Need help setting upIDE ribbons for hardware installation

[scadgirl007]

I have a general question. Is it possible to have both HDs connected on the same IDE cable?
The BIOS is set to auto detect, and is able to recognize the optical drives but not the HDs.  Is there anything I can do to fix this?

I looked up an article about IDE devices: http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000695.htm

Hopefully the following setup explanation isn't too confusing:

1. My computer was custom-built in 2003.  The prices are now low enough to get some upgrades, so that's what I've been doing.  The computer originally was installed with 1x40Gb HD, 1x 80GB HD, and 1xCD-burner.  I purchased a DVD-burner to install.
2. I switched out the currently installed optical drive for a newer drive (CD vs. DVD).  I then placed the CD-drive in a different spot.

3a. The IDE-1 ribbon had the OS HD and the optical drive.  The IDE-2 has the slave HD.  The cord was longer for the IDE-2, so I switched them around
3b. IDE-1 has the hard drives, IDE-2 has the optical drives.  The pin on the HD with the OS is marked "M" and the pin on the secondary drive is marked "S". Both optical drives are set to "S" (I know it might not be "S," but I looked up which one it needs to be set to for the slave.

5.  All of the drives are plugged in appropriately (power, IDE).  

[patio]

You did a very good job of describing your setup...
IDE 0 = Boot drive master
2nd hard drive = slave

IDE1 Burner1 = master
Burner2 = slave.

Sometimes the BIOS gets confused when making more than one change at a time... so set it up as you like and re-boot a few times between changes.

[scadgirl007]

You did a very good job of describing your setup...
IDE 0 = Boot drive master
2nd hard drive = slave

IDE1 Burner1 = master
Burner2 = slave.

Sometimes the BIOS gets confused when making more than one change at a time... so set it up as you like and re-boot a few times between changes.

Thanks for the help!  One question, could any of the problem be that the optical drives are both set to Slave?  Also, when you say to reboot a few times, does that mean if the BIOS doesn't detect the drives the first time it sets up, try it a couple of more times?

[patio]

Yes to both...
You need to set one of the opticals to master...this is probably where the errors are coming from.

Also the ribbon cable assignment although not crucial in all setups should be this:

II______________________________II_____ _____II

MBoard                                               Slave              Master.

[scadgirl007]

OKAY!  I originally had the HDs setup on the ribbon the way you illustrated. When it didn't work, I switched them around.  I'll fix that and fix the pins on the optical drives.  Let you know how it goes!

[scadgirl007]

I double-checked the setup.  Everything is as it should be.  However, I am now getting an NTDLR error.

Do you know if it matters which XP disc I use?  My boyfriend lost my XP home disc when trying to do a dual-boot on his Mac.  He bought me XP Pro, but I never upgraded the desktop.  Should it be the same for both versions?

I really appreciate all of the help, Patio!

[patio]

Yes the version needs to match what's installed.
PRO wont fix Home and vice-versa...
Is there an operating system installed on the 2nd HDD ? ?
If so temporarily disconnect it and the NTLDR error might go away so you can boot properly.
If you have Home installed you will need a Home CD to repair...

[scadgirl007]

My uncle installed the HD for me.  I don't think that there is an operating system installed, just used for storage.

Is there any way to just download the files that I need?  I know that there are only two.

[Geek-9pm]

Each cable can have one master and one slave device. Be sure to check the pin settings on each HDD. In some cases they are near impossible to understand. And some older HDDs are not compatible with another brand on the sane cable. And you may have to tell the BIOS which HDD is the boot drive.Try to boot first with the drive you want as the system drive. Then power off and plug in the second drive again and see if it can remember which is the boot drive. Some BIOS do not always default to the primary master. The is a mystery beyond the minds of us mortals. 

[JJ 3000]

My uncle installed the HD for me.  I don't think that there is an operating system installed, just used for storage.

Is there any way to just download the files that I need?  I know that there are only two.

What do you mean?
Are you saying that there are two files on that hard drive that you want to recover?
Do you want to install an operating system on the hard drive?

[scadgirl007]

Is there an operating system installed on the 2nd HDD ? ?

