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Author Topic: Power surges and lightning  (Read 23912 times)

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Gizmologist

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    Power surges and lightning
    « on: June 13, 2009, 03:17:49 PM »
    There was a recent post about lightning- induced damage an the supposition that the LAN port was possibly fried. Definite possibility.

    I strongly urge everyone to do a few things to help prevent a lightning or power surge. dropout system failure.


    First, I suggest that you look at the telephone  demarc on your home. That is the incoming connection from the Telco to your phone jacks. If you have an older home or apartment, you should have the phone company come out to verify the device is still functioning properly and that a good earth ground is firmly attached.  As this is NOT consider3ed a trouble call, you will most likely have to pay for the service call. Current electrical codes do NOT permit a water pipe(hose bib) to be used for a ground for the phone line or the houses electrical panel. A certified copper clad ground rod MUST be used.

    Second, if you use an outlet strip for your computer hardware, be sure it is a high quality surge protected style. Look for the highest "joule" rating on the various styles. In addition, a good solid earth ground at the outlet from the home's load center (breaker panel) is a must.  If you plug a grounded surge protector outlet strip into an ungrounded outlet or the ground is not sufficient, you have just wasted your money.

    Next you should have a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) sized to handle the CPU and all the ext drives you use. In addition good quality UPS (APC for example) will have RJ 11 and or RJ45 feed through jacks to connect the incoming phone line and the ethernet output of a DSL or cable modem. These add to the surge protection provided by the TELCO and or the cable company. Many UPS units also RF feed-thrus for a coax cable connection.  The UPS should also have a USB cable to connect it to your computer along with a CD. This connection allows the computer to be safely shut down by the UPS if necessary.

    The CPU and drives should be connected to the "auto back up" outlets and the monitor should be connected to the "surge only" outlets.

    Another neat thing about these is that if you are prone to brownouts or your power for the computer takes a dip when the AC kicks on, you will now have steady clean power to the puter.

    Spend a little now and save on a new mobo and a lot pf aspirin.

    patio

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    Re: Power surges and lightning
    « Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 03:38:37 PM »
    Good info.
    I can't tell you how many machines i've seen DOA and were resuscitated by simply replacing the modem/network cards...
    They seem to take the first hit.
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    westom



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      Re: Power surges and lightning
      « Reply #2 on: June 13, 2009, 07:35:56 PM »
        A typically destructive surge seeks earth ground.  For example, a surge is a connection from clouds to earthborne charges some miles distant.  A lightning strike to wires on the street may find earth via your AC mains service, household appliances, to earth.  That is called surge damage.  That is they type of surge that overwhelms protection inside appliances.

        All appliances contain surge protection which makes most every surge irrelevant.  But the rare and typically destructive surge overwhelms internal protection.   Will some surge protector stop what three miles of sky could not?  Retail stores will say that.  Will that silly few hundred joules absorb surges of hundreds of thousands of joules?  Of course not.

        A surge that does not enter the building does not find earth destructively via appliances.  That is how surge protection was installed even 100 years ago.  Either massive energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth.  Or that energy enters a building, destructively hunting for other paths to earth.  Your choice.

      Do you stop or absorb what even three miles of sky could not?  Of course not.  So how does your telco, with computers connected to overhead wires all over town, have no surge damage?  Is telephone service down for four days all over town while they replace that computer?   Of course not.  Telcos use the same 100 year old concept.   Every wire in every cable connects short to earth before entering the CO.

        A protector is not protection.  Protection is what a protector connects to.  Earth ground dissipated all that energy.  A protector either makes a low impedance connection to earth OR the protector must somehow stop that surge.  Telcos do not use plug-in protectors for one simple reason.  All but no earth ground.  AND it does not even claim to provide that protection.

        Telco also installs a ‘whole house’ protection on every subscriber’s interface – the NID box.  But again, that protector is only as effective as what will absorb direct lightning strikes.   That means a ground wire from the NID must be short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp wire bends, separated from all other non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit, no splices, etc.  Each requirement simple but critical for a low impedance (not low resistance) connection to earth.

        Why is an AC wall receptacle safety ground not earth ground?  See those requirements for low impedance?  Safety ground wire violates virtually every requirement for effective earthing.

        A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  IOW each protection layer is defined by one thing – a single point ground.  No matter how many protectors are installed; if all connect to the same earthing electrode, then only one protection layer exists.  That which absorbs surge energy defines the layer.

        Single point earth ground is the same principle that makes your telco’s CO protection so effective.  Cable TV wire also must drop down to also make that short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to earth – before entering the building.  Cable TV and satellite dish are connected directly to earth.  No protector required.

        Telephone and AC electric require a protector to connect to earth.  Telco provides one for free because that protector is so inexpensive and so effective.  Any protector without earthing (ie on a UPS) would do nothing except degrade phone service (especially DSL).   But a source of most destructive surges is AC mains.  Wires highest on utility poles (most often struck) make a direct (destructive) connection to all household appliances.  Worse, most all homes have no ‘whole house’ protector – have all but no surge protection.

        What is typical modem damage?  Incoming on AC mains.  Through computer and modem.  Out to earth ground via a phone line.  First a surge current flows in everything in a path from cloud to earth.  Then something in that path fails.  Typically destroyed part was a PNP transistor that drives an off-hook relay.  It suggests the amount of experience and technical knowledge behind this post. Many lightning damaged modems were repaired, and still working even 10+ years later.  We followed the surge path, then fixed damaged parts.  In every case, the damaged part was in a path from cloud to earth.

        Earth a ‘whole house’ protector from one of many responsible companies such as General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, Leviton, Keison, Siemens, etc.  A Cutler-Hammer ‘whole house’ protector sells in Lowes for less than $50.  That will connect an incoming surge to earth.   Quality of and connection to earth determines protection.  Earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements.  One indication that your home may be earthed for human safety but not sufficiently for surge protection.

         A breaker box ‘whole house’ protector would be earthed by a bare copper 6 AWG (quarter inch) wire from breaker box to an earth ground rod.  If that wire travels up over the foundation and down to earth, then higher impedance is created.  That wire must go through the foundation and down to earth.   To make it shorter, to eliminate sharp wire bends, to separate it from other wires, etc. 

       Lower impedance is how to make a connection to earth – shorter, no sharp bends, etc.  High impedance is why plug-in protectors have all but no earth ground.  Why plug-in protectors must stop what three miles of sky could not.  Why any facility that must never suffer surge damage does not use power strip and UPS protectors.  Why protection means being fanatical about earthing.

        Above only discussed secondary protection.  What defines each protection layer?  The one thing that every layer must have – earth ground.  Home owners should also inspect their primary protection system:
         http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

        View manufacturer numeric specs for that plug-in protector.  Show us the numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge.  Noted earlier: all appliances contain surge protection.  Any protection provided by that power strip protector (and near zero protection provided by a UPS) is made irrelevant by protection inside appliances.  Notice, no manufacturer specs claim that protection.

        How to identify ineffective protectors:  1) It has no dedicated wire for that always essential ‘less than 10 foot’ connection to earth.  2) Manufacture even avoids all discussion about earthing.   That defines most every power strip and plug-in UPS.

        And finally, is a more expensive protector better?  Do you view the price or learn the science?  Science is what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.  Meanwhile, a $7 grocery store protector has the same circuit found in a $150 protector sold in Best Buy.   Monster Cable (same company that sells speaker wire with polarity for maybe $70) locates obscenely profitable markets.  Most expensive protector comes from a company with a long reputation selling scams?  That is what some have claimed.

        Do you spend $150 for each appliance including dishwasher, clock radio, and bathroom GFCIs?  When damage is never an option, a ‘whole house’ protector is installed for about $1 per protected appliance.  Price does not define quality – once we learn how these things really work.  Spend tens or 100 times less money for protection that actually works.  Do hundreds of joules stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?  Does a power strip or UPS stop what three miles of sky could not?  Retail salesmen make that claim.  But then appreciate their profit margins.  A $7 solution selling for as much as $150 because it has fancier paint.

        The informed consumer buys a solution well proven for over 100 years.  That is required by the US Air Force.  That is defined by the Sun Microsystems guide for server installations.  That has been routine so that munitions dumps suffer direct lightning strikes without explosions.   Spend less money for the well proven and superior solution.  Then upgrade what provides protection:  earth ground.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

      Gizmologist

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        Re: Power surges and lightning
        « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2009, 05:00:43 PM »
        Well aside from repeating yourself numerous times, a lot of your post is unfortunately incorrect.

        For instance. The NEC does not permit grounding conductors (not the neutral) from an electrical load center to be connected in any way to the foundation of a building. The grounding electrode must be sized to the service, copper clad, and driven to a depth of at least 8 ft. The Grounding electrode is no longer to be connected to the water pipe system of the home. This was the practice in earlier years but resulted in numerous severe shock hazards.

        The power surges caused by direct lightning hits along the power line are grounded (earthed) to a great extent by the power companies intrinsic grounding methods an systems. There is no home based system capable of deflecting the several million volts and 50 thousand amps of a direct lightning strike.

        The surges usually found on single phase drops into homes are caused by fluctuations in the load factor on the line supplying the local  transformers as well as those transformers being driven to max load capacity where the field begins to collapse. 

        As for high tension transmission lines, on metal towers the uppermost cable of the path is a ground between towers and to ground via each tower itself. This is designed to be the contact point for a direct hit and to prevent a strike on a live conductor.

        The UPS and surge systems I initially wrote about are the best solution for the homeowner.

        With 45 tears in the audio visual equipment installation industry using massive amounts of power from the grid and generators both indoor and outdoor and in all types of weather around the country, I have dealt with dirty power, surges, low voltage, high voltage, fluctuating voltage, and through all that never lost a piece of gear due to power issues. I must be doing something right.

        This is one reason commercial system racks are NOT fastened to the steel frame of a building. The racks are insulated mechanically and electrically from the "ground" of the building steel. We even put insulating sleeves between the conduit runs throughout a building and the rack holding the equipment the wiring ties to. All racks are grounded to a large insulated ground buss bar and tied direct to earth ground.

        The cost of the protection device is one indicator of many as to device quality. Most surge protectors have toroid coil and one or two MOVS inside. The protection provided by more elaborate or fast response devices is quite sufficient for the individual or home owner.

        Aegis



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        Re: Power surges and lightning
        « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2009, 05:26:41 PM »
        Quote
        Will some surge protector stop what three miles of sky could not?

