Computers a NEED in a classroom?

[liambiscuit]

I am in the 8'th grade. A  computer in 7'th would have helped greatly. Our school is offering MacBooks who have no parking violations, pink-slips, etc. and sign a return contract and such. I am taking 4 (out of total 7) High-School classes. Art I, Algebra I, Spanish I, and Keyboarding/Career Investigation (swaps at the semester). My Spanish, art, and algebra teachers have already said they were going to attempt to utilize the MacBooks. To the extent of my knowledge, us 8'th graders in 4 HS classes aren't recieving MacBooks. Three of my teachers are attempting to use these. -- is that a strong point for us in 4 HS classes to reciece Macs?

The poll is asking if computers are/n't a need in a classroom, and what operating system they should have. (and that part about "what is a mac/windows?" pretty much means your a windows/mac user Please, when responding, give your view on both (and vote in the poll!)

Thanks in advance,
Arti

[Carbon Dudeoxide]

They aren't a need. We got around without em in the 20's

It's not the twenties anymore......

I currently go to High School and I have found my Windows XP laptop to be VERY beneficial.
My school is slowly turning to a laptop school as well.
It's currently being decided, but next year laptops may be a compulsory part of our stationary.

In case you are unaware of this, schools (at least mine) are planning to give every student Mac laptops because they're all the same, and if a student's laptop is damaged or not working, the student can swap it for another one in the school.

Also, you have to consider what your school will put on the Macs (software wise). You don't want your Windows laptop to not have the software the school is using in class.
However, I think everyone would agree that Windows can do just as much as Macs, if not more.

So....in conclusion.......which will benefit you the most?

[Austin H]

I voted MacBook, but details aren't my point here.

We really don't have a need for computers.  Civilization has gotten along just fine for 8000 years without them.  They just simplify some things and make others easier.  I honestly wouldn't want to live without them, but I could live without them, every single one of us could.

[ThrowingShapes]

I think computers are an extremely useful educational tool.  Although you will run into illegitment sources of information, once you learn the power of smart searching it's an amazing way to learn.  They also give the teachers more ways to well, teach.  Powerpoints are probably a prime example of this, they're a great way to get information to a large group easily.  The only thing I dislike about the use of computers in school is the security.  Nearly every day there's a story of a student abusing the privelage

As far as the mac/windows thing, I don't think many schools have the budget to incorporate macs into their system.  Windows is much cheaper on a large scale and schools generally have a tight budget.  As much as I would love to see macs in schools I wouldn't hold my breath.

(Oh and I would've killed to have a macbook given to me in eigth grade, but please don't make the news for doing that.)

[Austin H]

Macs are in schools...

In October, Apple announced that Macintosh passed up Dell this school year, as the #1 used computer in public schools.  In fact in Maine, the dean of a university (I can't remember which), made it required that all student to purchase and use a MacBook to enroll there.

[ThrowingShapes]

Wow really? I had no idea, where I'm from schools don't even have the budget to upgrade their ram to run autocad 2008.  The funny part is they finally have enough money to upgrade from 2000 software but then they can't afford to upgrade computers to meet the requirements.  Where my sister went to college they were actually asked not to buy macs and instead use windows for the simple fact that it's what professors use.  That was a few years ago and thats centuries in computer time I suppose.

[Austin H]

I'm fortunate enough to go to a school that can afford such things, but instead, they built a $4.5 million dollar middle school so they could crowd that with students that would instead crowd the elementary schools and high school.  Seriously, it's one third the size of the high school, with two-thirds the students (it doesn't make sense to me either).

And yes, the time conversion from standard years is equal to approximately 100 computer years.

[soybean]

My Spanish, art, and algebra teachers have already said they were going to attempt to utilize the MacBooks.

Can you explain how you need a computer for a foreign language, an art class, and an algebra class?  I just don't see why computers are needed for such  classes? 

I gather your school covers the expense of providing computers to students. Is that right? Considering the difficulty many schools have getting tax levys passed for funds they need for improvement and/or expansion of buildings, facilities, and programs, I'm sure many schools cannot afford to issue computers to all students.