JJ 3000, I was replying to that specific sentence.  Sorry for being so vague.  The 80gb HD is my slave drive and is used specifically for storage; my uncle installed it for me two years after to initial computer was put together.  It does not have an OS installed, nor do I believe it's necessary.  Also, the files that I am referring to are the NTDLR and NTDETECT.COM files.

I decided to upgrade my computer.  I had to move around some of the components inside the computer for the IDE ribbons to plug into both sets of hardware (2 HDs and 2 optical drives).  Both hard drives were installed and working prior to the adjustments, along with the CD burner. [Original setup: IDE-1= HD Master, Optical Slave, IDE-2=HD Slave] I merely wanted to add a DVD burner in addition to the CD burner.

It took a couple of restarts, but the BIOS now recognizes both HDs appropriately: 40GB as Master and 80GB as Slave.  However, the problem that I am now encountering when booting is the following error:
NTLDR is missing
Press Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart

I've experienced this error previously on my laptop. (Please see post : http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php/topic,52510.0.html)  Yet the problem I encounter is time is as follows:
1) I don't have the original install disc for my computer.  As mentioned earlier, it was lost by my boyfriend a while ago.  He bought me XP Pro (what I have on my laptop) as a replacement.  The only thing I have for the boot disc is a copy I made before it was lost.  I can't use the XP Pro installation discs for the two files because (I think) Patio mentioned that it will not be compatible with the XP Home Edition on my desktop.
2)I enter the setup as instructed on the NTLDR article.  I enter the files names spelled correctly, unlike he first attempts of my last experience with this error.

3) I don't understand why I get the following error:
I type: C:\WINDOWS>copy d:\i386\ntdlr c:\
The response: Access is denied.

The computer will boot off off the OS copy with tremendous hassle and time investment. I have backed up all of the files. Since I have the official XP Pro discs for my laptop, I may resort to installing that instead of trying to recover my computer.

And for the gentle-user with the Toucan icon (After-9pm?), they are both Western Digital and have been installed with one another previously, although on seperate IDE cables.

P.S.
If this makes any difference: my computer was not keeping time or personalization, so I replaced the CPU 3v battery along with the other hardware adjustments.  Although, it still appears to be losing time.

[scadgirl007]

If this helps, the drives are arranged as follows:

A: 3 1/2 Floppy
C: Local Disk/40Gb HD
D: CD-R Drive
E: Disk2_VOL1/80Gb HD
F: DVD-R Drive
G: WD My Book Essential, 250Gb External USB HD

[JJ 3000]

I decided to upgrade my computer.  I had to move around some of the components inside the computer for the IDE ribbons to plug into both sets of hardware (2 HDs and 2 optical drives).  Both hard drives were installed and working prior to the adjustments, along with the CD burner. [Original setup: IDE-1= HD Master, Optical Slave, IDE-2=HD Slave] I merely wanted to add a DVD burner in addition to the CD burner.

You know, most DVD burners will also burn CDs. If I were you I would go back to having the hard drives on seperate IDE cables, with the main hard drive on it's own cable and the slave on the secondary. You should just put the DVD burner in the slave position on the secondary IDE cable. Make sure you check your jumper settings.

[JJ 3000]

P.S.
If this makes any difference: my computer was not keeping time or personalization, so I replaced the CPU 3v battery along with the other hardware adjustments.  Although, it still appears to be losing time.

Did you buy a NEW battery?

[scadgirl007]

The original set up had the CD-Rom on the first IDE cable... Anyway, I chose to have both optical drives since I was once told by someone who owns a computer repair shop that DVD lasers wear out more quickly than CD lasers.

YES, I did purchase a NEW battery from Best Buy.  At least it should have been new; it was in an unopened package that says it doesn't expire until 2013 or 2014.  (Can't remember which!)

JJ, if I may ask, do you have experience with this NTLDR error?  From my previous experience, nothing will actually help until the damaged boot file is replaced with one that is not damaged.  I am now most specifically seeking help on how to fix the corrupted boot drive.  Although, I may try to reconfigure the hardware setup tomorrow when I am more refreshed.  I am now tired, weary, and likely to make costly mistakes.

Thanks!

[JJ 3000]

T

JJ, if I may ask, do you have experience with this NTLDR error? 

Thanks!