        The three miles of sky is not an insulator - it is the path  along which, via electrons, the lightning energy flows.


        "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

        Shanna1875



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          Re: Power surges and lightning
          « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2009, 06:49:10 PM »
          I say, from personal experience, it's better to be safe than sorry, unplug it all!!!! My surge protector didn't protect squat. Ethernet cord, surge protector, TV, DVD player, etc. it all gets unplugged. I had a fried video card and network card and I'm not really wanting to risk going through that again.  ;)
          What does this button do?!

          Aegis



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          Re: Power surges and lightning
          « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2009, 07:04:10 PM »
          Good point!   :)

          The rogue electricity can't flow if there's no circuit!


          "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

          westom



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            Re: Power surges and lightning
            « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2009, 07:15:22 PM »
            The three miles of sky is not an insulator
            Air is a best insulator.  How good?  About 75,000 volts per inch at sea level.

             Anything that can blow through 3 miles of insulator will easily blow through a protector that stops surges.   What must a protector adjacent to the appliance do?  Stop that surge.  That works when one believes myths.  Any facility that can never suffer damage does not use those protectors.

              A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  What does every high reliability facility do? Never try to stop or absorb surges.  Connect a protector as close to earth as possible.  Increase separation between protector and electronics.  That separation increases protection.

              Why does lightning strike a church steeple if air is so conductive?   Wooden steeple is more conductive than 30 or 70 feet of air.  Air is one of the best insulators.  Lightning conducts through the conductor – not the insulator.    Any surge that cannot be stopped by three miles of air will somehow be stopped by a 2 centimeter part inside a protector?  Many who ‘know’ that also would also deny air is a superb insulator.

              Any protector that would stop what three miles of air could not – is also called a scam.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground because protectors do not stop or absorb surges - despite popular myths.

              Protector properly connected means no surge inside a building.  But a plug-in protector will not protect squat - as manufacturer spec numbers also demonstrate.   Meanwhile, what provides circuits?  As noted previously, conductive materials such as wood, linoleum, concrete, etc.  Ham radio operators would even disconnect an antenna, put the lead in a mason jar, and still suffer damage. Disconnecting did not stop damage.  Damage stopped when the antenna was earthed.

            Aegis



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            Re: Power surges and lightning
            « Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 07:38:27 PM »
            You're right, and I apologize, but I was thinking of the electron "chains" which set up, and along which the lightning travels.


            "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

            Gizmologist

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              Re: Power surges and lightning
              « Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 07:48:58 PM »
              There is no system a homeowner can use or install that will categorically prevent any damage in the event of a direct or close lightning strike. Most damage that occurs does NOT occur due to full on direct lightning strikes. The vast amount of damage is from induced voltage surges that are miniscule in duration but can be extreme in the voltage they direct into a conductor or device.

              A direct lightning hit on a drip loop or drop line coming into a home will most likely fry the entire system as the voltage looks for a path to ground.  Normal operation of the system and a reasonable amount or shunting of excessive voltage can be expected from better quality equipment.

              I trust the UL, CSA, National Bureau of Standards, etc to permit the technologies best proven to protect electronics to a quite reasonable degree. Companies such as Triplite, Sola, APC, Furman, SQD, etc, make successful use of these proven technologies to produce equipment that protects every computer system in the utility operations, telecommunications, satellite links etc.

              BTW, open free cycling air is NOT a good insulator. The relative humidity which is in a constant state of variation and stratification must be factored into any equation that tries to calculate or predict electrical conductivity.

              This humidity is the reason planes can be hit as they represent a larger surface area to conduct electricity. Planes are equipped with electrodes along the wing edges to discharge and disipate this current into the semiconductive air.


              westom



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                Re: Power surges and lightning
                « Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 09:18:09 PM »
                Most damage that occurs does NOT occur due to full on direct lightning strikes. The vast amount of damage is from induced voltage surges that are miniscule in duration but can be extreme in the voltage they direct into a conductor or device.
                Well that was numerous popular myths.  Myths usually come in simple sentences; devoid of specs and numbers.   The resulting science usually takes paragraphs.  Citations and numbers also provided.

                  Induced surge: a lighting strike about 100 feet from a longwire antenna induced thousands of volts on that wire.  Connect an NE-2 neon glow lamp from that wire to earth.  Those trivial tens of milliamps through one neon lamp reduces thousands of volts down to tens.  Neon lamp (same glow lamp found inside power switches) undamaged. Induced surges are that trivial.

                  However, induced fields from nearby lighting strikes are so destructive that every portable radio, cell phone, and automobile radio is destroyed.  That must be … until we add facts from reality.

                  Direct lightning strike to a lightning rod placed tens of thousands of amp down a wire only four feet away from a PC.  Entire lightning strike was being earthed by a wire just outside the PC – which did not even flicker.  No crash.  No damage.  Induced fields only damaged an urban myth.

                  Embarrassing are the names of companies notorious for promoting protectors that do not even claim to provide effective protection; such as Tripplite, APC, Furman, etc.  Repeatedly asked from the technically naïve who recommend these products: show me those manufacturer numeric specs that claim protection from each type of surge?  Silence is the usual response.  Those devices do not even claim protection.  But the most technically naïve will avidly promote them anyway.  Where are those spec numbers?

                  UL and CSA does not define surge protection.  UL is about human safety.  Protector with a UL label does not claim protection.  It simply tests that a protector will not burn down the house when failure occurs.   A protector can even fail during UL testing and still be listed – as long as it does not spit sparks and flames.

                NBS does not rate surge protection.  But the NIST does discuss surge protection:
                > You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
                > "arrest" it.  What these protective devices do is
                > neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
                > divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

                  Of course, no earth ground (ie products from APC, Tripplite, Furman, etc) means ineffective protection.  Protection means the direct lighting strike must be earthed before entering the building.  Facilities that must never have damage do not use those plug-in products.  100 surges during every thunderstorm and no damage?  No plug-in  protectors.  Protectors connect each wire in every cable as short as possible to earth.  Then no damage from any lightning strike – direct or nearby.  But again, that is how it was done even 100 years ago – before those above mythical protectors were promoted on myths and junk science.

                  Protection is about where energy gets dissipated.  Either destructively inside a building OR harmlessly in earth.  Effective protection is routinely installed when direct lightning strikes get earthed; when that energy dissipates harmlessly in earth.

                  Lightning conducts through air for the same reason that electricity also conducts through fluorescent tubes.  How does a tube containing an insulator (nitrogen, argon, neon) conduct electricity?  Same way that air (with or without humidity) is converted to conduct electricity.  This simple science can be learned elsewhere – learn rather wildly speculate.

                  Air is one of the best insulators – typically about 75,000 volts per inch.  A fact provided even with numbers from one who learned this stuff generations ago.  A naysayer only provides speculations.  He even recommends protectors sold by companies with poor reputations such as APC, Triplite, Monster Cable, etc.

                Listed were companies that become part of an effective surge protection ‘system’: General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, Leviton, Keison, Siemens, etc.  A Cutler-Hammer ‘whole house’ protector sells in Lowes for less than $50.  For good reason, not on that list are products from APC, Panamax, Belkin, Monster Cable, etc.  But then one of us actually did this stuff.

                  Only myths promote damage due to induced surges. Only junk science claims air is conductive.

                 A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  How curious.  Earthing is routine in any facility that can never suffer damage.

                BC_Programmer


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                Re: Power surges and lightning
                « Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 10:43:34 PM »
                would you kindly STFU now.  ::)
                I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                Aegis



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                Re: Power surges and lightning
                « Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 02:14:05 AM »
                He only wants us to worship the "ground" he walks on...   ;)
                « Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 04:00:56 PM by Aegis »


                "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

                Gizmologist

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                  Re: Power surges and lightning
                  « Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 09:40:44 AM »
                  Fortunately for the rest of us, the position of G*d has been filled and Westom was not even interviewed.

                  westom



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                    Re: Power surges and lightning
                    « Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 10:02:30 AM »
                    Fortunately for the rest of us, the position of G*d has been filled
                      That poster started with thread with myths and lies that promote grossly overpriced solutions that solve nothing.   The usual naysayers could not challenge the technology.  So attack the messenger.

                      Gizmologist recommends the most expensive power strip.  That would be Monster Cable - a company that sells gold painted connectors (as if color means it is better) and speaker wire with polarity.   The company is famous for its scams.  Anyplace that myths can promote high profits, expect to find Monster Cable.  Gizmologist recommends Monster Cable because it is expensive.  But it is the same protector circuit selling for $7 in a grocery store.  He forgets to mention that part.

                      He also recommends a UPS as if it also provides effective protection.  Even the UPS manufacturer does not claim to provide that protection.  If Gizmologist knew before posting, then he could post those manufacturer protection specs.  He does not. Even the manufacturer does not claim that protection. 

                      Provided were the useful solution from more responsible companies.  When damage cannot happen, they don't waste money on solutions posted by Gizmologist.  When damage is not acceptable, only better earthing connected to a 'whole house' protector is used.

                     Price has little relationship to quality. So posting insults is his defense.  An effective solution means surge energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth.  Effective protection means a surge does not even enter the building.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 

                    Gizmologist

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                      Re: Power surges and lightning
                      « Reply #15 on: June 15, 2009, 03:49:30 PM »
                      Among all you other misstatements Westom, you claim FALSELY that I recommend Monster cable surge protectors. Please copy and paste the post where I mentioned Monster Cable anything. That was purely YOUR invention. The same goes for running grounding wiring from  service entrance THROUGH the foundation of a building.

                      Anyone wishing to spend all of 2 minutes googling the info I provided will find hundreds of articles, posts etc stating the same.

                      I know it's hard to think rationally when you are drunk, but I never claimed 100 % protection from direct lightning strikes by any specific brand of surge protector etc. I never cited such claims made by anyone.

                      The power and telco operations do a dam* good job isolating end users from lightning damage. There are 3 types of surges that equipment is prone to capacitive, induced and resistive.  The commercially surge protectors are tested and do conform with current requirements for shunting all but the most extreme voltage fluctuations caused by direct lightning.

                      I am so glad that you alone feel that your opinions are the only true and accurate source of information on this subject and that ALL the professionals in the business, the testing laboratories and the government agencies are all in a false sense of security.

                      How did we ever make it so far without your benevolent and magnanimous bestowal of such a magical science?

                      In case you can't figure it out, that last question was rhetorical.