Having a computer room/lab where students can have access to a computer when really needed for certain classes in one thing.  Providing to all students to take to every class is another thing; it's just not necessary, IMO.

[Calum]

I agree with soybean.
My old school (secondary school) had 6 computer rooms, for IT lessons and for general use (maths, making graphics, English, typing essays, etc).  They would never have been able to afford a laptop for each student, and I wouldn't expect them to.
I think giving out laptops to students is a waste of money myself.  A few computer rooms (or labs, as everyone else seems to call them) are, "necessary" - not absolutely necessary for everyday use, but in an increasingly technology-based world, definitely a very useful resource.
My current school (college) has a lack of computers.  I sit in my IT support course with 20 students, and 18 computers in one of the rooms we use.  How we're expected to network two computers each as we did last year I'm not sure - this year, they moved us into a different room and had us work in pairs instead, which I was less than impressed with.  We did have a smaller group last year though - due to budget cuts caused by the massive failure of an extension they built (the rooms lack air-con, with no opening windows that's not funny) they had to merge a lot of classes, leading to a friend of mine being in a Law class of 40 students.  They don't have enough chairs or tables for the class, so they kneel on the floor.
I know that's quite off topic, but I'm just making a point about education, albeit a slightly confused one.

[BC_Programmer]

I didn't even own a single computer until I was in grade 10.

But I did so well in my computer courses- my computer science teacher gave me four computers (two laptops and two desktops- older, of course. But better then my 286 . (BTW, this was in 2002, so the 286 wasn't state of the art by any means.)


In any case- the one thing I hate these days- is graphing calculators. Grade 12, it was pretty much just a lesson on how to use the TI-83. I thought we were learning math here, not how to get a scientific instrument to do it for us. sigh.


Unfortunately, the coursework is designed such that without a graphing calculator, you would use up a LOT of time and grid paper.


And when in the heckleson did Algebra become a separate course? I'd always had it integrated with Math 8, Math 9, Math 10, Math 11, and Math 12.

[computeruler]

windows FWT WOOT

[BC_Programmer]

sigh...

[Carbon Dudeoxide]

I myself think laptops for the whole school is also a bad idea.

First, they don't need to be used for every class. For example, most of the times I don't use my laptop in class and out of five lessons, I have it out probably once or twice the entire day.
Second, what's to stop everyone from playing games or going on websites they should?

It just confuses my why the school is willing to pay for 1200+ laptops when they could use the money to improve the crappy wireless network and all the failing computers and school.
Out of about 6 student printers in the school, only one works, and it never works properly.

[fireballs]

haha someone had the rediculous idea to give us a free Laptop at school, so i spent my business studies lessons emailing my mates... maybe that was less the schools fault but mine. Point being, i think the money could be spent better elsewhere.

FB

[reddevilggg]

My old school had one computer........a BBC............Bad Times

[computeruler]

i no people on my msn that always im me from school lol they are always on during school

[jill8beans2]

I agree teaching students how to use computers is a valuable tool, but it's not everything - there is a lot of education to be taught above and beyond how to maximaze the use of a computer.  Also, if student's education focused on the  use of computers, it would cause students to get lax on knowing how to do things manually, for example math, or spelling. 

I believe a laptop for every student would be a waste of time and money.  If the school is providing computers, it should be desktops in the classroom for which it is needed.  This would allow more students to be able to use them.  Plus, if each student had their own, it would encourage gaming and emailing during class time.  With classroom computers, the software on them is moderated.

If parents had to supply, it would put a lot of pressure on parents and cause segregation.

[Carbon Dudeoxide]

10,000 points to Jill8beans2.

Oh, and Welcome to ComputerHope.

[BC_Programmer]

So we're tied then?

[Carbon Dudeoxide]

You only have 1,000 points. 

[BC_Programmer]

oh yeah. darn.