As a matter of fact, I do. 99 times out 100 of a repair is called for. You will need your windows disk for this. Sometimes, however, a hardware change can give you those errors. I do operating system repairs and installs all of the time.

The fact that your CMOS is losing time would suggest that there is a problem with the hardware. the CMOS chip's time has nothing to do with the hard drive.

[scadgirl007]

99 times out 100 of a repair is called for. You will need your windows disk for this.

You may have only glossed over my very long post on the subject; I did try using a backup copy of the original Windows XP Home Edition OEM SP1 disc to perform a repair.  The only authentic OS disc currently in my possession is the XP Pro... I'm am too tired at this point to reiterate.  You can look back on it for reference.  Like I also previously mentioned, I am too tired to do anything with the hardware setup right now (I started working on this at 2pm yesterday afternoon and it is now 5AM the following day), but I am trying to cover all my bases in the event that switching up the hardware doesn't help.  Perhaps your extensive experience can offer some insight on the error, please? 

The fact that your CMOS is losing time would suggest that there is a problem with the hardware. the CMOS chip's time has nothing to do with the hard drive.

The computer has always had a problem with this.  The person who built my computer said the that other battery used in the pack had a similar issue and suggested that changing it might help.  They also mentioned the if the battery failed completely, the computer may not boot properly.  I mentioned it in case this may have been true and could have in some way contributed to why the main drive won't boot without the disc in the CD-ROM drive and some laborious effort.  According to the motherboard manual, there should be a pin setup that designates whether to keep the CMOS or delete each time.  This was not present on my board, however.

[JJ 3000]

Are you absolutely positive that your jumpers are in the correct positions?

If you are trying to do a repair on a desktop with a disk that came woth a laptop, then it might or might not work. Laptop manufacturers tweak their O.S. disks to work with that particular model. If i were you, I would try to borrow a disk from somone that has an original Microsoft install disk to do a repair. If you have home edition you will need a home edition disk.

[scadgirl007]

If you are trying to do a repair on a desktop with a disk that came woth a laptop, then it might or might not work. Laptop manufacturers tweak their O.S. disks to work with that particular model.

Let me reiterate: I bought an OEM version of Windows XP Home Edition SP1.  In case you might need more information, I bought a genuine Microsoft OEM at a computer trade show near Pittsburgh, PA, in August 2003.  To reiterate again: I made a back-up copy of that disc.  That back-up is what I'm using.

Once again, when my boyfriend misplaced the original disc in 2006, he purchased a boxed copy of XP Pro from Best Buy to replace the disc he misplaced, not realizing it was the wrong thing.  I kept it since that is the operating system installed on my laptop.  I have not used this when trying because one of the previous posters mentioned that even though they are the same file, it won't work because they are different versions.  (Besides, it doesn't matter if it's what I use on my desktop or laptop because it was a store purchase, not manufacturer specific.)

[I am adjusting my previous posts so that the information I keep repeating is standing out more.  I don't want to repeat anymore.  Thank you.]

Are you absolutely positive that your jumpers are in the correct positions?

And finally, yes, I have triple-checked the cable and pin set-ups.  They are correct.  BIOS recognizes the drives in the correct order but won't boot Windows because of the NTLDR error.  I'm thinking it will be better to reinstall the XP Home and then upgrade it to XP Pro (because it crashes a lot less).

I really do appreciate the help.  It's just a little frustrating I can't seem to fix the problem and that I have to repeat information previously typed multiple times.  Sorry if I come across as testy or rude.  I truly apologize.

[JJ 3000]

 

The computer will boot off off the OS copy with tremendous hassle and time investment

Are you sure that the boot order is set to the master CD drive first?
Are you placing the disk in the master drive?

Check this out
http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm

[scadgirl007]

When the computer starts to boot up, I press and hold the [Delete] key to enter the set up.

Standard CMOS Features
IDE Primary Master      [WDC WD400BB-00DEA0]
IDE Primary Slave      [WDC WD800BB-00DKA0]
IDE Secondary Master           [ATAPI   CD-RW 52XMax]
IDE Secondary Slave      [liTE-ON   DVDRW SHW-16]

Advanced BIOS Features
Quick Boot         [Disabled]
1st Boot Device      [CDROM]
2st Boot Device      [HDD-1]
3st Boot Device      [HDD-2]
Hard Disk S.M.A.R.T.   [Enabled]

I have also attached a PDF of what the screen looks like once it's past the main screen.  (I typed it in Excel and Saved it as a PDF.)