                      BC_Programmer


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                      Re: Power surges and lightning
                      « Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 04:27:31 PM »
                      Thank you gizmologist. All I could muster in the other thread he pulled this in was a request for him to STFU.


                      Additionally it's nice to have some good information on this that wasn't pulled out of ones *censored*- as was most surely the case for Westoms info.



                      As has been said- it's a shame that all the people who know how to run this country are busy cutting hair and driving cabs.
                      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                      westom



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                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                        « Reply #17 on: June 15, 2009, 04:52:46 PM »
                        Among all you other misstatements Westom, you claim FALSELY that I recommend Monster cable surge protectors.

                          Protectors you have recommended are same protector circuit found in Monster Cable's $75 and $150 products.  You stated a more expensive protector is better.  That means Monster Cable must be better than APC, Panamax, etc – your logic.

                          Why would fancy paint and different plastic body shape make it better?  You recommended products based on price.  Same APC circuit is also sold under the Monster Cable name.  Even has similar manufacturer spec numbers.

                          So now you deny an expensive protector is better?   Which is it?  Your post recommended protectors without earthing and that costs more money – ie Monster Cable.  Now you deny it?

                          So now you post insults?  Insults prove you learned this stuff before posting?  You designed and built this stuff?  Then suffered direct lightning strikes without damage?  Of course not.  You know only because that is the popular myth - propaganda.  Meanwhile one who did this stuff even decades ago also provided solutions based in the science.  Same solutions that worked so well even 100 years ago.  Same solutions that say your every recommendation is bogus – based only in popular myth and insults.

                          A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

                          And still you invent myths.  Now you invented three types of surges.  Capacitive, induced, and resistive.  Fine.  Show me where your APC, et al protector lists protection from each type?  You said these magic boxes “do a dam* good job isolating end users from lightning damage.”  That means stopping and absorbing each type of surge.  OK.  Then it says so in manufacturer specs.  Where?  Oh.  You know because you learned where?  Junk science is alive and well in America.

                          I keep asking for manufacturer specs that support your claims?  Why are specs never provided?  None exist.  You are inventing surges.  Then inventing protection that even the manufacturer will not claim.

                          I can also find hundreds of articles that prove Saddam had WMDs from the same myth purveyors.  After all, if the propaganda says it is true, then it must be true.  That is your logic.  Your logic complete without numbers or citations – the definition of junk science reasoning.

                          Meanwhile, protection even from direct lightning strikes is routine.  Earthing and ‘whole house’ protectors are also routine when damage is not an option.  But that must not be true because I did not insult you?

                        From the National Institute of Science and Technology is science that disputes your thousands of Communication majors (propaganda experts):
                        > A very important point to keep in mind is that your
                        > surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
                        > ground.  The best surge protection in the world can
                        > be useless if grounding is not done properly.

                         Or from the US Air Force:
                        > 15. Surge Protection.
                        > ... Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the
                        > conductor enters the interior of the facility. Devices
                        > commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas
                        > tube arresters, and transzorbs.

                          Or the planning guide for Sun Microsystems server rooms:
                        >  Section 6.4.7  Lightning Protection:
                        > Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted.
                        > The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to
                        > identify any paths for surge entry into the data center.  Surge
                        > arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the
                        > potential for lightning damage within the data center. These
                        > should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to
                        > ground for the surge energy.

                          Professionals who install surge protection so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage do not waste money on products you have recommended.  Instead, they use protectors that also cost less money.  And always make that short and dedicated connection to earth.  Should we believe a majority who are propaganda experts or who know only because others post insults?   Or should we learn from the fewer who actually understand science before posting?

                        Protection means surge energy dissipates harmlessly in earth before entering a building.  As the above cited professionals note: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 



                        JJ 3000



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                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                        « Reply #18 on: June 15, 2009, 05:17:25 PM »
                        I understand science ^-^
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                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                        « Reply #19 on: June 15, 2009, 06:02:01 PM »
                        I'm sure the cited professionals do their job and don't drone ON AND ON AND ON about how they know what's best for everybody involved.

                        your talking about SERVER ROOMS and MILITARY INSTALLATIONS

                        Not bloody residental housing.

                        guess what? chances are, the type of "whole building" surge protection you so adamantly profess is not possible due to zoning specifications; and even if it is- it's prohibitively expensive.

                        Go with what was already mentioned in another thread. unplug the *censored* things when there is a storm. then it doesn't make a bloody difference the amount of theory you provide, since it's more effective then any "whole building" solution. and, even more importantly- it costs nothing.

                        Quote
                        Junk science is alive and well in America.

                        your living proof.

                        regarding the surge protector stuff- he doesn't mean, More expensive is better. he means higher-quality is better. big difference. it just so happens, that for the most part higher-quality corresponds to higher prices. "Monster Cable" is however overpriced, even if their devices are high quality. (btw, Gold, as we all should know, is the best conductor of electricity; wether it's conductivity is any use with regards to surge protectors, or any of their devices is another matter altogether, but I believe that is the theory.

                        open up a 10 dollar surge protector.

                        Now open up a 60 dollar one.

                        you can't, at any point, claim that they posess the same insides. the 10 dollar surge protector is often only a surge protector in name; whereas the more expensive one has far higher quality capacitance and load switching, which is often simply non-existent from the cheaper one.

                        Take Dynex and APC, as two examples of "cheap" and "Expensive" respectively. While nobody can claim that Price-Quality is always true, under most circumstances they roughly correspond; except for the highest priced items, where you generally pay extra simply because of the brand itself, not necessarily their product.
                        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                        Gizmologist

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                          Re: Power surges and lightning
                          « Reply #20 on: June 15, 2009, 07:28:23 PM »
                          BC P it's a lost cause with Westom.

                          WE know we are right, the computer industry knows we are right, the audio visual industry knows, the professional sound industry knows, the television production industry knows and the list goes on.

                          Little man westom likes to add his own details and claims ad nauseum.

                          He probably changed tires on a field generator in the Air Force.

                          I have been installing high end systems 150k to 3 mill. AV systems all over the country for 40 years. Haven't lost a single one yet to surges. I must be doing something right.

                          Peace to you.

                          Gizmologist

                          BTW westom don't bother replying since I am  done wasting time on you.

                          JJ 3000



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                          Re: Power surges and lightning
                          « Reply #21 on: June 15, 2009, 07:41:14 PM »
                          Most people tend to spend a lot of money on their computers and then suddenly get cheap when it comes to  buying a surge suppressor. If you've invested a lot of cash in your PC it is worth the extra money to protect your investment.

                          The most important thing to look for when buying a surge suppressor is the joules rating. A joule is a unit of of electrical energy. The joules rating describes how much electrical energy the suppressor can handle before it fails. So the more joules the better the protection. My surge suppressor rates at 1,550 joules.

                          My surge suppressor also comes with cable and telephone connections. This helps protect against surges from the cable modem and, If i had it, the DSL.

                          Furthermore, when buying a surge suppressor, make sure that it has a test/reset button. They Will still carry electricity when they stop providing protection.

                          A lot of companies provide cash guarantees against system failure caused by surges. This accounts for the higher prices on some models.
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                            Re: Power surges and lightning
                            « Reply #22 on: June 15, 2009, 08:07:32 PM »
                            Another reason people's computers get fried is that not too many people will check the little light that says protected on the surge protector they just see that the light for power is on and they think its okay not knowing that they are not protected and keep on using them cause even though the light is out they think that they are still protected by it but they are not and usually when they realise it it's too late and the computer components are fried. I usually replace mine about every year to 2 years cause even though there are not storms you still get power surges. And also if you plug one in and it says it's not protected either the protector is bad or you have a bad or missing ground.

                            BC_Programmer


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                            Re: Power surges and lightning
                            « Reply #23 on: June 15, 2009, 08:23:16 PM »
                            also, if you use a high-quality power supply, in the event that a surge get's to it, it's supposed to sacrifice itself for the rest of the PC. But  manufacturer's power supplies are pretty cheap in comparison to the parts in them.
                            I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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                              Surge protector maintenance
                              « Reply #24 on: June 15, 2009, 08:26:13 PM »
                              Good point Brett. I usually change my surge blocks out about every 4 years. The over voltage devices in surge protector systems do have a limited useful life span. They can degrade and may not actually be able to shunt voltage spikes effectively.

                              I also recommend replacing the gel cell batteries in UPS systems about every 2 years - 3 years max.

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                              Re: Surge protector maintenance
                              « Reply #25 on: June 15, 2009, 09:03:29 PM »
                              erm... why a new topic  ???
                              I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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                                Re: Surge protector maintenance
                                « Reply #26 on: June 15, 2009, 10:52:53 PM »
                                Sorry, clicked the wrong button.

                                hot dog

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                                Re: Power surges and lightning
                                « Reply #27 on: June 15, 2009, 11:56:11 PM »
                                just have to throw in my few cents.. ::) 

                                I've found reading this thread quite entertaining, yet educational   

                                I've taken quite a few electronics courses and sometimes it's difficult to conceptualize some applications of electronics until you come across live situations....For instance, "earth ground,"  Quite a simple concept, yet when thrown into a mix of variables like it was here, you can clearly see that it's only a piece of the puzzle..

                                westom



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                                  Re: Power surges and lightning
                                  « Reply #28 on: June 16, 2009, 01:10:44 PM »
                                  The most important thing to look for when buying a surge suppressor is the joules rating. A joule is a unit of of electrical energy. The joules rating describes how much electrical energy the suppressor can handle before it fails. So the more joules the better the protection. My surge suppressor rates at 1,550 joules.

                                    Now add missing facts.  Your 1550 joule protector only uses 520 joules and never more than 1030. That assumes no protectors on telephone and cable; else joules would be lower.  So 500 or 1000 joules will absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules?  You made that claim.  Next paragraph will describe the missing science.

                                    Why does a protector have more joules.  So that a protector absorbs LESS energy.  A better protector absorbs LESS joules.   Hundreds of thousands of joules in a surge must be absorbed by the protector? You made that claim using wild speculation.  A protector that cannot connect hundreds of thousands of joules short to earth may even create a house fire.  That energy must be absorbed somewhere.

                                    Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life expectancy.  Joules do not define how a protector works for each surge. After every surge, the effective protector remains functional.   Earthing – not joules - determines how good a protector performs during each surge.