[liambiscuit]

Sorry I havn't been able to check back in a while... Computer has been in a state of... inoperability. What if these computers we're filtered (which I know the ones at my school are going to, plus, as far as i know, no MSN on Macintosh's without third-party software)

i no people on my msn that always im me from school lol they are always on during school

But anyways.... My school is currently building a 4.7 million (bugeted) dollar gym. They can afford 1,200 MacBooks for 400 (current high-school count) students.

And when in the heckleson did Algebra become a separate course? I'd always had it integrated with Math 8, Math 9, Math 10, Math 11, and Math 12.

Not anymore, then. We call Math 8 "Eighth grade math" or sometimes "Pre-Al."  After that it goes Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, and... crud forgot what the last one was... Think it's Trig. Not sure.

I agree with soybean.
My old school (secondary school) had 6 computer rooms, for IT lessons and for general use (maths, making graphics, English, typing essays, etc).  They would never have been able to afford a laptop for each student, and I wouldn't expect them to.
I think giving out laptops to students is a waste of money myself.  A few computer rooms (or labs, as everyone else seems to call them) are, "necessary" - not absolutely necessary for everyday use, but in an increasingly technology-based world, definitely a very useful resource.

What if your school IS able to afford that? Our IT/Webmaster says there's 500 Mac's in a storage room somewhere on the grounds.

I agree, the labs ARE necessary. There is a list of who has the... I believe four... computer "labs" during the day. First come-first serve applies to the teachers when booking the labs. Problem is by the end of monday, all the labs are booked until Friday. One time, before the whole idea of buying the Mac's was thought up, we we're writing an essay about a time when you were stranded in the middle of nowhere... but that doesn't matter. The essay had to be typed or it wouldn't be accepted for a grade. I typed mine at home, which wasn't a problem, but it was for some of my classmates that don't own a computer. It took four days once we we're *ALL* finished writing for a whole 45 minutes in a lab.

The school pretty much didn't have enough labs for the amount of teachers/students needing to use the labs. (I think it adds up to 150 or so COMPUTERS STUDENTS CAN USE in the whole school. THat means Elementary, Jr. High, and High all have to compete. [The buildings are side-by-side and have halls connecting, so it's pretty much one building])

Then all these classes are competing for only FOURTY-FIVE MINUTES. That is *Hardly* enough, if not enough at all.

If we had more labs (or more computers in the labs) I would agree with many of you. What do you think now in this situation? Are LAPTOPS, Not necessarially Mac's, a necessity?

[Calum]

Hey ... my old school, with 1000 students, had about 100 desktop computers, in total, for students to use.  We got by just fine.

[liambiscuit]

wow. Lol

[Calum]

I really don't see why that's so amazing.
Yes, as I have said, computers are useful to have.  They are not the meaning of life, or education.

[liambiscuit]

EH. I was bored when I made this and I thought it would make a good topic. Plus the poll is a tie between "Windows XP, it's a need" and "It isn't a need"

[BC_Programmer]

The one time I submitted an Essay typed up- I was suspected of plagarizing. When I wrote the entire thing (well, paraphrasing it really) out by hand without looking at it, I think I convinced my teacher .

So I didn't write-up another essay on the computer until I was out of school.

And when in the heckleson did Algebra become a separate course? I'd always had it integrated with Math 8, Math 9, Math 10, Math 11, and Math 12.

Not anymore, then. We call Math 8 "Eighth grade math" or sometimes "Pre-Al."  After that it goes Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, and... crud forgot what the last one was... Think it's Trig. Not sure.

I'm in Canada. we learn Algebra in Grade 7, polynomials in 9, (or was it 10?) and I can't remember 10 really- but 11 and 12 was mostly graphing calc BS- what was funny was I got an A and all I had was a scientific most of the semester. I had two laptops during this time, but the only time they ever came out was during Info-Tech classes, and even then only for retrieving data that I had copied there for some reason.

But anyways.... My school is currently building a 4.7 million (bugeted) dollar gym. They can afford 1,200 MacBooks for 400 (current high-school count) students.

