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Author Topic: harddrive issue  (Read 10644 times)

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squall_01

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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 03:59:19 PM »
    so there isnt like a program that I could run a try an fix it?  I tried useing check disk when it was hooked up to a as a slave nothing, I get 0x000000ce when attempting the 2k install.
    Windows 7 RC Tester.  Working on it.  Your monitor says etchasketch on the side!

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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 04:10:01 PM »
    Sorry I'm late. The original post said:
    Quote
    I have to move important files off it.
    How did we get from there to formatting the drive?
    Did he get the files off?

    Best bet is the XCOPY thing.
    And expect it to be an overnight job.

    Otherwise, why even bother? Throw the drive in the trash.
    Or sell it to somebody you really dislike. But that would be a
    very cruel thing to do.  :o

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 06:06:30 PM »
    Sorry I'm late. The original post said:
    Quote
    I have to move important files off it.
    How did we get from there to formatting the drive?

    Simple: he got the files off and wants to install W2K on the very same drive.


    well it seems like I got all the files off that I could that were not corrupted.  I seem to have issues with installing the os win 2k.  But all is in good working order for the most part.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 06:52:12 PM »
    Quote
    issues with installing the os win 2k.  But all is in good working order for the most part.
    So what is this? are you playing this game:

    Code: [Select]
    Begin;
     Find bad area on drive
     Partition good area, format it
     Install an OS
     If OK
        Sell it to a sucker  ELSE   PUT IT ON EbAY
    END.

    If you have any respect for the dead you would
    give this Hard Drive a proper burial.
      :(

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 07:13:57 PM »
    Quote
    issues with installing the os win 2k.  But all is in good working order for the most part.
    So what is this? are you playing this game:

    Code: [Select]
    Begin;
     Find bad area on drive
     Partition good area, format it
     Install an OS
     If OK
        Sell it to a sucker  ELSE   PUT IT ON EbAY
    END.

    If you have any respect for the dead you would
    give this Hard Drive a proper burial.
      :(


    ::)

    a chkdsk /r would find and flag bad sectors; if they even exist.

    you cannot just "partition the good area" since chances are that the bad sectors are throughout.

    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    Geek-9pm


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #20 on: January 13, 2009, 10:42:42 PM »
    Quote
    you cannot just "partition the good area" since chances are that the bad sectors are throughout.
    I was not recommending that he should!
    The hard drive belongs in the trash can!
    Do I have to draw a picture? 

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #21 on: January 14, 2009, 12:04:54 AM »
    bad sectors don't mean a drive is unusable; nor does it mean that it's facing impending failure.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    Geek-9pm


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #22 on: January 14, 2009, 10:17:02 AM »
    Quote
    bad sectors don't mean a drive is unusable; nor does it mean that it's facing impending failure.

    Perhaps.

    Back to the problem of installing win 2K on a suspect drive.
    Here is a method I have used and it is as good as any. You do not know where the bad sectors are. If they are all over the drive, you do not want to go any further. Assume the bad are is in the first 500 MB, more or less. The reason for this becomes apparent later. Using either the Win 2K install disk, or some other partition manager, set up the drive so that the first 500 Mb is free space. Have just one NTFS partition on the drive. make it 10 to 40GB. In this case smaller is better. It the drive is in fair condition, the odds of having anything bad in the small partition right after the 500 MB is very small. If the drive is in other wise fatr condition. Any drive with more than a very, very small amount of bad sectors is not worth the bother.  The system will perform much better is all te bad sectors turn out to be in an unallocated are of the disk. That is why we pick a a small 10 GB area the does not include the are formerly used by the OS, which is the first 500MB for win 2K.
     If you can get the 10GB partition to format with no flaws, and if win 2k does a neat clean install, then maybe you have a disk that si at least usable, but you still do not yet know the quality of its integrity. You can then try to create a another partition and test it for errors.
    You can not assume that just locking out a few bad sectors is all it takes to restore a used drive to perfect condition. That is not so. The windows install program itself will format the drive, if you let it, and it can map out a few bad sectors. When the install program fails or stalls, you likely have had a massive drive failure.

    OK, that is the procedure.  8)

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #23 on: January 14, 2009, 01:39:24 PM »
    bad sectors are flagged. even if they are present within a partition they will not be used.

    Quote
    You can not assume that just locking out a few bad sectors is all it takes to restore a used drive to perfect condition

    why not? it's the unflagged bad sectors that cause problems.

    once a chkdsk /r is performed, they will be flagged.