[Saving space - attachment deleted by admin]

[scadgirl007]

Are you placing the disk in the master drive?

Yes, I am placing it in the CD-ROM, not the DVD.

[scadgirl007]

I just finished thoroughly overlooking the link that you sent.

Rather than hitting "R" on that first screen, I hit "enter" to enter Windows XP setup.  It then detected an XP installation as damaged or corrupted.  I had the option to click "R" for repair.  It deleted the corrupted files, and is now copying the files.  *fingers crossed* We'll see how it goes this time!!! 

[scadgirl007]

Nope, still showing the same NTLDR error. 

I don't mind reinstalling the operating system because I don't really use any of the programs on this old desktop.  It wasn't connected to the internet and I used it mainly as a workstation.  However, I am in need of sending out my laptop for repair and decided to get the desktop up and running again.  Do you know of anything that I need to be specifically aware when reinstalling the OS?  Is it possible to upgrade now rather than reinstalling home and upgrading to pro?

[JJ 3000]

Oh man! You are having a really hard time with your computer. Lets try this:

Boot to the windows CD and press R to load the recovery console. It will ask you which installation you want to repair. If there is only one type 1 and press enter. Then it will ask for a passsword. If there is no pasword just press enter. At this point you should see this prompt: C: \Windows>
We want to get to root directory here so type in CD\
Now you should just see a standard C prompt. Here type this:

Code: [Select]

copy d:\i386\ntldrthen type

Code: [Select]

copy d:\i386\ntdetect.com That code assumes that your CD drive is D if it is another letter substitute the CD drive's letter.
I hope this helps. If it doesn't, let us know.

[scadgirl007]

Access is denied. is the message I received when trying to copy.  Just like before (Reply #10).

[scadgirl007]

Would a clean install be a good idea?  My reference: http://www.windowsxphome.windowsreinstall.com/installxpcdoldhdd/indexfullpage.htm

[patio]

As long as you have any data off of there you need a clean install is the way to go.
To make things go smoother try and collect all your drivers beforehand including MBoard drivers.

[JJ 3000]

Yes the clean install would be what I would do in you're situation. Although the fact that you cant repair the original installation may point to a corrupted hard drive. Do me a favor, if you can, run a hard drive diagnostics disk.
http://www.tacktech.com/display.cfm?ttid=287
Boot to the disk and let it check your hard drive for errors.

Also, if i were you, I would have each hard drive on separate cables. It will increase the speed and cause the BIOS less confusion on which drive to boot. I would put the primary HDD on the IDE 1 connector and make the CD drive the slave then Put the slave HDD on the secondary IDE connector and have the DVD as the slave on that ribbon.

The fact that your CMOS chip is still losing time worries me. There is probably a fundamental problem with the hardware that is going to keep causing problems for you.

When you do the install make sure you follow this order:
1. delete partitions
2. create a partition
3. format that partition

The first thing you want to do after the install is check device manager and install drivers. The next thing you should do is go to Microsoft update and get all of the updates that are available for your machine. Then set up the anti-virus software of you're choice and you should be good to go.

[JJ 3000]

Try this, set your operating system hard drive as master and plug it into the primary IDE controller without a slave. Set your CD drive as master and connect it to the secondary IDE controller witout a slave. Now you should just have one hard drive and one CD drive connected to your motherboard. Can you boot into windows now? Can you do a repair now?

[BC_Programmer]

Oh man! You are having a really hard time with your computer. Lets try this:

Boot to the windows CD and press R to load the recovery console. It will ask you which installation you want to repair. If there is only one type 1 and press enter. Then it will ask for a passsword. If there is no pasword just press enter. At this point you should see this prompt: C: \Windows>
We want to get to root directory here so type in CD\
Now you should just see a standard C prompt. Here type this:

Code: [Select]

copy d:\i386\ntldrthen type

Code: [Select]

copy d:\i386\ntdetect.com That code assumes that your CD drive is D if it is another letter substitute the CD drive's letter.
I hope this helps. If it doesn't, let us know.