I'm trying to see the logic here, but I just don't. It's like saying, "I can afford this, so I can afford more" without taking into account any balances or anything. Even in the case that they can easily afford it- how does it benefit education?

Basically- I myself got by until grade 10 without a computer, and both 11 and 12 without a laptop, and still managed to make the honour roll while, IMO, coasting through the courses. So it becomes clear that even in courses oriented towards using a computer, one can easily get by without, if one has the proper initiative.

Obviously, then, the laptops benefit would fit the less scholastically inclined? No- can't say that either. The laptop would just be another distraction for them, another glowing light in their periphery preventing them from focusing on the task at hand, which likely only requires any computer use whatsoever because they have become accustomed to it from the beginning. The whole "Oh, no need to do that math in my head! Just use a calculator." mantra had me steamed from the beginning, because it teaches you to take tool-dependent shortcuts. If you take woodworking, they teach you how to use a hand drill before they let you loose on the drill press, despite being able to often do the work on the drill press easier. Why? Well, aside from likely having many more drills then drill presses, it teaches you the more "manual" method, rather then just the shortcut method. only THEN do they provide you with a shortcut method. Why? Because had they shown the shorter method first- there would be no initiative to even learn the more physically labourious method.  This applies in all Scholastic subjects as well. Be they Math, English, even art.

Basically- the problems you presented that the laptops would solve can just as easily be solved by investing that same money into another computer lab or two. Heck, if they have the funds available that you've hinted, add 3!

[liambiscuit]

But anyways.... My school is currently building a 4.7 million (bugeted) dollar gym. They can afford 1,200 MacBooks for 400 (current high-school count) students.

I'm trying to see the logic here, but I just don't. It's like saying, "I can afford this, so I can afford more" without taking into account any balances or anything. Even in the case that they can easily afford it- how does it benefit education?

Wasn't saying they could easially afford it, I meant 1200$ (appearantly I didn't put the dollar sign) MacBooks. Also wasn't saying that they bettered education.

Someone -- sorry not looking back to say who, such a big thread already -- said earlier that their school was unable to afford computers, and they got along fine without them. I was saying that my school can afford them and not all schools can.

- the problems you presented that the laptops would solve can just as easily be solved by investing that same money into another computer lab or two. Heck, if they have the funds available that you've hinted, add 3!

Yeah... Nontheless.

This is... depends on how you interpet it... might be off-(thread)-topic

I plan a career in the computer industry. I know VB solidly and parts of CPP and other languages. I can deconstruct and construct a whole computer part-by-part in an hour. (LINUX FTW. Had to slide that in, even though I'm using Windows ATM. Bit hypocritical, don't you think?) and, to me and the several computer classes I plan to take NEXT YEAR, it *WOULD* be a necessity. Not even a Laptop, but a computer, period. I can stay on topic. I can have 20 computer screens in one classroom and not be distracted by them... But that really depends on the student, doesn't it?

Plus your only counting the deficiencies about the computers. Can you think of anything BENEFICIAL?

[BC_Programmer]

I plan a career in the computer industry. I know VB solidly and parts of CPP and other languages. I can deconstruct and construct a whole computer part-by-part in an hour. (LINUX FTW. Had to slide that in, even though I'm using Windows ATM. Bit hypocritical, don't you think?) and, to me and the several computer classes I plan to take NEXT YEAR, it *WOULD* be a necessity. Not even a Laptop, but a computer, period. I can stay on topic. I can have 20 computer screens in one classroom and not be distracted by them... But that really depends on the student, doesn't it?

Plus your only counting the deficiencies about the computers. Can you think of anything BENEFICIAL?

Necessity, not particularly. In grade 10, when I first started getting into good ol' batch, my Computer science teacher gave me an old server computer. an 40Mhz 80386. I managed to get windows 3.1 and DOS 6 on it's massive 50MB hard drives. Did I mention this was in 2002? Because without a timeline, one cannot hope to understand how outdated the hardware was at the time.

Over the summer I learned VB2, which was also given to me. When I returned in September- I was already better (and he said it himself) at Visual Basic then he was.