    If however, running that same command later reveals more bad sectors, it's safe to say one of several things:

    PSU problem (especially if this happens with new hard drives)

    Drive failure  (flawed head actuator or read/write mechanism, or repeated head crashes causing physical damage)


    If the drive sounds different then it used to, then it's likely on it's way out, as well.


    I personally used a 2GB drive for over 6 years; it developed about 200K of bad sectors, but it worked for the remaining 5 years quite flawlessly, up until I got an entirely new PC.


    Additionally, there is a possibility that there actually aren't any "real" bad sectors on the disk, and what the OS previously flagged as bad sectors was caused by software/hardware environment fluctuations. As an example, sometimes a hot, running hard drive will take longer to seek/read data. If it takes too long, most error checking procedures mark that area of the drive as bad.

    it goes without saying, of course- it's best to run with a drive that doesn't have any bad sectors.


    What was used to "Low-level format"?
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #24 on: January 14, 2009, 04:23:01 PM »
    Code: [Select]
    why not? it's the unflagged bad sectors that cause problems.
    once a chkdsk /r is performed, they will be flagged.

    That would suggest that the Windows 2000 installer forgot something and the people who designed it had never heard of bad sectors and they did not know that checkdsk would fix it.

    False ior missleading nformation.


    In this current context we are talking about a used drive whose history is unknown and it failed to allow an install of Windows 2000.

    Contrary to what you may think, The Windows 2000 CD install program does not ignore bad sectors if you ask for a full format. Did he do that?

    Bad sectors are caused by wear and/or materiel failure over time. A few bad sectors might be a oddity and not a precursor to failure.

    The is no solid evidence that bad sectors 'just happen' and that is is alright to have a lot of them.

    Locking out a bad sector is a part of the current state of the art in HDD design. The major drive manufacturers have set design parameters for this inside the HDD firmware. It does not require intervention by a user or even a factory trained technician. When it fails, your retire it.

    BC, here is a question for you. If and when you want retread tires for you car, or RV, would you do it yourself in the kitchen? 

    Did you read my post? Do you really want to flag all the bad sectors in an allocated area.?  I have done this un allocate trick with drives that have had over 20 bad sectors in a small area. It works in that case.

    To map out that many sectors is a bad practice unless you find that can all be in an unallocated area. Mapping out a number of sectors in an area that is to be used increase the statistical odds for failure.  They may be other weak sectors.. A sector  does not have some kind of individual protection to keep it from not having the same problem as the sector before, after or either side of it. If the head hit the platter, it will damage a number of sectors in the same area, some worse that others. If a bit of debris gets under the head for a millisecond the same kind of problem happens. If a small bit of the the media is pulling away from the substrate, many  sectors will be lost. Along with others nearby because the media is now distorted. Without a microscope, you do not know what made the sectors fail. If, and only if, a few sectors are bad, we may assume that the damage or failure was very small and localized. What we do not know is how much damage was done to the had. And we do not know if the head will suffer more damage when it has to pass over the damaged area. We may reduce this problem by not locating any space in that area. If we find that the problem seems to be in a small area.

    The checkdsk program is an excellent tool I can help you recover a failing system. It is not a long-term cure for the underlying problem. The problem might occur again at any time. The disk diagnostic programs that run on personal computers are not the ones we use in the magnetic media industry. We use methods to detect weakness in the recording media even when it is not visible in a basic test. A drive with a portly prepared and tested media will fail.

    The practical answer.
    Good, refurbished HDDs can be found in the Internet. If you are sure of the vendor's reputation these drives may run for a couple of years with no problem. And they are very cheap now.

     For Windows 2000 even 20GB is plenty. This drive here has a size of about 19GB and even with all the stuff I could think of it has about 8GB free. Wanna sew a picture?
    http://geek9pm.com/disk_man.png
    You will see I have left 94 MB to be un allocated at the start. So my win 2k is not on that area. And the disk head does not have to travel over that area until spin down time.

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #25 on: January 14, 2009, 05:11:25 PM »
    I have a feeling you aren't even aware what "mapping" bad sectors means.
    It's part of the filesystem. NTFS and FAT keep a list of bad sectors, and they dont use them. Remapping is the action of detecting a bad sector, recovering the data from that sector and storing it in another sector(a spare sector, which most drives have especially for bad sectors(thus the S.M.A.R.T register for "spare sectors"). The list prevents that sector from ever being used again.

    Since it's part of the file system, formatting means the list needs to be rebuilt. Additionally, since a Low level format was performed, the Servo information that stored bad sectors of the drive from manufacture (yes, that's right- almost all hard drives have bad sectors. You just don't see them because the drive logic board omits them from all software level information.


    Code: [Select]
    why not? it's the unflagged bad sectors that cause problems.
    once a chkdsk /r is performed, they will be flagged.

