from the enclosure, I think I'd buy another hard drive if possible, and keep your external HD for backup.

[contrex]

Vista will only support a non-removeable drive for the system partition.

it's not a supported installation scenario.



 

[soybean]

And, there would really be no point in installing the system partition on an external drive, would there? 

Reference: Definition of System Partition and Boot Partition

[patio]

You would also have to have a MBoard that supports booting to a USB device.
However if you do still want to dual-boot i would suggest another internal HDD.
This would solve the dilemna nicely and leave you with all that storage space on the external...

[truenorth]

patio,soybean,contrex, Thank you all for your input. Much to think about.
soybean, Just to clarify --nothing is different or changed from my 1st post. I would still want to use the Vista O/s on the "same" computer that the xp-pro media center O/S is on. It is a genuine external 250gb HDD not an internal in a case. I do not at the moment have any spare or extra HDD's kicking about. However this 250gb is available. It would be my intention as earlier stated to use this external between other computers in the household (but definetly not the Vista operating system other than on the computer it is authorized for --which coincidentally is the same one that has the media center O/S on it). However while i do not know how Microsoft accomplishes it's ability to validate it's O/S's i remain concerned that if this were doeable it would be there on a HDD to be detected on a computer for which it is 'not" authorized regardless of my intention not to use it on the "unauthorized" computer.Yes i am aware of the Symantec partition Magic software and i do believe it could allow a non destructive partition. However other than a version 5 (that is not useable -and not supported--which i paid good money for and have never used) i do not own that software. I don't see myself going that route as cost wise another internal HDD would be cheaper.
contrex, Not that i doubt your statement --but if true that would seem to be the end of my quest to go that route. I would only say that due to problems on another computer i was able to have win98se (upgrade) installed on "C" drive on the sole internal HDD (replacing a non functioning Xp-Pro) AND Win xp-pro (corporate) on another  external HDD ( 3 partitions 1-fat,2 ntfs) on the "G" partition of the external. I have been using that configuration for about 2 weeks now and no problems so far. I do appreciate that Vista is not Xp-pro and therein may lie the problem. So it seems that a dual boot from not only separate partitions but indeed separate and even external HDD's is possible (unless i have invented something up to now deemed not possible --and i sincerely doubt that).thank you all again for your observations and comments,truenorth

[contrex]

I do appreciate that Vista is not Xp-pro and therein may lie the problem. So it seems that a dual boot from not only separate partitions but indeed separate and even external HDD's is possible (unless i have invented something up to now deemed not possible --and i sincerely doubt that).thank you all again for your observations and comments,truenorth

There's nothing inherently undoable about booting an OS from an external USB or firewire drive. Linux can be modified to do this fairly simply. See here for a discussion and some links.

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-fireboot.html?ca=dgr-lnxw09FireBoot

See here for plenty more

http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=boot+linux+from+usb&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=t&oq=boot+linux

The problem with Windows, especially Vista, is that Microsoft does not want you to do this.

From a paper, "Recommendations for Booting Windows from USB Storage Devices" published in 2004

Windows does not support USB hard disk drives as the primary boot device

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/usb-boot.mspx

They make it clear that while USB devices may be used for OS deployment and repair, using a USB device from which to run an OS is not going to be supported. If it were, it would might endanger Microsoft's whole licensing strategy, since XP, which depends on tying the OS fairly firmly to a specific identifiable hardware set. Also, I can see security issues. If you could carry a full OS around, you could just walk up to any PC with a USB 2.0 or Firewire port and boot the thing up off your USB pen drive or hard disk (unless the BIOS was hardened against this).

That having been said, it has been done, unofficially, up to and including XP. Vista may or may not be next...

This page shows how.

http://www.ngine.de/index.jsp?pageid=4176

To keep the introduction short, Microsoft denies that booting Windows off a USB drive works.
[...]
I was wondering about the same thing, as i did not want to put a Windows partition on my Linux.based work laptop, and thought it was a good idea to run Windows XP off a USB Hard drive that i just plug in when i need it, and boot from it. To put a long story short, this is exactly what i do now

Here is another site

http://searchwincomputing.techtarget.com/tip/0,289483,sid68_gci1254169,00.html

You can easily get those PE disks, (Bart's PE, MiniPE, which modify the XP PE (Preinstall Environment) to form a ready made fully work ing XP bootable CD with network support, browser, disk tools such as Partition Magic, Ghost, etc, defraggers, and lots more. Well, this is a step up from those in terms of usability and functionality.