Did I need a computer at all? well, that's a matter of opinion. I probably would have survived the summer with my 286, and simply played around with QBASIC.

At any rate- I merely have to argue your use of the word necessity, under any context.

Bear in mind that many computer college courses don't have a single computer in sight, and are done by hand. And- as far as programming is concerned, it let's you see the problem in a better light, one without the stressing flourescent overhead lamps, CRT screen casting a nightmarish shadow on the wall as it displays thousands of lines of spaghetti code generated in a flurry of creative fervor. problem being it has to be rewritten for maintenance purposes anyway, and so that time would have been better spent planning it out. And no... UML programs like Visio suck for this.

Wasn't saying they could easially afford it, I meant 1200$ (appearantly I didn't put the dollar sign) MacBooks. Also wasn't saying that they bettered education.

actually, without the dollar sign- it kind of looks like you meant for each student to have three laptops each. I never noticed that the first time though.


honestly- the benefits would probably only come to students like yourself who would use them for their intended purpose.

[Calum]

I plan a career in the computer industry. I know VB solidly and parts of CPP and other languages. I can deconstruct and construct a whole computer part-by-part in an hour.

At my secondary school, I also planned a career in the computer industry.  The only things we covered at school were MS Office and Serif DrawPlus.  I taught myself everything else I know (which isn't that much, I know) from magazines, Internet articles, and forums.  If I was to start on my PC now, I could have it taken apart in a few minutes, and back together almost as quickly.  But, who's counting?  It's the quality of the job that counts.  I make my living this way, so I need to be able to do this.
Point is, until I got to college I'd never used a computer, in the way I wanted to, at school.  At college, 90% of the stuff we do I've taught myself, and the rest I could teach myself if I was given a rough guide to what I'm required to do.  I'm not bragging - merely pointing out that even if my college had no computers, I don't think it would affect me very much, if at all.
My course, for anyone interested, is a BETC National Diploma for IT Practitioners: IT Systems Support.

[Carbon Dudeoxide]

Haven't read much of the above posts, but this One-Student-One-Mac thing was tested at our school for the last school term last year on the last Year 7's.
This year, one of the other ESF schools adopted this idea and an apple laptop is now part of their student's stationary.

For the 5 weeks they tested it in our school, the library was always full of year 7's playing games on their new laptops. I wonder what they did in class....

According to my IT teacher, in 6 weeks, over 300 mac laptops needed to be replaced. (Forgot the figures)

[liambiscuit]

According to my IT teacher, in 6 weeks, over 300 mac laptops needed to be replaced. (Forgot the figures)

Holy crap.

Looks like this thread is dead, so I'll add no more

Also looks like they AREN'T a necessity...
I'd like to argue but meh.

[paudashlake]

Haha  I'm in 8th grade too, and the computers at our school suck.  They are all 1.5ghz E-macs with 512mb ram.  they SUCKKK!

yuppp

 

[BC_Programmer]

Haha  I'm in 8th grade too, and the computers at our school suck.  They are all 1.5ghz E-macs with 512mb ram.  they SUCKKK!

yuppp

 

alright, let's have a contest: a 8.77Mhz IBM PC versus a Macintosh and a person! doing what? 10 digit addition!

WE've equipped the PC with a special speech synthesizer module for this dramatization.


first one to finish ten thousand wins!

IBMPC:PROCESSING...

Macintosh: PROCESSING...

Person: I forgot my pencil...

IBMPC: 25% complete

Macintosh: 25% complete

Person: aww, never mind, I'll just use a pen.

IBMPC: 50% complete
Macintosh:It looks like your processing numbers in a time constrained context. would you like help processing numbers? (no)
            45% complete

Person: Aww dang- does anybody have any white out?

IBMPC: Negative. 75% complete
Macintosh: 75% complete

person alright, carry the one...

