Welcome guest. Before posting on our computer help forum, you must register. Click here it's easy and free.

Author Topic: Power surges and lightning  (Read 22448 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gizmologist

    Topic Starter


    Beginner

    Thanked: 9
    Power surges and lightning
    « on: June 13, 2009, 03:17:49 PM »
    There was a recent post about lightning- induced damage an the supposition that the LAN port was possibly fried. Definite possibility.

    I strongly urge everyone to do a few things to help prevent a lightning or power surge. dropout system failure.


    First, I suggest that you look at the telephone  demarc on your home. That is the incoming connection from the Telco to your phone jacks. If you have an older home or apartment, you should have the phone company come out to verify the device is still functioning properly and that a good earth ground is firmly attached.  As this is NOT consider3ed a trouble call, you will most likely have to pay for the service call. Current electrical codes do NOT permit a water pipe(hose bib) to be used for a ground for the phone line or the houses electrical panel. A certified copper clad ground rod MUST be used.

    Second, if you use an outlet strip for your computer hardware, be sure it is a high quality surge protected style. Look for the highest "joule" rating on the various styles. In addition, a good solid earth ground at the outlet from the home's load center (breaker panel) is a must.  If you plug a grounded surge protector outlet strip into an ungrounded outlet or the ground is not sufficient, you have just wasted your money.

    Next you should have a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) sized to handle the CPU and all the ext drives you use. In addition good quality UPS (APC for example) will have RJ 11 and or RJ45 feed through jacks to connect the incoming phone line and the ethernet output of a DSL or cable modem. These add to the surge protection provided by the TELCO and or the cable company. Many UPS units also RF feed-thrus for a coax cable connection.  The UPS should also have a USB cable to connect it to your computer along with a CD. This connection allows the computer to be safely shut down by the UPS if necessary.

    The CPU and drives should be connected to the "auto back up" outlets and the monitor should be connected to the "surge only" outlets.

    Another neat thing about these is that if you are prone to brownouts or your power for the computer takes a dip when the AC kicks on, you will now have steady clean power to the puter.

    Spend a little now and save on a new mobo and a lot pf aspirin.

    patio

    • Moderator


    • Genius
    • Maud' Dib
    • Thanked: 1769
      • Yes
    • Experience: Beginner
    • OS: Windows 7
    Re: Power surges and lightning
    « Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 03:38:37 PM »
    Good info.
    I can't tell you how many machines i've seen DOA and were resuscitated by simply replacing the modem/network cards...
    They seem to take the first hit.
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    westom



      Intermediate

      Thanked: 8
      Re: Power surges and lightning
      « Reply #2 on: June 13, 2009, 07:35:56 PM »
        A typically destructive surge seeks earth ground.  For example, a surge is a connection from clouds to earthborne charges some miles distant.  A lightning strike to wires on the street may find earth via your AC mains service, household appliances, to earth.  That is called surge damage.  That is they type of surge that overwhelms protection inside appliances.

        All appliances contain surge protection which makes most every surge irrelevant.  But the rare and typically destructive surge overwhelms internal protection.   Will some surge protector stop what three miles of sky could not?  Retail stores will say that.  Will that silly few hundred joules absorb surges of hundreds of thousands of joules?  Of course not.

        A surge that does not enter the building does not find earth destructively via appliances.  That is how surge protection was installed even 100 years ago.  Either massive energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth.  Or that energy enters a building, destructively hunting for other paths to earth.  Your choice.

      Do you stop or absorb what even three miles of sky could not?  Of course not.  So how does your telco, with computers connected to overhead wires all over town, have no surge damage?  Is telephone service down for four days all over town while they replace that computer?   Of course not.  Telcos use the same 100 year old concept.   Every wire in every cable connects short to earth before entering the CO.

        A protector is not protection.  Protection is what a protector connects to.  Earth ground dissipated all that energy.  A protector either makes a low impedance connection to earth OR the protector must somehow stop that surge.  Telcos do not use plug-in protectors for one simple reason.  All but no earth ground.  AND it does not even claim to provide that protection.

        Telco also installs a ‘whole house’ protection on every subscriber’s interface – the NID box.  But again, that protector is only as effective as what will absorb direct lightning strikes.   That means a ground wire from the NID must be short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp wire bends, separated from all other non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit, no splices, etc.  Each requirement simple but critical for a low impedance (not low resistance) connection to earth.