                                   We engineers even traced surge damage through a network of powered off computers BECAUSE that protector was adjacent to computers.   We learned using science – not from wild speculation or reatil salemen.  Ineffective protector simply earthed a surge destructively through computers and the network.  We repaired all computers by literally following each path to earth (created by a plug-in protector) and replacing every damaged semiconductor.  Damage to powered off computers BECAUSE a plug-in protector was located too close to those computers and too far from earth ground.  But again, one of us learned this decades ago by learning the science AND by doing; by ignoring wild speculation.

                                    Some companies offer big buck warranties to those who never bother to read the find print.  Those warranties are mythical – not honored.  For example, one APC warranty even said a protector from any other manufacturer in the house voided their warranty.  Did you read the long list of exemptions so that the warranty is never honored?  ‘Free market’ principles: products with the bigger hyped warranty fall more often. Recently, one car company said their product was better because their warranty was better than Toyotas.  Such myths work on those who know without first learning.   Only a retail store victim would believe a warranty defines quality.  Benchmarks in surge protection (ie Polyphaser) do not have big buck warranty BECAUSE it is the superior solution – not promoted by a mythical warranty.

                                    With electronics knowledge, one knows that protectors cannot be ‘tested’ by a button.  Furthermore, what does that indicator light report?  Protector was so grossly undersized as to operate in violation of MOV manufacturer specs.  Again the difference between an engineer who knows by first learning facts verses others who know only by feeling.  “Absolute Maximum Parameters” are bluntly clear about this.  If the protector fails as described, then the protector was grossly undersized.

                                    Notice what the light reports in these pictures.  All protector parts are removed.  The light still reports that protector good.  Did you learn what the light reports, or just *assume* it reports anything useful?  The light can only report a condition that must never happen.  The light cannot report any protector as good.  View the pictures:
                                     http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

                                    Ironically, if a protector is grossly undersized (500 joules trying to absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules), then the naïve will recommend it.  An effective protector means nobody knows a surge even existed.  The naïve will not recommend what is unknown.  Damage gets the naïve to recommend it – which is why protectors are so grossly undersized as to even trigger that light.   An effective protector means even direct lightning strikes are earthed with damage even to a protector.

                                     Replies to a post chock full of sound byte myths.  A reply takes paragraphs to explain reality.  But the naïve instead will believe sound bytes phrases.

                                    How does a protector fail?  Its voltage changes by 10%.  A change that cannot be detected by that light or by pressing a test button.  Obvious when one first learns from manufacturer datasheets.  What does that light really report?  That a protector was so grossly undersized – so ineffective – as to fail catastrophically. So grossly undersized as to violate *every* MOV manufacturer spec.  But again, the engineer who designed this stuff would know this.  Myth purveyors would not.

                                    It claims to be a surge protector.  Therefore the naïve automatically *assume* it provides surge protection.  Same logic (by word association and emotions) also proved Saddam had WMDs.  Confronted are so many outright lies and myths.   Mantra from retail salesmen.  And still never provided:  manufacturer specs that claim that protection.

                                    JJ 3000 could not provide those spec numbers because ineffective protectors never claim that protection.

                                    A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – where energy must be absorbed.  So they make a subjective claim – “surge protection” – in a sales brochure.  A sales brochure proves protection?  No.  It only protects from a surge that is typically not destructive.  But the naïve saw a sound byte - “surge protection” – and therefore *know* it must be effective.

                                    JJ 3000 – here is your challenge.  Reply logically and without emotion.  For example, post those manufacturer spec numbers that list protection.  You made the claim.  Therefore you can cite the science that defines your claim.  However, most who automatically believe scams rarely post logically; instead will attack the messenger.  Your choice.  Prove your case with manufacturer spec numbers, facts, and citations.  OR act like a technically naïve fool.  Explain why the NIST contradicts what you have posted:
                                  > A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector
                                  > will work by diverting the surges to ground.  The best surge
                                  > protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
                                  > properly.

                                    Responsible companies (listed previously) provide protectors that can make that less than 10 foot connection to earth.  Protectors next to a computer that would absorb surges are scams – easily promoted to those who believe myths – who cannot even post manufacturer numeric specs.  MOVs (measured in joules) do not protect by absorbing surges.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - where surge energy must be harmlessly dissipiated.

                                  westom



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                                    Re: Surge protector maintenance
                                    « Reply #29 on: June 16, 2009, 01:15:24 PM »
                                    I usually change my surge blocks out about every 4 years. The over voltage devices in surge protector systems do have a limited useful life span. They can degrade and may not actually be able to shunt voltage spikes effectively.
                                     Gizmologist demonstrates brainwashing by myth purveyors.  Surge protectors are installed for the rare surge that can overwhelm protection inside every appliance.  Surges that occur typically once every seven years.  Protector must not be damaged by those surges.  But that would harm retails sales.

                                      When selling to the naive, retail myths promote constant surges.  The naïve then believe only the first thing told.  After all, we replace dimmer switches every week due to these surges?  Of course not. Those frequent surges do not exist.  The naïve never bothered to ask embarrassing questions.

                                      Effective surge protectors earth direct lightning strikes and remain functional.  An effective protector means the homeowner does not even know a lightning surge existed.  And that protector remains functional for decades – contradicting myths posted by Gizmologist.  But then we engineers who did this stuff first learned before knowing.

                                      Why does he know a protector has a limited life span?  It was a subjective claim from urban myth sources.   AV salesman will invent replacement numbers to maximize sales.  AV installers are told to believe it – to maximize profits.   Invent numbers rather than first view the life expectancy numbers in datasheets?  Gizmologist says a 2 centimeter part inside that protector will stop what three miles of sky could not.  Claims air is a conductor – not an insulator.  Recommends the $150 Monster Cable protector because it cost more than the same circuit selling in grocery stores for only $7.  Recommends a protector even though he now admits it does not protect from lightning – the primary reason for a surge protector.  Even invented three types of (mythical) electricity: capacitive, induced and resistive.

                                      What is his training?  He hangs speakers and runs wire.  Knows what the AV salesman tells him to say.  A $3 power strips with $0.10 parts selling for $25 or $150.   With profit margins that high, it must do something – according to Gizmologist.  45 years of installing speakers and he still does not know air is a best insulator.  Anyone with a high school science education would know that.  But he is promoting myths.  Science gets in the way of profits.  Yes, plug-in protectors do not even claim to provide protection.  But the profit margins are massive.

                                      View numbers on the box of any protector.  Let-through voltage is what?  330 volts?  How often do 330 volt surges exist?  If as often as Gizmologist says, then your 120 volt dimmer switch, dishwasher, and clock radio are destroyed daily by ‘330 plus’ volt surges.  A protector does nothing – remains inert – until voltage exceeds 330 volts.  Its right there on the box.  Gizmologist says 330 volt surges are routine – and that air is not an insulator.

                                      We install a ‘whole house’ protector for the rare surge that can damage appliances.  Smoke detectors, furnace, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs especially need protection.    What protects them?  The same protector that earths direct lightning strikes and does not fail.  The protector that costs $1 per appliance – not $75 or $150 as Gizmologist’s AV salesman needs you to believe.   $75 or $150 recommended by Gizmologist for a protector that does not even claim to provide protection.

                                      Responsible posters know why effective solutions have names such as Intermatic, Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, Keison, General Electric, Square D, Siemens, etc.   The most naïve among us recommend scams from APC, Belkin, Furman, Panamax, and Monster Cable – because that AV salesman knows where profits are highest.  Where is that manufacture spec that claims protection?  Gizmologist will not provide it.  Even that manufacturer does not claim his urban myth protection.

                                      A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  No low impedance connection to earth means no effective protection.  The solution routinely used anywhere that damage does not occur.

                                    Gizmologist

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                                      Re: Power surges and lightning
                                      « Reply #30 on: June 16, 2009, 01:31:28 PM »
                                      Westom you might want to read the posts here. No one cares about your repetitive claims  (ad nauseum).

                                      Our real world experiences are quite sufficient for us accept the fact that the equipment we use does in fact work for the majority of situations.

                                      As stated numerous times before, we are not talking about lightning striking the power drop outside a window of a home and splitting the wall open and sending a few million volts to ground through the house wiring. That does happen occasionally- no one is arguing that. Any disagreement with  that is in YOUR mind(?) and yours alone.

                                      I do a bit more than hang speakers and run wires. My systems are installed in high dollar conference rooms of easily recognizable companies all over the country.

                                      You on the other hand keep parroting "information" that is not backed up by the real world. If you had any valuable info that was accurate, what are you doing here trying to "educate" such a small group? You should be taking out large ads on TV, the web and newspapers debunking all the information of thousands of engineers, testing labs, end users, etc.

                                      You cannot even quote me correctly.

                                      Your diatribes have degenerated into nothing more than humorous fodder.

                                      I will not respond to your silliness any further.

                                      Go have another beer.


                                      westom



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                                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                                        « Reply #31 on: June 16, 2009, 02:03:49 PM »
                                        No one cares about your repetitive claims  (ad nauseum).
                                        If this was so wrong, you would simply walk away.  But technical reality it is threat to your profit margins.  AV guys make massive profits promoting mythical protectors.  That $3 power strip with some $0.10 part selling for $25 and $150 is quite profitable.  If they install only one 'whole house' protector - protect everything - and don't foolishly replace the protectors every two or four years ... you have an incoming loss.

                                          If you were honest, you would have posted those manufacturer numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from those surges.  But even the manufacturer will not claim the many myths you have promoted.  You even claim an insulator called air is conductive.  Anyone with basic electrical knowledge would know that.  But AV equipment is easily installed without such knowledge.

                                          So where is that manufacturer spec?  Why so many personal attacks and not one specification?  My point all along.  Monster Cable also sells what you are recommending because the myths are so easily believed AND the profits are so massive.  Monster Cable sells speaker wire with polarity and plug-in protectors because both myths can be sold to the naïve for a massive profit margin.  Your protector also sells in a grocery store for $7.  And it also claims the same protection in its numeric specs.

                                          A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  When surge protection is required, protectors are located as close to earth as possible.  Surges are absorbed harmlessly in earth.  One protector does all that for about $1 per protected appliance.  And that protector remains functional even after direct lightning strikes.  A Cutler-Hammer version – completely with the dedicated earthing connection - sells in Lowes for less than $50.  So Gizmologist’s constant response is to disparage me rather than provide even one manufacturer spec that claims protection.   With his education, he understands how to constantly insult.  Provide spec numbers to prove his point – he cannot do that.