IBMPC: Complete
Macintosh:Complete
Person: Almost finished a question.


the key point? Any computer will do math faster then a person can (memorized values notwithstanding)

IBMPC: Internal Stack Failure. System Halted.
Macintosh:Sorry, a system error has occured.
Person:did I win?

[Calum]

Haha  I'm in 8th grade too, and the computers at our school suck.  They are all 1.5ghz E-macs with 512mb ram.  they SUCKKK!

Why do they "SUCKKK!"?

[Dias de verano]

the key point? Any computer will do math faster then a person can (memorized values notwithstanding)

A (I suppose) philosophical point: I don't think that computers "do math" at all. They number crunch, which is different. The programmer "does the math". Mathematics is a mental activity. As Professor Searle said, computers don't have mental contents.

A computer can do calculations faster than a human can, but a computer can never "understand" what integration is, for example.

[computeruler]

Haha  I'm in 8th grade too, and the computers at our school suck.  They are all 1.5ghz E-macs with 512mb ram.  they SUCKKK!

Why do they "SUCKKK!"?

accually he computers are emacs and they vary in specs
1.) 1.25ghz power pc cpu 512mb ram
2.) 800 mhz power pc cpu 128mb ram (there are less of these after i told them to upgrade some lol)
3.) 800mhz power pc cpu 512mb ram
4.) 800mhz power pc cpu 760mb ram
i think

[BC_Programmer]

the key point? Any computer will do math faster then a person can (memorized values notwithstanding)

A (I suppose) philosophical point: I don't think that computers "do math" at all. They number crunch, which is different. The programmer "does the math". Mathematics is a mental activity. As Professor Searle said, computers don't have mental contents.

A computer can do calculations faster than a human can, but a computer can never "understand" what integration is, for example.

true, but look at the target audience. If I was to try to pass along the notion of computers and understanding; I don't think they would understand 

[Calum]

So ... why do these Emacs suck?

[computeruler]

they are slow and terrible. The power plug and power button placement suck. The power plugs are always falling out and when you tuen them on the power plug falls out. they are very very very very very slow.  Always getting that spinning color wheel of death lol.  One time i was uninstalling an addon and the whole computer screen went balck but the power light was on and it wouldnt come back on

[BC_Programmer]

I see where this is going.

No computers suck when compared to the potential time they can save with their functionality; this goes all the way back to the original IBM PC; although it's debatable wether it would be better to just handwrite that report rather then use PC-Write to print it on your daisywheel, the word processor functions just fine.

It's merely a matter of somebody taking the initiative to configure the software on the computer to properly meet the hardware specifications. Obviously these computers haven't been properly maintained.

a Well fed oxen will pull it's weight on the farm. a neglected oxen will likely become feed. wait; that doesn't make any sense in this context... oh well.

[computeruler]

well by the time neooffice opens on the computer you could be done handwriting it

[BC_Programmer]

well by the time neooffice opens on the computer you could be done handwriting it

missed my point entirely.

they just haven't been properly maintained, too much crap installed and fragmentation and so forth.

It has NOTHING to do with the OS; for a similar effect, install Windows 95 on a 386.

[mcxeb52!]

well having laptops are nice. but i'd wish in class teachers have assignments requiring the use of the computers so that you wouldn't just be emailing or doing something on the computer but actually doing something in class.

it gotta be fun and interactive though.....


I'd prefer windows only because windows has more software out there but mac's are not bad either 

[computeruler]

well i doubt those computers will ever be defraged
is is even possible to degfrag a mac!!??

[BC_Programmer]

of course it is. they have a hard drive and it can get defragmented. Not sure if the tool is included with Mac OS.

And as a side note, it hasn't always been included with windows Either. Windows 3.1, 3.11 and all the NT's up to 2000 didn't have a built in defrag. (although I suppose a case could be made for windows 3.1 and 3.11 since they ran over DOS which (usually) had it's own defragmenter.

[mcxeb52!]

I wondered why they said Linux was not needing defragmentation?

I was told Linux always autosorted files naturally so you'd always be having a defragmented drive without needing defragmenter. But windows doesn't autosort,,,, hmmm