        Why is an AC wall receptacle safety ground not earth ground?  See those requirements for low impedance?  Safety ground wire violates virtually every requirement for effective earthing.

        A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  IOW each protection layer is defined by one thing – a single point ground.  No matter how many protectors are installed; if all connect to the same earthing electrode, then only one protection layer exists.  That which absorbs surge energy defines the layer.

        Single point earth ground is the same principle that makes your telco’s CO protection so effective.  Cable TV wire also must drop down to also make that short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to earth – before entering the building.  Cable TV and satellite dish are connected directly to earth.  No protector required.

        Telephone and AC electric require a protector to connect to earth.  Telco provides one for free because that protector is so inexpensive and so effective.  Any protector without earthing (ie on a UPS) would do nothing except degrade phone service (especially DSL).   But a source of most destructive surges is AC mains.  Wires highest on utility poles (most often struck) make a direct (destructive) connection to all household appliances.  Worse, most all homes have no ‘whole house’ protector – have all but no surge protection.

        What is typical modem damage?  Incoming on AC mains.  Through computer and modem.  Out to earth ground via a phone line.  First a surge current flows in everything in a path from cloud to earth.  Then something in that path fails.  Typically destroyed part was a PNP transistor that drives an off-hook relay.  It suggests the amount of experience and technical knowledge behind this post. Many lightning damaged modems were repaired, and still working even 10+ years later.  We followed the surge path, then fixed damaged parts.  In every case, the damaged part was in a path from cloud to earth.

        Earth a ‘whole house’ protector from one of many responsible companies such as General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, Leviton, Keison, Siemens, etc.  A Cutler-Hammer ‘whole house’ protector sells in Lowes for less than $50.  That will connect an incoming surge to earth.   Quality of and connection to earth determines protection.  Earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements.  One indication that your home may be earthed for human safety but not sufficiently for surge protection.

         A breaker box ‘whole house’ protector would be earthed by a bare copper 6 AWG (quarter inch) wire from breaker box to an earth ground rod.  If that wire travels up over the foundation and down to earth, then higher impedance is created.  That wire must go through the foundation and down to earth.   To make it shorter, to eliminate sharp wire bends, to separate it from other wires, etc. 

       Lower impedance is how to make a connection to earth – shorter, no sharp bends, etc.  High impedance is why plug-in protectors have all but no earth ground.  Why plug-in protectors must stop what three miles of sky could not.  Why any facility that must never suffer surge damage does not use power strip and UPS protectors.  Why protection means being fanatical about earthing.

        Above only discussed secondary protection.  What defines each protection layer?  The one thing that every layer must have – earth ground.  Home owners should also inspect their primary protection system:
         http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

        View manufacturer numeric specs for that plug-in protector.  Show us the numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge.  Noted earlier: all appliances contain surge protection.  Any protection provided by that power strip protector (and near zero protection provided by a UPS) is made irrelevant by protection inside appliances.  Notice, no manufacturer specs claim that protection.

        How to identify ineffective protectors:  1) It has no dedicated wire for that always essential ‘less than 10 foot’ connection to earth.  2) Manufacture even avoids all discussion about earthing.   That defines most every power strip and plug-in UPS.

        And finally, is a more expensive protector better?  Do you view the price or learn the science?  Science is what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.  Meanwhile, a $7 grocery store protector has the same circuit found in a $150 protector sold in Best Buy.   Monster Cable (same company that sells speaker wire with polarity for maybe $70) locates obscenely profitable markets.  Most expensive protector comes from a company with a long reputation selling scams?  That is what some have claimed.

        Do you spend $150 for each appliance including dishwasher, clock radio, and bathroom GFCIs?  When damage is never an option, a ‘whole house’ protector is installed for about $1 per protected appliance.  Price does not define quality – once we learn how these things really work.  Spend tens or 100 times less money for protection that actually works.  Do hundreds of joules stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?  Does a power strip or UPS stop what three miles of sky could not?  Retail salesmen make that claim.  But then appreciate their profit margins.  A $7 solution selling for as much as $150 because it has fancier paint.