                                          A protector is only as effective as its earth ground … which is why every telco everywhere in the world does not use what Gizmologist has recommended.  Instead they need protection from about 100 surges during every thunderstorm – without damage.  So they spend less money for better protection – a properly earthed protector.

                                          How did Orange County Florida prevent surge damage?  They installed nothing recommended by Gizmologist or any other audio installer.  Instead they fixed what provides surge protection – earthing:
                                          http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

                                          A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – no matter how many times Gizmologist denies it, invents mythical surges, denies air is an insulator, or attacks me.

                                        Aegis



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                                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                                        « Reply #32 on: June 16, 2009, 03:06:25 PM »
                                        I checked the Internet for whole house surge surpressors run about $150 - $200 US. 

                                        Draining the power surge away before it enters the infrastructure is ideal, but it must be properly installed, and there's no guarantee that the lightning will strike where it's supposed to strike to prevent the surge.

                                        There's an old Murphy's Law corallary which states:  A transistor protected by a fast-blowing fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first.


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                                          Re: Power surges and lightning
                                          « Reply #33 on: June 16, 2009, 03:20:45 PM »
                                          I checked the Internet for whole house surge surpressors run about $150 - $200 US. 
                                          And the Cutler-Hammer protector sells in Lowes for $50.  Others:
                                          http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
                                          http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
                                          http://www.deltala.com/prod01.htm#LA302R

                                           'Whole hosue' protectors come from various sources are various prices.

                                            Does the surge enter through the roof?  Then that solution is a Ben Franklin lightning rod.  But the most common sources of surge damage on utility lines.  That wire highest on a telephone pole is a direct surge connection to your appliances.

                                          Secondary protection is to upgrade household earthing and a 'whole house' protector.    Primary surge protection ‘system’ should also be inspected:
                                            http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

                                            What is the one component in every protection layer (lightning rod, secondary protection, primary protection)?  Earth connection.  Earthing is the protection in every solution.  A protector without earthing protects from surges that typically do not cause damage – and cost tens or 100 times more money.

                                            Don’t understand why you are discussing fuses.  Fuses don’t protect electronics.  Worse, to provide protection, a fuse would have to block a surge.  Nothing blocks destructive surges.  So why do you even mention a fuse.

                                            No effective protector operates like a fuse.  But that is how ineffective protectors get promoted to the naive.  A protector is only as effective as what it must divert a surge to.   A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

                                          Gizmologist

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                                            Re: Power surges and lightning
                                            « Reply #34 on: June 16, 2009, 03:26:20 PM »
                                            What amuses me about westom's ravings is that he must have been suckered into buying monster cable and has decided to rail against them continually.

                                            The sad fact is the poor guy can't get past the idea of lightning as the sole source of surges when in actuality, spikes and surges are almost entirely locally generated either within the home by heavy appliances etc or from the  primary to the local pole transformer where the feeds are in common with numerous noise, spike and surge creating switching activities on the line etc.

                                            This is the primary purpose of the small scale surge protection devices.

                                            As I said earlier, he must believe that every single IT professional or media systems engineer is totally devoid of any degree of understanding on the concept of power conditioning.

                                            I am still trying to see where anyone posting here especially me, ever said or even intimated that grounding was unnecessary as long as a surge suppressor was on the AC line.

                                            Perhaps he should loosen the tin foil hat.  I think it has absorbed too many lightning hits and did NOT effectively shunted them to "earth ground".

                                            westom



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                                              Re: Power surges and lightning
                                              « Reply #35 on: June 16, 2009, 03:48:41 PM »
                                              The sad fact is the poor guy can't get past the idea of lightning as the sole source of surges when in actuality, spikes and surges are almost entirely locally generated either within the home by heavy appliances etc
                                                More myths from a stereo installer.  Good.  Gizmologist makes an excellent sounding board.  He is excellent at posting classic myths.

                                              1) If a heavy appliance creates surges, then the heavy appliance damages itself.

                                              2) If it creates surges, then a protector should be on the surge source - not on the 100 other victims of that surge.

                                              3) If heavy appliances (ie washing machine) create surges, then its GFCI is destroyed with each wash.  Do you replace your GFCI with every wash?

                                              4) If those interior generates surges exist, then dimmer switches, smoke detectors, GFCIs, etc are replaced daily.  Obviously those surges (if existing) are too tiny to cause any damage.  But then Gizmologist constantly posts subjectively (without perspective) – as if one surge could end the world.

                                              5) If appliances are creating surges, then one ‘whole house’ protector eliminates those surges.  Effective surge protection from lightning means other trivial and lesser surges are also made irrelevant.

                                                An AV installer recommends protectors due to no electrical knowledge.  But then stereo installed need not learn about simple electrical concepts such as wire impedance.  Gizmologist would not even know what that is – let alone understand why it is important.

                                                Lightning is not the only surge.  Earth a surge protector so that other surges are also made irrelevant.   Gizmologist conceded that his protectors do not protect from lightning.  Why spend massively more for his inferior solution?

                                                We earth one ‘whole house’ protector to make destructive surges irrelevant.  Of course, that protector is only as effective as its earth ground – including how short it connects to earth, no sharp bends, wire separated from other non-grounding wires, etc.   Simple electrical concepts for effective surge protection.

                                              Aegis



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                                              Re: Power surges and lightning
                                              « Reply #36 on: June 16, 2009, 03:57:08 PM »
                                              Quote
                                              Don’t understand why you are discussing fuses.

                                              As the old cartoon character used to say, That's a joke, son.  It was a joke in reference to the fact that, sometimes, the components are destroyed while the systems in place to protect them remain undamaged.



                                              "For you, a thousand times over." - "The Kite Runner"

                                              Gizmologist

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                                                Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                « Reply #37 on: June 16, 2009, 04:14:04 PM »
                                                Aegis it's too bad westom didn't get the joke. It is beginning to sound like he recites the mantra "earth ground, earth ground, earth ground" as a meditative aid.

                                                It is abundantly obvious he has no reading comprehension.

                                                He must be a salesman for whole house systems. He obviously understand zip about surges even though he claims to have knowledge superior to everyone else in the industry.

                                                Perhaps he could post a link to some dissertations he has conceived that are quoted in the engineering forums of IT professionals, power conditioning professionals, AV professionals, etc.

                                                Rave on westom!

                                                westom



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                                                  Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                  « Reply #38 on: June 16, 2009, 04:56:52 PM »
                                                  It was a joke in reference to the fact that, sometimes, the components are destroyed while the systems in place to protect them remain undamaged.
                                                  Joke or not – many do believe fuses are surge protection.  A fuse will remain intact while a surge passes through to damage semiconductors.  That fuse did exactly what it is supposed to do.

                                                    Joke or not - it is another opportunity to confront and expose a widely believed myth that fuses provide surge protection.  And that surge protectors do the same thing.

                                                    Many assume a protector fails - just like a fuse - to provide surge protection.   A grossly undersized protector fails so that the naive will recommend that protector.  A surge too small to harm electronics will often destroy a scam protector - just like a blowing fuse.  Then the naive recommend replacing a protector every two years or other myths.

                                                    A popular myth is, “My surge protectors sacrificed itself to save my computer.”  What?  It blew like a fuse?  Then it provided no surge protection.

                                                  Gizmologist

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                                                    Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                    « Reply #39 on: June 16, 2009, 05:11:19 PM »
                                                    http://allteccorp.com/more_commercial_surge_protection.php

                                                    Westom you may want to read the opening page, especially the last paragraph.

                                                    NO ONE ever said that outlet- based surge protectors are the ONLY device that should be necessary. However not everyone can afford the whole house system or they do not have access to it as a RENTER or apartment dweller.

                                                    Its is about time to lay your rants to rest.

                                                    I am done with you.

                                                    Peace

                                                    westom



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                                                      Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                      « Reply #40 on: June 16, 2009, 08:24:58 PM »
                                                      NO ONE ever said that outlet- based surge protectors are the ONLY device that should be necessary. However not everyone can afford the whole house system
                                                      If someone cannot afford a 'whole house' protector, then why did you recommend spending tens or 100 times more money only on plug-in protectors?  Why did you recommend protectors that do not even claim to provide that protection?

                                                        In your first post, you recommended spending much more money (up to $150 for the Monster Cable example) for power strip protectors that only do what a $7 grocery store protector does.
                                                      Quote
                                                      Second, if you use an outlet strip for your computer hardware, be sure it is a high quality surge protected style.
                                                      .
                                                      Then you recommended a UPS to do what a UPS does not do.  Somehow brownouts are hardware destructive?  Of course not.  Somehow that UPS provides protection from destructive surges?  Of course not.

                                                        Slowly, you are admitting what provides protection.  Your citation indicates you are finally grasping the point:
                                                        http://allteccorp.com/more_commercial_surge_protection.php
                                                      Quote
                                                      Surge protection devices limit voltage in the electrical circuit by diverting these high-energy impulses to grounding systems …
                                                      A plug-in protector without a properly earthed ‘whole house’ system may even contribute to appliance surge damage.  May even earth that surge destructively through the adjacent appliance.  Only earthing a ‘whole house’ protector eliminates that classic appliance damage – a protector earthing a surge destructively through nearby appliances.

                                                        A ‘whole house’ protector costs about $1 per protected appliance.  A plug-in protector (or the even less effective UPS) means tens or 100 times more money per appliance.  If money is a problem, then the ‘whole house’ protector is the only solution.

                                                        You basically got it right in your third paragraph, first post. 
                                                      Quote
                                                      First, I suggest that you look at the telephone demarc on your home. … to verify the device is still functioning properly and that a good earth ground is firmly attached.
                                                        Unfortunately, you did not understand why.  For example you did not understand why a ground wire must be so short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp bends, separated from non-grounding wires, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, every ‘whole house’ protector connected to the same earth ground, etc.  Had you not been so defiant, this would have been an educational discussion.  You had much to learn.

                                                        Your latest citation is a concession of what is always required for protection – that connection to earth ground – something to absorb surge energy so that surges need not enter a building.

                                                        A properly installed cable TV is already properly earthed before entering the building – no protector required.  The telephone demarc (NID box) already has a ‘whole house’ protector also connected to the same earth ground.   Missing in most homes is a ‘whole house’ protector on AC mains.  Essential for any surge protection is earthing that both meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical code (ie described above).

                                                        How to make surge protection even better?  Upgrade the earthing.  Better protection means Ufer grounds or a buried loop completely around the building.  These provide two essential functions for effective protection:  better conductivity and equipotential.  More concepts only just introduced because too much new information was already posted.  A suggestion as to how much more is known and still not yet posted.