I wonder if one could install Linux on an external HD and then install VMWare and put Vista on that?

The man from Google he say YES!!!

http://apcmag.com/4027/how_to_run_vista_on_linux_xp

[truenorth]

Contrex, WOW. Such a great amount of information and the research that it must have entailed on your part. I am extremely  grateful for all the time and effort that you have obviously put into helping me (and I’m sure others) with your information. Thank you. You may rest assured that I shall follow and read all of your links (though some sleep may have to be sacrificed).
I am a firm believer in the process of reading as many of the CH posts on computer issues that I can as it most certainly adds to ones knowledge and skills pertaining to the utilization of computers.
I must now correct some misinformation that I gave on this post (unintentional). However as others may also be reading this post and perhaps contemplating some actions based on the information I have provided. I am currently working (others might describe it with a different verb) with 7 computers –4 very actively. I have represented that I have successfully installed and am using an O/S  (win XP-pro corporate) on a removable HDD. This is false. It is dual booted on the same computer as the win98se (a Sony Vaio). It is indeed on “G” drive. However it is on the 3rd of 3 partitions of the same internal HDD (NTFS). I also do have a “G” drive on an external 250 GB HDD (also NTFS) and erroneously believed it was on that external that I had installed the XP-pro.
However from what I do gather from just your last post on the topic “things are possible” to achieve certain situations re installation of O/S’s on external HDD. (I note your limitation emphasis on Vista) . Yes it was the aspect of “carrying it about “ to other computers that gave rise to my concern, which started my post on the subject. While I had and have no intention to use it interchangeably on other computers (non-authorized) perhaps there might be one person out there that might be inclined to do that . So I do appreciate the concern of Bill and his subordinates in that regard. Though I must say a similar concern does not seem to flow from them to us. As an example most new computers sold today (not tailor made ones) do NOT include a CD-r of the operating system. At best it is a “restore/recovery” utility—which I don’t believe can be used as a reinstall when a HDD, etc is lost. That is exactly our case with my wife’s recent purchase of the Cisnet computer that I wanted to do this project with. Also again typical the Cisnet came with the O/S  (XP-pro media center ) preinstalled as well as other software on the one honking 120gb  HDD with no partitions other than “C” on it. Without an O/S CD  it is not possible (even if one were so inclined) to reformat and partition  the Cisnet  HDD without some 3rd party (Partion Magic, etc.) software. To try it without such a tool would be destructive I believe. So it would be nice if the mfgrs. And Microsoft would include a greater degree of concern for the great unwashed that use their products and not constrain us so much. Thanks again. truenorth

[contrex]

Yes it was the aspect of “carrying it about “ to other computers that gave rise to my concern

Many companies here in the UK have a "no pen drive" policy, staff forbidden them and visitors having to give them up, BIOSes systematically passworded (this is often overlooked) and set to disallow USB or CD-ROM booting. Unauthorised data transfer to a USB device is bad enough, but if you boot from an external drive, you can browse and copy and leave no traces.



 

[soybean]

But, if he installed Windows on an external drive and then tried booting it from a different computer from the one from which he installed it, he's likely to encounter some problems.  Don't you agree?

If he wants to be able to browse the web on someone else's computer without leaving a trail, I'd recommend just installing the portable version of Firefox on a flash drive. 

[patio]

I suggest (with all do respect for the good work many of you do) that i is not productive to make presumptuios statements without all the facts (Soybean "silly statement") + endorsed by patio it would appear.
If it had not been for the ability to put an operating system on a removable HDD it is most unlikely that i could have rejuvinated a computer that had become a collection of metal and plastic parts. Also i had to do so as the HDD (internal) was not partitioned and --ah welll suffice to say it was not silly and it did solve a problem that many on the forums had not been able to solve (even though it became the most read post on the "software" forum-which it still is today). So comeon fellows try to refrain from derogatory comments that do nothing to advance the topic. which by the way both soybean and patio have not addressed. as one travels through the journey of life one should be adaptable to the ideas of others even though they may differ from ones own perceptions. After many decades on this earth i have learned long ago that there are often many ways to accomplish the same objective. There are those on the forum, i have wittnessed ,whose sole solution to computer problems seems to be "remove and reinstall an O/S". While this is sometimes the only solution it is not always the only solution.

Not sure where this comes from or why offense was taken....we are talking about Vista now...not your other situation which was totally different....

p.s. I only advise remove and re-install OS as an absolute last resort so you must have someone else in mind. Don't bunch me in with those advisors. Nor soybean for that matter...