Use the letter of your optical drive here, Scadgirl, since D: would refer to your second HD. recovery console only allows access to the root of the boot drive and the System folders.

[scadgirl007]

Actually, you'll be surprised to know that D:/ is the CD-Burner.  No, really, it is!  My uncle was surprised this happened when he installed the second hard drive.  He warned me, "Your drive letters are going to change."  Then, the boot drive stayed the same, the CD-Burner stayed the same, and the new hard drive became E.  Don't know what happened but that's what did.

As you may have previously read, I can get the computer to boot with the CD in the drive but not without it.  I went into my computer to get the information listed in one of my earlier replies:

A: 3 1/2 Floppy
C: Local Disk/40Gb HD
D: CD-R Drive
E: Disk2_VOL1/80Gb HD
F: DVD-R Drive
G: WD My Book Essential, 250Gb External USB HD

Anyway, I tried to boot with the CD but this time it's entering the installation phase???  I guess I somehow initiated for a new install.  I don't care at this point.  I just want to be able to boot without the CD in the drive!  I have work this afternoon and will likely not be able to post back on what happens, so I'll let ya'll know tonight sometime after 7PM EST.

Still appreciate all of the suggestions! Thanks 

[scadgirl007]

I have a feeling that not all of the files made it to the disc when I made a backup copy.    It's having trouble finding the files it needs to install from the i386 folder.

Is there a way to scrap this installation of Home Edition and install Professional instead?  I still have the actual/genuine/authentic discs for that one...

UPDATE:  My last post before I leave for work.  I was thinking about it.  Could I change my slave drive--that doesn't have any OS installed-- to master (and master to slave) in order to install XP Pro, then reformat the other drive once that is done?

Any ideas of what would be best are greatly welcomed.  I don't care if I have to wipe my system.  I want to be able to use my desktop.  Period.  No matter what it takes.

[BC_Programmer]

you would need to perform a clean install- you would lose all program settings via that method. On the other hand, it should boot properly.

You will also need to acquire the drivers for your motherboard,graphics... and most importantly, your network interface card.

the activation should work as well- since you have previously said you never used it, and rather kept it since your laptop had pro.

as a side note- after installation- I recommend proceeding to disk management to make the drive letters less jumbled. XP doesn't move drive letters around- this caused problems with 98 and so forth, what with different applications referring to D: as the CD-ROM drive in their configuration, and then one day the D: drive would suddenly be a HD, and not the optical drive.

Of course- keeping them the way they are shouldn't cause any problems.

[JJ 3000]

Unplug your external HD before you wipe it out. I made the mistake of wiping out an external one time! 200 gigs of data, lost!

[scadgirl007]

you would need to perform a clean install- you would lose all program settings via that method. On the other hand, it should boot properly.

  Losing setting is not a big concern for me.  The desktop was used mainly through college as a workstation. (I wouldn't hook it up to the internet so that I could sit down and concentrate on assignments! )

You will also need to acquire the drivers for your motherboard,graphics... and most importantly, your network interface card.

My motherboard is a Delta Series K7N2, MS-6570; The manual states it's version 1.3, G52-M6570XA-L03. I have a disc titled "NForce Platform Drivers & Utilities."  I think that is it.  The website for my motherboard: http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=K7N2-L&class=mb   Once everything is installed, I will choose the live update version to flash the BIOS.

As of 9:20PM EST, I am starting to install the Pro.  Will let you know how it goes.

As always, thank you kindly for the assistance!

UPDATE:  I don't know what it going on.  There is something wrong; I am getting a lot of errors associated with the installation process.
1) Setup was unable to verify drive C:. Your computer may not have enough memory to examine the drives, or your windows XP CD may contain some corrupted files.  I clicked ENTER to continue with the installation.
2) Setup cannot copy the file: driver.cab
3) Setup cannot copy the file: netsetup.exe
4) Setup cannot copy the file: layout.inf
5) Setup cannot copy the file: ntfs.sys
6) Setup cannot copy the file: ntprint.inf
And all of this with and authentic, store-bought copy of XP Pro.   

It said that it completed installation successfully, but then when the computer restarts, the following error shows up: Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt: System32\Drivers\Ntfs.sys
You can attempt to repair this file by starting Windows Setup using the original Setup CD-ROM.