                                                        That magic box protector is not protection – even though it is sold that way.  A protector is only a connecting device to protection.  However ‘whole house’ protection is not 100% effective.  That is the subjective conclusion.  Now let’s put numbers to that statement.  From the IEEE (Green Book)  Standard 142:
                                                      > Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or
                                                      > diverted to a path which will, if well designed and constructed,
                                                      > not result in damage.  Even this means is not positive,
                                                      > providing only 99.5-99.9% protection.  ...
                                                      > Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct
                                                      > strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
                                                      > 6000 years ...):

                                                        Install plug-in protectors (at maybe $10 or $100 per appliance) for maybe another 0.2% improvement.  Earthing and ‘whole house’ protectors are that essential.  Do so much.  Subjective, the ‘whole house’ protector is not 100% protection.  But then a potentially destructive surge once every 6,000 years – that one protector is more than sufficient.

                                                        Of course – that protector will only be as effective as its earth ground.  There is no way around that reality.  Surge energy must be dissipated where?

                                                        Despite so many insults, an irrefutable objective was to inform a majority of lurkers how see through lies routinely promoted in retail stores; to have protection so that even lightning storms result in no electronics damage.  Fundamental to that solution are proper connections to earthing AND inspection of the primary surge protection system.  No acceptable reason to have surge damage even to surge protectors.  But that means surges must be dissipated harmlessly in earth; not inside a building.

                                                      Again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  If no earth ground (obscenely overpriced plug-in protectors), then no effective protection.

                                                      Gizmologist

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                                                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                        « Reply #41 on: June 16, 2009, 09:28:06 PM »
                                                        As I said, rave on. You have not provided ONE published paper you as the penultimate expert have in your proffesional portfolio. You are saying nothing different from anyone else as far as the need to dissipate surges to ground. When all this started we were discussing the best solution for the homeowner sans installing the whole house system which according to the manufacturers if these systems does NOT provide 100 % protection. They ALL strongly urge the installation of outlet based systems with a UPS.

                                                        I suppose you would suggest (insist) that someone renting an apartment should purchase a whole system and install it in the distro system in the complex. Interesting way to get evicted.

                                                        We all understand about grounding. You do not understand the concept of how the majority surges occur and you evidently refuse to read any true expert information from the manufacturers, testing labs, installers etc.

                                                        As I said. make yourself a new tin foil hat and be sure it is well earthed with a 6 ft #4 copper cable and that the rod is at least 8 feet below grade.

                                                        I will be hoping for lightning.

                                                        Say good night Gracie.

                                                         

                                                        BC_Programmer


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                                                        Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                        « Reply #42 on: June 16, 2009, 10:18:28 PM »
                                                        I especially love this part:

                                                        Quote
                                                        1) If a heavy appliance creates surges, then the heavy appliance damages itself.

                                                        2) If it creates surges, then a protector should be on the surge source - not on the 100 other victims of that surge.

                                                        If the device creates surges, why don't you just unplug it, and run it from those surges.

                                                        last I checked we plug devices in because they can't generate power themselves. so the question here is how the device is ADDING to the AC current, rather then drawing from it.

                                                        Sure, stuff like washing machines can cause extra draw that often lowers the voltage to other devices on that circuit, but only under very specific circumstances will the device actually ADD power to the line.

                                                        those specific circumstances? I would imagine being immersed in water is one. Also one could probably hook up a giant generator to the insides of the machine. but really if your going to go looking for trouble you will find it.

                                                        Quote
                                                        (up to $150 for the Monster Cable example)

                                                        he already told you. there IS no monster cable example.


                                                        Quote
                                                        Somehow brownouts are hardware destructive?  Of course not. 

                                                        depends on the hardware. Take the typical, manufacturer made PC, with a excessively cheaply made power supply that sends POWER_GOOD without actually checking to see that the power is good for the motherboard. (this is far too common).

                                                        now imagine- there is a brownout on the line the PC is connected to- say it drops to 105 volts. Not too bad.

                                                        a typical power supply has a tolerance level- it can s maintain DC voltages at their proper levels when the power drops too low or goes to high momentarily. However, let's say there is a real brownout on the line- say, grandma just turned on the dryer.

                                                        the power dips to 105- and stays there. What SHOULD happen, is the power supply should revoke the POWER_GOOD signal, which puts the PC in a reboot loop.

                                                        But what often happens with cheap supplies is that they are simply made to route the Power Good signal from the +5 volt rail. Now, the problem here is that the POWER_GOOD signal as far as the motherboard is concerned, is fine for a variantion  from +2.4V through +6.0V. By the time the +5V rail gets that distorted, it's too late.

                                                        This could result in either permanent hardware damage, data corruption (as memory refresh cycle timings drop, the supplied power isn't enough during each Refresh, etc).


                                                        Now let's see here. What kind of power supply causes these problems to the PC? a Cheap one. Cheap. the very same kind of protection your professing in larger scale hardware yourself. So I think the real question is, if a 20$ power supply can't do what a 60$ one does- what makes you think that a 50$ whole house protector will do the job of a 100$ or 150$ one?

                                                        Like gizmologist said, your in some kind of blood feud with Monster Cable. I will agree that Monster Cable sells overpriced accessories. But it's also true, that in order to sell something the person buying needs to voluntarily pay. It's also true that other companies that DO sell higher quality products will charge more then their lower-quality competitors. This is usually because they don't use Korean children to build their products and actually hire professionals to do it. Not surprisingly this costs a little more. you profess that "whole house protection" is essential and yet you cheap out and suggest the cheapest one, likely made by children in some east asian country, who likely don't have the technical know-how nor the motive to give a *censored* about the quality of their work. All they want is their ration of gruel. Wether the device their creating helps prevent some middle-class families Dryer from being damaged really isn't on their list of priorities.



                                                        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                                        Gizmologist

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                                                          Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                          « Reply #43 on: June 16, 2009, 10:47:42 PM »
                                                          here is a well written and concise paper from a true expert in the field. Funny how he does not disagree with anything said about surge suppression at all levels.


                                                          http://www.rbs2.com/pq.htm

                                                          JJ 3000



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                                                          Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                          « Reply #44 on: June 17, 2009, 01:40:21 AM »
                                                          So 500 or 1000 joules will absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules?  You made that claim

                                                          No I didn't.

                                                           
                                                          We engineers even traced surge damage through a network of powered off computers BECAUSE that protector was adjacent to computers.
                                                          So, none of those computers were actually connected to the suppressor? They were adjacent to it? In other words - they were next to that particular suppressor, not connected to it right? That's amazing! Sometimes electricity has a mind of it's own.

                                                          Y'all engineers know more about that stuff than I do.

                                                           
                                                          We repaired all computers by literally following each path to earth (created by a plug-in protector) and replacing every damaged semiconductor

                                                          I take a bit of a different approach when it comes to computer repair. I examine each one and try to determine what steps need to taken to resolve the issue that each computer is having. Perhaps I should start following the path to the ground.

                                                          By the way, I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but  a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. I just wanted to educate you on this. I reiterate:  a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Get that through your head and stop claiming that the ground has nothing to do with electrical protection! The juice needs to flow into the ground. Get it?
                                                          « Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 01:52:17 AM by JJ 3000 »
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                                                            Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                            « Reply #45 on: June 17, 2009, 09:24:17 AM »
                                                            JJ 3000 I love westoms' claim that they "replaced every semiconductor" in every computer.

                                                            Evidently the man has no clue of the construction of a computer's MoBo, power supply, drives, etc. aside from the old wooden ones with a metal wire and little wooden balls.

                                                            But hey, a computer is a computer, right?

                                                            westom



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                                                              Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                              « Reply #46 on: June 17, 2009, 09:53:36 AM »
                                                              Funny how he does not disagree with anything said about surge suppression at all levels.
                                                              Read what he has posted.  We agree.

                                                              1) UPS does not provide hardware protection; is for data protection.

                                                              2) 'Whole house' protection is essential.

                                                              3) Plug-in protectors are for low power - tiny - all but not destructive surges.  IEEE put numbers to it.  99.5% protection using proper earthing (whole house solution).  Another 0.2% protection from those plug-in protectors.

                                                              4)  The author discussed ferromagnetic protection.  I also discussed series mode filters.  Other solutions exist.  But none does so much protection for so little money as a properly earthed 'whole house' protector – and for a paltry $1 per appliance.  Nothing but a ‘whole house’ solution protects so many critical appliances that also need protection such as GFCIs, furnace, dishwasher, and (what is most needed when surges occur?)  smoke detector.

                                                                Where are your manufacturer spec sheets that prove that plug-in protector is effective?  It does protect from a type of surge that is typically not destructive.  Why does the manufacturer not make the claims you have posted?  They would rather not admit what little is accomplished from something so expensive.  Plug-in protectors are for low power (rarely destructive) transients – but cost tens and 100 times more money.  The informed consumer instead installs a ‘whole house’ protector – to even protect plug-in protectors from surge damage.

                                                              westom



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                                                                Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                                « Reply #47 on: June 17, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »
                                                                If the device creates surges, why don't you just unplug it, and run it from those surges. …

                                                                But what often happens with cheap supplies is that they are simply made to route the Power Good signal from the +5 volt rail. Now, the problem here is that the POWER_GOOD signal as far as the motherboard is concerned, is fine for a variantion  from +2.4V through +6.0V. By the time the +5V rail gets that distorted, it's too late.

                                                                This could result in either permanent hardware damage,
                                                                 What is your confused and disjointed nonsense about unplugging heavy appliances?  Those ‘surges’ exist only in junk science – and where the most electrically ignorant claim to be an *expert*.   Those ‘surges’ don’t exist in reality as demonstrated by five simple examples.  ‘Surges’ do exist when you invent fiction. Then prove your fiction with degrogatory remarks.

                                                                When did 2.4 to 6 volts become hardware destructive?  Well, you clearly did not learn electronics before posting.  Manufacturer datasheets are quite clear about this. Even 6 volts does not harm 5 volt electronics – had you read page one of every datasheet.

                                                                  Electronics design includes this routine testing.  Run AC voltage up and down to make sure electronics worked 100% normal even at voltage extremes.  All my designs work even at 85 volts (which is typical).  Below 85 volts was a point where power simply cut off.  And no power good signal exists.  But all that has suddenly changed.  Because the uneducated decreed otherwise, now all my design prototypes were self-destructing.   More nonsense posted by BC_Programmer who might have a high school diploma.