    That would suggest that the Windows 2000 installer forgot something and the people who designed it had never heard of bad sectors and they did not know that checkdsk would fix it.

    the windows installer doesn't run the chkdsk utility with the /r switch. It would take too long. It's not because they "forgot" something, but rather because they didn't think people would like waiting 3 or 4 hours to install windows.


    Additionally, you cannot exclusively leave all the sectors adjacent to the damaged sector unpartitioned. While you can omit adjacent sectors on teh same track easily, doing so for sectors on the tracks adjacent to the track of the damaged sector would involve partitioning into several different partitions.

    Since using chkdsk /r was suggested to flag all current bad sectors and keep them from being used, I don't see what particular benefit omitting a "known bad area" of a drive would do when in fact it's not really omitting a "known bad area" since a hard drive isn't a long sequential tape. Sectors that aren't sequentially labelled via LBA are still adjacent, since they are present on different tracks.

    It's only when a drive has started accumulating lots of bad sectors, fairly suddenly, or that you've finally exhausted the spare sectors pool, that it is time to worry, and replace the drive. These symptoms are usually caused by a head crash which has physically scratched a platter or its oxide coating in one area, or eventual stress causing flaking of the oxide coating in one area. Repeated attempts to format or recover data from the area can actually cause the drive to fail faster, as the head is moved into the damaged area of the platter, often intensively, trying to read data, or repair the sector map. If you can just mark out the suspect sector, and never go there again, the drive may actually work a long while without further degradation. This happy result, of course, is more likely, if the bad area isn't in the middle of a platter, where the head has to physically traverse the area repeatedly on its way to further inner or outer tracks, even once it has been marked out. Head servos are good at jumping small defect areas, but not perfect, and if the flaking is across several radially contiguous sectors of the platter, the drive will continue to fail in operation, no matter what clever remap schemes are used, simply because the head servo can't jump the heads out of the way fast enough to get around the damage.

    Quote
    I get 0x000000ce when attempting the 2k install.

    Squall- if your still there (lol) does the BSOD give you a filename?
    Quote
    Stop 0x000000CE or DRIVER_UNLOADED_WITHOUT _CANCELING_PENDING_OPERATIONS - This Stop message occurs when you install a faulty device driver or system service, the driver failed to cancel pending operations before exiting.


    The most humourous part of all if this is that Squall said "corrupted sectors" which could be something entirely different from "bad sectors".  :-\

    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #26 on: January 15, 2009, 10:07:23 AM »
    Quote
    It's only when a drive has started accumulating lots of bad sectors, fairly suddenly, or that you've finally exhausted the spare sectors pool, that it is time to worry, and replace the drive. These symptoms are usually caused by a head crash which has physically scratched a platter or its oxide coating in one area, or eventual stress causing flaking of the oxide coating in one area. Repeated attempts to format or recover data from the area can actually cause the drive to fail faster, as the head is moved into the damaged area of the platter, often intensively, trying to read data, or repair the sector map. If you can just mark out the suspect sector, and never go there again, the drive may actually work a long while without further degradation. This happy result, of course, is more likely, if the bad area isn't in the middle of a platter, where the head has to physically traverse the area repeatedly on its way to further inner or outer tracks, even once it has been marked out. Head servos are good at jumping small defect areas, but not perfect, and if the flaking is across several radially contiguous sectors of the platter, the drive will continue to fail in operation, no matter what clever remap schemes are used, simply because the head servo can't jump the heads out of the way fast enough to get around the damage.
    Well written! And Right! 

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 04:40:27 PM »
    thanks  ;D

    if it was known that they were all at the front (or the end) of the drive, then your method of omitting that area from the partition table would work fine.

    but a chkdsk /r with a formatted filesystem could find those bad sectors and thus (with some kind of drive map utility) be used to assist with deciding how one would go about it.

    and I just realized who the OP was and realized that none of our advice will be heeded anyway. Oh well. It was a good conversation.  :)


    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #28 on: January 15, 2009, 06:20:41 PM »
    Quote
    and I just realized who the OP was and realized that none of our advice will be heeded anyway. Oh well. It was a good conversation.  Smiley
    What do you mean ? Who was he?
    Was that Steve Jobs? (He is on leave now.)  8)

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: harddrive issue
    « Reply #29 on: January 15, 2009, 06:36:21 PM »
    Quote
    and I just realized who the OP was and realized that none of our advice will be heeded anyway. Oh well. It was a good conversation.  Smiley
    What do you mean ? Who was he?
    Was that Steve Jobs? (He is on leave now.)  8)

    Squall_01
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.