        The informed consumer buys a solution well proven for over 100 years.  That is required by the US Air Force.  That is defined by the Sun Microsystems guide for server installations.  That has been routine so that munitions dumps suffer direct lightning strikes without explosions.   Spend less money for the well proven and superior solution.  Then upgrade what provides protection:  earth ground.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

      Gizmologist

        Topic Starter


        Beginner

        Thanked: 9
        Re: Power surges and lightning
        « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2009, 05:00:43 PM »
        Well aside from repeating yourself numerous times, a lot of your post is unfortunately incorrect.

        For instance. The NEC does not permit grounding conductors (not the neutral) from an electrical load center to be connected in any way to the foundation of a building. The grounding electrode must be sized to the service, copper clad, and driven to a depth of at least 8 ft. The Grounding electrode is no longer to be connected to the water pipe system of the home. This was the practice in earlier years but resulted in numerous severe shock hazards.

        The power surges caused by direct lightning hits along the power line are grounded (earthed) to a great extent by the power companies intrinsic grounding methods an systems. There is no home based system capable of deflecting the several million volts and 50 thousand amps of a direct lightning strike.

        The surges usually found on single phase drops into homes are caused by fluctuations in the load factor on the line supplying the local  transformers as well as those transformers being driven to max load capacity where the field begins to collapse. 

        As for high tension transmission lines, on metal towers the uppermost cable of the path is a ground between towers and to ground via each tower itself. This is designed to be the contact point for a direct hit and to prevent a strike on a live conductor.

        The UPS and surge systems I initially wrote about are the best solution for the homeowner.

        With 45 tears in the audio visual equipment installation industry using massive amounts of power from the grid and generators both indoor and outdoor and in all types of weather around the country, I have dealt with dirty power, surges, low voltage, high voltage, fluctuating voltage, and through all that never lost a piece of gear due to power issues. I must be doing something right.

        This is one reason commercial system racks are NOT fastened to the steel frame of a building. The racks are insulated mechanically and electrically from the "ground" of the building steel. We even put insulating sleeves between the conduit runs throughout a building and the rack holding the equipment the wiring ties to. All racks are grounded to a large insulated ground buss bar and tied direct to earth ground.

        The cost of the protection device is one indicator of many as to device quality. Most surge protectors have toroid coil and one or two MOVS inside. The protection provided by more elaborate or fast response devices is quite sufficient for the individual or home owner.

        Aegis



          Expert

          Thanked: 67
          • Yes
          • Yes
          • Brian's Mess Of A Web Page
        • Experience: Experienced
        • OS: Windows 10
        Re: Power surges and lightning
        « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2009, 05:26:41 PM »
        Quote
        Will some surge protector stop what three miles of sky could not?

        The three miles of sky is not an insulator - it is the path  along which, via electrons, the lightning energy flows.


        "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

        Shanna1875



          Rookie

          Re: Power surges and lightning
          « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2009, 06:49:10 PM »
          I say, from personal experience, it's better to be safe than sorry, unplug it all!!!! My surge protector didn't protect squat. Ethernet cord, surge protector, TV, DVD player, etc. it all gets unplugged. I had a fried video card and network card and I'm not really wanting to risk going through that again.  ;)
          What does this button do?!

          Aegis



            Expert

            Thanked: 67
            • Yes
            • Yes
            • Brian's Mess Of A Web Page
          • Experience: Experienced
          • OS: Windows 10
          Re: Power surges and lightning
          « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2009, 07:04:10 PM »
          Good point!   :)

          The rogue electricity can't flow if there's no circuit!


          "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

          westom



            Intermediate

            Thanked: 8
            Re: Power surges and lightning
            « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2009, 07:15:22 PM »
            The three miles of sky is not an insulator
            Air is a best insulator.  How good?  About 75,000 volts per inch at sea level.

             Anything that can blow through 3 miles of insulator will easily blow through a protector that stops surges.   What must a protector adjacent to the appliance do?  Stop that surge.  That works when one believes myths.  Any facility that can never suffer damage does not use those protectors.

              A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  What does every high reliability facility do? Never try to stop or absorb surges.  Connect a protector as close to earth as possible.  Increase separation between protector and electronics.  That separation increases protection.

              Why does lightning strike a church steeple if air is so conductive?   Wooden steeple is more conductive than 30 or 70 feet of air.  Air is one of the best insulators.  Lightning conducts through the conductor – not the insulator.    Any surge that cannot be stopped by three miles of air will somehow be stopped by a 2 centimeter part inside a protector?  Many who ‘know’ that also would also deny air is a superb insulator.