                                                                  Brownouts and low voltage never cause electronics damage.  But when a junk scientist uses observation tempered by wild speculation, has no design knowledge, never read datasheets, but always knows; then brownouts magically become destructive.  A warning to others about hardware myths routinely parroted by BC_Programmer.  A UPS is only for data protection.  A UPS provides no hardware protection from brownouts.  Brownouts do not cause electronics damage – no matter how many times he posts that lie.

                                                                  Numerous industry standards (including some for computer power supplies) state brownouts are not destructive.  Even in 1970, the voltage charts contained this phrase for ‘brownouts’: “No Damage Region”.   Decades before PCs existed, industry standards required low voltage to never cause damage.  And still, the naïve *know* otherwise.  

                                                                  BC_Programmers logic: I heard this is true; therefore it must be true.  No wonder the Silicon Valley needs so many immigrants from China and India to do the work.  BC_Programmer is a proud example of our education system.  He feels; therefore he *knows*.  He heard; therefore it must be true.

                                                                  Data protection (not hardware protection) is that UPS’s job.   Brownouts are harmful to motorized appliances; and are so normal to electronics that some electronics internally create brownouts during power up and power off.  Brownouts are normal – not destructive.

                                                                BC_Programmer


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                                                                Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                                « Reply #48 on: June 17, 2009, 11:28:23 AM »
                                                                westom's logic:

                                                                "I am right. Everybody else is wrong. What I do not understand is copious; but at the same time non-existent. Those that disagree with me must have inferior education levels, regardless of how redundant any such assertion might be. I will assert my truth and refute any rebuttals by passing it off as junk science."


                                                                in short:

                                                                Quote
                                                                depends on the hardware. Take the typical, manufacturer made PC, with a excessively cheaply made power supply that sends POWER_GOOD without actually checking to see that the power is good for the motherboard. (this is far too common).

                                                                now imagine- there is a brownout on the line the PC is connected to- say it drops to 105 volts. Not too bad.

                                                                a typical power supply has a tolerance level- it can s maintain DC voltages at their proper levels when the power drops too low or goes to high momentarily. However, let's say there is a real brownout on the line- say, grandma just turned on the dryer.

                                                                the power dips to 105- and stays there. What SHOULD happen, is the power supply should revoke the POWER_GOOD signal, which puts the PC in a reboot loop.

                                                                But what often happens with cheap supplies is that they are simply made to route the Power Good signal from the +5 volt rail. Now, the problem here is that the POWER_GOOD signal as far as the motherboard is concerned, is fine for a variantion  from +2.4V through +6.0V. By the time the +5V rail gets that distorted, it's too late.

                                                                This could result in either permanent hardware damage, data corruption (as memory refresh cycle timings drop, the supplied power isn't enough during each Refresh, etc).


                                                                Now let's see here. What kind of power supply causes these problems to the PC? a Cheap one. Cheap. the very same kind of protection your professing in larger scale hardware yourself. So I think the real question is, if a 20$ power supply can't do what a 60$ one does- what makes you think that a 50$ whole house protector will do the job of a 100$ or 150$ one?

                                                                do you have an actual rebuttal to this? or just further blind assertions?


                                                                Or how about this?

                                                                Quote
                                                                Power-Protection Systems

                                                                Power-protection systems do just what the name implies: They protect your equipment from the effects of power surges and power failures. In particular, power surges and spikes can damage computer equipment, and a loss of power can result in lost data. In this section, you learn about the four primary types of power-protection devices available and when you should use them.

                                                                Before considering any further levels of power protection, you should know that a quality power supply already affords you a substantial amount of protection. High-end power supplies from the vendors I recommend are designed to provide protection from higher-than-normal voltages and currents, and they provide a limited amount of power-line noise filtering. Some of the inexpensive aftermarket power supplies probably do not have this sort of protection. If you have an inexpensive computer, further protecting your system might be wise.

                                                                Note:
                                                                All the power-protection features in the power supply inside your computer require that the computer's AC power cable be connected to a ground.

                                                                Many older homes do not have three-prong (grounded) outlets to accommodate grounded devices.

                                                                Do not use a three-pronged adapter (that bypasses the three-prong requirement and enables you to connect to a two-prong socket) to plug a surge suppressor, computer, or UPS into a two-pronged outlet. They often don't provide a good ground and can inhibit the capabilities of your power-protection devices.

                                                                You also should test your power sockets to ensure they are grounded. Sometimes outlets, despite having three-prong sockets, are not connected to a ground wire; an inexpensive socket tester (available at most hardware stores) can detect this condition.

                                                                Of course, the easiest form of protection is to turn off and unplug your computer equipment (including your modem) when a thunderstorm is imminent. However, when this is not possible, other alternatives are available.

                                                                Power supplies should stay within operating specifications and continue to run a system even if any of these power line disturbances occur:

                                                                • Voltage drop to 80V for up to 2 seconds
                                                                • Voltage drop to 70V for up to .5 seconds
                                                                • Voltage surge of up to 143V for up to 1 second
                                                                Most high-quality power supplies (or the attached systems) will not be damaged by the following occurrences:

                                                                • Full power outage
                                                                • Any voltage drop (brownout)
                                                                • A spike of up to 2,500V


                                                                Because of their internal protection, many computer manufacturers that use high-quality power supplies state in their documentation that external surge suppressors are not necessary with their systems.

                                                                To verify the levels of protection built in to the existing power supply in a computer system, an independent laboratory subjected several unprotected PC systems to various spikes and surges of up to 6,000V—considered the maximum level of surge that can be transmitted to a system through an electrical outlet. Any higher voltage would cause the power to arc to the ground within the outlet. None of the systems sustained permanent damage in these tests. The worst thing that happened was that some of the systems rebooted or shut down when the surge was more than 2,000V. Each system restarted when the power switch was toggled after a shutdown.

                                                                I do not use any real form of power protection on my systems, and they have survived near-direct lightning strikes and powerful surges. The most recent incident, only 50 feet from my office, was a direct lightning strike to a brick chimney that blew the top of the chimney apart. None of my systems (which were running at the time) were damaged in any way from this incident; they just shut themselves down. I was able to restart each system by toggling the power switches. An alarm system located in the same office, however, was destroyed by this strike. I am not saying that lightning strikes or even much milder spikes and surges can't damage computer systems—another nearby lightning strike did destroy a modem and serial adapter installed in one of my systems. I was just lucky that the destruction did not include the motherboard.

                                                                This discussion points out an important oversight in some power-protection strategies: Do not forget to provide protection from spikes and surges on the phone line.

                                                                The automatic shutdown of a computer during power disturbances is a built-in function of most high-quality power supplies. You can reset the power supply by flipping the power switch from on to off and back on again. Some power supplies even have an auto-restart function. This type of power supply acts the same as others in a massive surge or spike situation: It shuts down the system. The difference is that after normal power resumes, the power supply waits for a specified delay of 3–6 seconds and then resets itself and powers the system back up. Because no manual switch resetting is required, this feature might be desirable in systems functioning as network servers or in those found in other unattended locations.

                                                                The first time I witnessed a large surge cause an immediate shutdown of all my systems, I was extremely surprised. All the systems were silent, but the monitor and modem lights were still on. My first thought was that everything was blown, but a simple toggle of each system-unit power switch caused the power supplies to reset, and the units powered up with no problem. Since that first time, this type of shutdown has happened to me several times, always without further problems.



                                                                Surge Suppressors (Protectors)
                                                                The simplest form of power protection is any one of the commercially available surge protectors—that is, devices inserted between the system and the power line. These devices, which cost between $20 and $200, can absorb the high-voltage transients produced by nearby lightning strikes and power equipment. Some surge protectors can be effective for certain types of power problems, but they offer only very limited protection.

                                                                Surge protectors use several devices, usually metal-oxide varistors (MOVs), that can clamp and shunt away all voltages above a certain level. MOVs are designed to accept voltages as high as 6,000V and divert any power above 200V to ground. MOVs can handle normal surges, but powerful surges such as direct lightning strikes can blow right through them. MOVs are not designed to handle a very high level of power and self-destruct while shunting a large surge. These devices therefore cease to function after either a single large surge or a series of smaller ones. The real problem is that you can't easily tell when they no longer are functional. The only way to test them is to subject the MOVs to a surge, which destroys them. Therefore, you never really know whether your so-called surge protector is protecting your system.

                                                                Some surge protectors have status lights that let you know when a surge large enough to blow the MOVs has occurred. A surge suppressor without this status indicator light is useless because you never know when it has stopped protecting.

                                                                Underwriters Laboratories has produced an excellent standard that governs surge suppressors, called UL 1449. Any surge suppressor that meets this standard is a very good one and definitely offers a line of protection beyond what the power supply in your PC already offers. The only types of surge suppressors worth buying, therefore, should have two features:

                                                                • Conformance to the UL 1449 standard
                                                                • A status light indicating when the MOVs are blown

                                                                Units that meet the UL 1449 specification say so on the packaging or directly on the unit. If this standard is not mentioned, it does not conform. Therefore, you should avoid it.

                                                                Another good feature to have in a surge suppressor is a built-in circuit breaker that can be manually reset rather than a fuse. The breaker protects your system if it or a peripheral develops a short. These better surge suppressors usually cost about $40.

                                                                Phone Line Surge Protectors
                                                                In addition to protecting the power lines, it is critical to provide protection to your systems from any connected phone lines. If you are using a modem or fax board that is plugged into the phone system, any surges or spikes that travel through the phone line can damage your system. In many areas, the phone lines are especially susceptible to lightning strikes, which are the leading cause of fried modems and damage to the computer equipment attached to them.

                                                                Several companies manufacture or sell simple surge protectors that plug in between your modem and the phone line. These inexpensive devices can be purchased from most electronics supply houses. Most of the cable and communication product vendors listed in the Vendor List (on the DVD that accompanies this book) sell these phone line surge protectors. Some of the standard power line surge protectors include connectors for phone line protection as well.

                                                                Line Conditioners
                                                                In addition to high-voltage and current conditions, other problems can occur with incoming power. The voltage might dip below the level needed to run the system, resulting in a brownout. Forms of electrical noise other than simple voltage surges or spikes might travel through the power line, such as radio-frequency interference or electrical noise caused by motors or other inductive loads.