I feel like an old car with a broken axl stuck in the mud during a torrential downpour.  My back-up installation for XP Home turned out to be missing files, then my authentic XP Pro also has missing files.  And it's not even like I can get support for XP any longer.  I don't have the money to upgrade my computer to run Vista.  Just don't. 

UPDATE 2: I did a manual browse of the CD.  The files are there!  I can't figure out why the computer can't access them for set up.

[scadgirl007]

 ???IDEA:  Could it possibly work to copy the i386 folder from my current Win XP Pro installation and just use that in conjunction with the XP Pro install disc since it can't read?  I'm just brainstorming to create some sort of solution...

[BC_Programmer]

an i386 folder isn't installed with an XP installation. If it exists on your drive- it was likely placed there at some point manually.

[scadgirl007]

The copy error information on the XP CD said to manually transfer it if there are files having trouble transferring.

I've tried to install 3 times from the XP Pro disc.  It won't work either.  I got the furthest with the XP Home disc, because I could at least get to the part where it would ask me to select the language before it would have copy file error.

Is there anything I can do to save this desktop?  My brain nearly exploding over this issue.

[JJ 3000]

UPDATE:  I don't know what it going on.  There is something wrong; I am getting a lot of errors associated with the installation process.
1) Setup was unable to verify drive C:. Your computer may not have enough memory to examine the drives, or your windows XP CD may contain some corrupted files.  I clicked ENTER to continue with the installation.
2) Setup cannot copy the file: driver.cab
3) Setup cannot copy the file: netsetup.exe
4) Setup cannot copy the file: layout.inf
5) Setup cannot copy the file: ntfs.sys
6) Setup cannot copy the file: ntprint.inf
And all of this with and authentic, store-bought copy of XP Pro.   


  I can't figure out why the computer can't access them for set up.

I've had this problem before. It turned out that the CD drive was dirty. I just swapped it out with  a good CD drive and the install went smoothly. Seeing as how the DVD drive is brand new you should set that as the master and try and install from that new drive. Make sure you are grounded before touching any internal components!
It could also be that your CD is dirty or scratched. Give it a look, and if it looks bad polish it.
Trust me this will work.

This might also be why the repair failed.

The problem started when you decide to install that new drive. Are you absolutley positve that you did not get your two hard drives confused? Could you have accidentally placed the slave HD in the master position?

Did you try this?

Try this, set your operating system hard drive as master and plug it into the primary IDE controller without a slave. Set your CD drive as master and connect it to the secondary IDE controller witout a slave. Now you should just have one hard drive and one CD drive connected to your motherboard. Can you boot into windows now? Can you do a repair now?

I know this is a moot point, now that you have formatted your hard drive, but I would like to know if you even tried that suggestion before you wiped out your hard drive.

[scadgirl007]

Once the computer started recognizing the hard drives, it showed the 40GB as the master (how it was originally).  I could get into the operating system only if the system disc was in the drive.  I'm not sure I'm going to have time to look at this all again until Monday because of today being Thanksgiving and going out of state Friday through Sunday to see a family member.  I'm going to try it with just the DVD player installed, and let you all know how it goes.

I still appreciate the responses.

Very happy Thanksgiving to you all!

[patio]

Same to you....Enjoy !

[scadgirl007]

Okay, here it goes...

1)  I changed the hardware setup.  40 GB HD on IDE-1 as Master, DVD-Burner on IDE-2 as Slave.
2) Setup appears to have completed, however,
3) I wasn't asked insert the drivers disc with Pro installation; I was with the Home installation.  Will this make any difference?

Thanks for all the help and support!

[patio]

No.
Just re-boot and run the MBoard driver CD...
And any add-on equipment you may have such as a video card or sound card etc...
But MBoard drivers should always go first.

[JJ 3000]

The first thing you should do is make sure all of your drivers loaded. Click Start then Run and type in: devmgmt.msc    Do you see any yellow question marks? If so, then you will need a driver for that device. The very next thing to do is go to Windows update and get all of the updates that are available for your machine, You will have to restart a few times but just keep going back untill it stops finding updates. Then install the anti-virus of your choice and you should be good to go.