              Any protector that would stop what three miles of air could not – is also called a scam.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground because protectors do not stop or absorb surges - despite popular myths.

              Protector properly connected means no surge inside a building.  But a plug-in protector will not protect squat - as manufacturer spec numbers also demonstrate.   Meanwhile, what provides circuits?  As noted previously, conductive materials such as wood, linoleum, concrete, etc.  Ham radio operators would even disconnect an antenna, put the lead in a mason jar, and still suffer damage. Disconnecting did not stop damage.  Damage stopped when the antenna was earthed.

            Aegis



              Expert

              Thanked: 67
              • Yes
              • Yes
              • Brian's Mess Of A Web Page
            • Experience: Experienced
            • OS: Windows 10
            Re: Power surges and lightning
            « Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 07:38:27 PM »
            You're right, and I apologize, but I was thinking of the electron "chains" which set up, and along which the lightning travels.


            "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

            Gizmologist

              Topic Starter


              Beginner

              Thanked: 9
              Re: Power surges and lightning
              « Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 07:48:58 PM »
              There is no system a homeowner can use or install that will categorically prevent any damage in the event of a direct or close lightning strike. Most damage that occurs does NOT occur due to full on direct lightning strikes. The vast amount of damage is from induced voltage surges that are miniscule in duration but can be extreme in the voltage they direct into a conductor or device.

              A direct lightning hit on a drip loop or drop line coming into a home will most likely fry the entire system as the voltage looks for a path to ground.  Normal operation of the system and a reasonable amount or shunting of excessive voltage can be expected from better quality equipment.

              I trust the UL, CSA, National Bureau of Standards, etc to permit the technologies best proven to protect electronics to a quite reasonable degree. Companies such as Triplite, Sola, APC, Furman, SQD, etc, make successful use of these proven technologies to produce equipment that protects every computer system in the utility operations, telecommunications, satellite links etc.

              BTW, open free cycling air is NOT a good insulator. The relative humidity which is in a constant state of variation and stratification must be factored into any equation that tries to calculate or predict electrical conductivity.

              This humidity is the reason planes can be hit as they represent a larger surface area to conduct electricity. Planes are equipped with electrodes along the wing edges to discharge and disipate this current into the semiconductive air.


              westom



                Intermediate

                Thanked: 8
                Re: Power surges and lightning
                « Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 09:18:09 PM »
                Most damage that occurs does NOT occur due to full on direct lightning strikes. The vast amount of damage is from induced voltage surges that are miniscule in duration but can be extreme in the voltage they direct into a conductor or device.
                Well that was numerous popular myths.  Myths usually come in simple sentences; devoid of specs and numbers.   The resulting science usually takes paragraphs.  Citations and numbers also provided.

                  Induced surge: a lighting strike about 100 feet from a longwire antenna induced thousands of volts on that wire.  Connect an NE-2 neon glow lamp from that wire to earth.  Those trivial tens of milliamps through one neon lamp reduces thousands of volts down to tens.  Neon lamp (same glow lamp found inside power switches) undamaged. Induced surges are that trivial.

                  However, induced fields from nearby lighting strikes are so destructive that every portable radio, cell phone, and automobile radio is destroyed.  That must be … until we add facts from reality.

                  Direct lightning strike to a lightning rod placed tens of thousands of amp down a wire only four feet away from a PC.  Entire lightning strike was being earthed by a wire just outside the PC – which did not even flicker.  No crash.  No damage.  Induced fields only damaged an urban myth.

                  Embarrassing are the names of companies notorious for promoting protectors that do not even claim to provide effective protection; such as Tripplite, APC, Furman, etc.  Repeatedly asked from the technically naïve who recommend these products: show me those manufacturer numeric specs that claim protection from each type of surge?  Silence is the usual response.  Those devices do not even claim protection.  But the most technically naïve will avidly promote them anyway.  Where are those spec numbers?

                  UL and CSA does not define surge protection.  UL is about human safety.  Protector with a UL label does not claim protection.  It simply tests that a protector will not burn down the house when failure occurs.   A protector can even fail during UL testing and still be listed – as long as it does not spit sparks and flames.

                NBS does not rate surge protection.  But the NIST does discuss surge protection:
                > You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
                > "arrest" it.  What these protective devices do is
                > neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
                > divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

                  Of course, no earth ground (ie products from APC, Tripplite, Furman, etc) means ineffective protection.  Protection means the direct lighting strike must be earthed before entering the building.  Facilities that must never have damage do not use those plug-in products.  100 surges during every thunderstorm and no damage?  No plug-in  protectors.  Protectors connect each wire in every cable as short as possible to earth.  Then no damage from any lightning strike – direct or nearby.  But again, that is how it was done even 100 years ago – before those above mythical protectors were promoted on myths and junk science.

                  Protection is about where energy gets dissipated.  Either destructively inside a building OR harmlessly in earth.  Effective protection is routinely installed when direct lightning strikes get earthed; when that energy dissipates harmlessly in earth.

                  Lightning conducts through air for the same reason that electricity also conducts through fluorescent tubes.  How does a tube containing an insulator (nitrogen, argon, neon) conduct electricity?  Same way that air (with or without humidity) is converted to conduct electricity.  This simple science can be learned elsewhere – learn rather wildly speculate.

                  Air is one of the best insulators – typically about 75,000 volts per inch.  A fact provided even with numbers from one who learned this stuff generations ago.  A naysayer only provides speculations.  He even recommends protectors sold by companies with poor reputations such as APC, Triplite, Monster Cable, etc.

                Listed were companies that become part of an effective surge protection ‘system’: General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, Leviton, Keison, Siemens, etc.  A Cutler-Hammer ‘whole house’ protector sells in Lowes for less than $50.  For good reason, not on that list are products from APC, Panamax, Belkin, Monster Cable, etc.  But then one of us actually did this stuff.

                  Only myths promote damage due to induced surges. Only junk science claims air is conductive.

                 A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  How curious.  Earthing is routine in any facility that can never suffer damage.

                BC_Programmer


                  Mastermind
                • Typing is no substitute for thinking.
                • Thanked: 1140
                  • Yes
                  • Yes
                  • BC-Programming.com
                • Certifications: List
                • Computer: Specs
                • Experience: Beginner
                • OS: Windows 11
                Re: Power surges and lightning
                « Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 10:43:34 PM »
                would you kindly STFU now.  ::)
                I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                Aegis



                  Expert

                  Thanked: 67
                  • Yes
                  • Yes
                  • Brian's Mess Of A Web Page
                • Experience: Experienced
                • OS: Windows 10
                Re: Power surges and lightning
                « Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 02:14:05 AM »
                He only wants us to worship the "ground" he walks on...   ;)
                « Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 04:00:56 PM by Aegis »


                "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

                Gizmologist

                  Topic Starter


                  Beginner

                  Thanked: 9
                  Re: Power surges and lightning
                  « Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 09:40:44 AM »
                  Fortunately for the rest of us, the position of G*d has been filled and Westom was not even interviewed.

                  westom



                    Intermediate

                    Thanked: 8
                    Re: Power surges and lightning
                    « Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 10:02:30 AM »
                    Fortunately for the rest of us, the position of G*d has been filled
                      That poster started with thread with myths and lies that promote grossly overpriced solutions that solve nothing.   The usual naysayers could not challenge the technology.  So attack the messenger.

                      Gizmologist recommends the most expensive power strip.  That would be Monster Cable - a company that sells gold painted connectors (as if color means it is better) and speaker wire with polarity.   The company is famous for its scams.  Anyplace that myths can promote high profits, expect to find Monster Cable.  Gizmologist recommends Monster Cable because it is expensive.  But it is the same protector circuit selling for $7 in a grocery store.  He forgets to mention that part.

                      He also recommends a UPS as if it also provides effective protection.  Even the UPS manufacturer does not claim to provide that protection.  If Gizmologist knew before posting, then he could post those manufacturer protection specs.  He does not. Even the manufacturer does not claim that protection. 

                      Provided were the useful solution from more responsible companies.  When damage cannot happen, they don't waste money on solutions posted by Gizmologist.  When damage is not acceptable, only better earthing connected to a 'whole house' protector is used.

                     Price has little relationship to quality. So posting insults is his defense.  An effective solution means surge energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth.  Effective protection means a surge does not even enter the building.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.