                                                                Remember two things when you wire together digital devices (such as computers and their peripherals):

                                                                Any wire can act as an antenna and have voltage induced in it by nearby electromagnetic fields, which can come from other wires, telephones, CRTs, motors, fluorescent fixtures, static discharge, and, of course, radio transmitters.

                                                                Digital circuitry responds with surprising efficiency to noise of even a volt or two, making those induced voltages particularly troublesome. The electrical wiring in your building can act as an antenna, picking up all kinds of noise and disturbances.

                                                                A line conditioner can handle many of these types of problems. A line conditioner is designed to remedy a variety of problems. It filters the power, bridges brownouts, suppresses high-voltage and current conditions, and generally acts as a buffer between the power line and the system. A line conditioner does the job of a surge suppressor, and much more. It is more of an active device, functioning continuously, rather than a passive device that activates only when a surge is present. A line conditioner provides true power conditioning and can handle myriad problems. It contains transformers, capacitors, and other circuitry that can temporarily bridge a brownout or low-voltage situation. These units usually cost $100–$300, depending on the power-handling capacity of the unit.

                                                                Backup Power
                                                                The next level of power protection includes backup power-protection devices. These units can provide power in case of a complete blackout, thereby providing the time necessary for an orderly system shutdown. Two types are available: the standby power supply (SPS) and the uninterruptible power supply (UPS). The UPS is a special device because it does much more than just provide backup power—it is also the best kind of line conditioner you can buy.

                                                                Standby Power Supplies
                                                                A standby power supply is known as an offline device: It functions only when normal power is disrupted. An SPS system uses a special circuit that can sense the AC line current. If the sensor detects a loss of power on the line, the system quickly switches over to a standby battery and power inverter. The power inverter converts the battery power to 120V AC power, which is then supplied to the system.

                                                                SPS systems do work, but sometimes a problem occurs during the switch to battery power. If the switch is not fast enough, the computer system shuts down or reboots anyway, which defeats the purpose of having the backup power supply. A truly outstanding SPS adds to the circuit a ferroresonant transformer, which is a large transformer with the capability to store a small amount of power and deliver it during the switch time. This device functions as a buffer on the power line, giving the SPS almost uninterruptible capability.


                                                                SPS units also might have internal line conditioning of their own. Under normal circumstances, most cheaper units place your system directly on the regular power line and offer no conditioning. The addition of a ferroresonant transformer to an SPS gives it extra regulation and protection capabilities because of the buffer effect of the transformer. SPS devices without the ferroresonant transformer still require the use of a line conditioner for full protection. SPS systems usually cost between a hundred and several thousand dollars, depending on the quality and power-output capacity.

                                                                Uninterruptible Power Supplies
                                                                Perhaps the best overall solution to any power problem is to provide a power source that is conditioned and that can't be interrupted—which is the definition of an uninterruptible power supply. UPSs are known as online systems because they continuously function and supply power to your computer systems. Because some companies advertise ferroresonant SPS devices as though they were UPS devices, many now use the term true UPS to describe a truly online system. A true UPS system is constructed in much the same way as an SPS system; however, because the computer is always operating from the battery, there is no switching circuit.

                                                                In a true UPS, your system always operates from the battery. A voltage inverter converts from 12V DC to 120V AC. You essentially have your own private power system that generates power independently of the AC line. A battery charger connected to the line or wall current keeps the battery charged at a rate equal to or greater than the rate at which power is consumed.

                                                                When the AC current supplying the battery charger fails, a true UPS continues functioning undisturbed because the battery-charging function is all that is lost. Because the computer was already running off the battery, no switch takes place and no power disruption is possible. The battery begins discharging at a rate dictated by the amount of load your system places on the unit, which (based on the size of the battery) gives you plenty of time to execute an orderly system shutdown. Based on an appropriately scaled storage battery, the UPS functions continuously, generating power and preventing unpleasant surprises. When the line power returns, the battery charger begins recharging the battery, again with no interruption.


                                                                Many SPS systems are advertised as though they are true UPS systems. The giveaway is the unit's switch time. If a specification for switch time exists, the unit can't be a true UPS because UPS units never switch. However, a good SPS with a ferroresonant transformer can virtually equal the performance of a true UPS at a lower cost.

                                                                UPS cost is a direct function of both the length of time it can continue to provide power after a line current failure and how much power it can provide. You therefore should purchase a UPS that provides enough power to run your system and peripherals and enough time to close files and provide an orderly shutdown. Remember, however, to manually perform a system shutdown procedure during a power outage. You will probably need your monitor plugged into the UPS and the computer. Be sure the UPS you purchase can provide sufficient power for all the devices you must connect to it.

                                                                Because of a true UPS's almost total isolation from the line current, it is unmatched as a line conditioner and surge suppressor. The best UPS systems add a ferroresonant transformer for even greater power conditioning and protection capability. This type of UPS is the best form of power protection available. The price, however, can be high. To find out just how much power your computer system requires, look at the UL sticker on the back of the unit. This sticker lists the maximum power draw in watts, or sometimes in just volts and amperes. If only voltage and amperage are listed, multiply the two figures to calculate the wattage.

                                                                As an example, if the documentation for a system indicates that the computer can require as much as 120V at a maximum current draw of 5 amps, the maximum power the system can draw is about 550 watts. This wattage is for a system with every slot full, two hard disks, and one floppy—in other words, a system at the maximum possible level of expansion. The system should never draw any more power than that; if it does, a 5-amp fuse in the power supply will blow. This type of system usually draws an average of 300 watts. However, to be safe when you make calculations for UPS capacity, be conservative; use the 550-watt figure. Adding a monitor that draws 100 watts brings the total to 650 watts or more. Therefore, to run two fully loaded systems, you'd need a 1,100-watt UPS. And don't forget two monitors, each drawing 100 watts. Therefore, the total is 1,300 watts. A UPS of that capacity or greater costs approximately $500–$700. Unfortunately, that is what the best level of protection costs. Most companies can justify this type of expense only for critical-use PCs, such as network servers.

                                                                In addition to the total available output power (wattage), several other factors can distinguish one UPS from another. The addition of a ferroresonant transformer improves a unit's power conditioning and buffering capabilities. Good units also have an inverter that produces a true sine wave output; the cheaper ones might generate a square wave. A square wave is an approximation of a sine wave with abrupt up-and-down voltage transitions. The abrupt transitions of a square wave are not compatible with some computer equipment power supplies. Be sure that the UPS you purchase produces power that is compatible with your computer equipment. Every unit has a specification for how long it can sustain output at the rated level. If your systems draw less than the rated level, you have some additional time.

                                                                Some of the many sources of power protection equipment include American Power Conversion (APC), Tripp Lite, and Best Power. These companies sell a variety of UPS, SPS, line, and surge protector products.



                                                                of course, your opinion on the quote is irrelevant, because you are clearly a troll.
                                                                I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

                                                                westom



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                                                                  Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                                  « Reply #49 on: June 17, 2009, 02:34:31 PM »
                                                                  JJ 3000 I love westoms' claim that they "replaced every semiconductor" in every computer.
                                                                  Again demonstrates why stereo installers need not know how electricity works.  And why America needs so many immigrants from India and China to do the work.

                                                                    I said, “replacing every damaged semiconductor”.   With simple electrical knowledge, then you would know that is only a few semiconductors.  And you also know *why* so few components are damaged – from a concept even taught in second grade science class.

                                                                    But reality is not his popular myth.  A junk scientist sees damage.  Then *knows* a surge damages all motherboard ICs.  Nonsense.  Very few components are damaged during a surge that passed through the motherboard to find earth, destructively, via the network. Gizmologist would have known that with basic electrical knowledge, with surge experience, OR by first reading what was actually posted.  Instead, he only reads what he wants to read.  Since you *know* without first learning facts, you even recommended Monster Cable (and other so called ‘high quality’) surge protectors. 

                                                                    Only the most technically ignorant believe surges damage "every semiconductor".   You assumed because, and again, due to near zero electrical knowledge.   Explains why you recommend what even the manufacturer will not claim.  Had you read what was written (rather than intentionally distort), that quote would read, "replacing every damaged semiconductor".  But that means learning rather than parroting what you were told to believe by a sales brochures. That means being honest.   Honesty also explains why you also cannot quote what was really written; cannot even grasp how electricity really works.

                                                                    Those who recommend plug-in protectors and UPSes will read selectively.   Where is that manufacturer spec that claims protection?  Still not provided for one obvious and simple reason.   Even the manufacturer will not claim what urban myth purveyors routinely post.  Only the most technically ignorant (and dishonest) will refuse to post even one manufacturer numeric specification.   One who cannot accurately quote four words should have no problem inventing manufacturer specs.  Oh.  Inventing numbers means one must have minimal electrical knowledge.  Could be too difficult for the many naysayers.

                                                                    Many plug-in protectors (in fine print) admit that reality.  “Does not protect from lightning”.  Why install surge protectors?  To protect from direct lightning strikes and from all other lesser surges.  Why would anyone recommend a protector that does not protect?  Selective reading.   Misquoting.  Insufficient knowledge.  Dishonesty.  Excessive ego.  No education (even forgot second grade science).  Does not know how electricity works. Which means he can hang speakers for a living.

                                                                    Also explains why Monster Cable identified an obscenely profitable market selling both plug-in protectors and ‘speaker wire with polarity’ to *experts* such as Gizmologist.  No wonder America needs so many immigrants to do work that requires an education (including second grade science).  He cannot even quote a few words in a sentence without getting it wrong.  Honesty is not the naysayers.

                                                                    Meanwhile, informed consumers upgrade household earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 code. Then spend tens or 100 times less money for one ‘whole house’ protector.  Informed consumers are too smart  to fall for Gizmologist’s scams and constant insults.  Informed consumers install what has been proven effective for the past 100+ years.  Amazing how the kids know that 100 years of knowledge is wrong.  Selective reading.  Misquoting.  Posting insults.  Perfect examples of a plug-in protector spokesman.  No wonder the Silicon Valley must go to India and China for their employees.  Gizmologist is too busy.
                                                                   

                                                                  Gizmologist

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                                                                    Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                                    « Reply #50 on: June 17, 2009, 03:00:12 PM »
                                                                    BC programmer is right, you're nothing but a sad little troll.

                                                                     Go put on the tin foil; hat and watch your collection of Flash Gordon movies.

                                                                    westom



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                                                                      Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                                      « Reply #51 on: June 17, 2009, 03:34:39 PM »
                                                                      BC programmer is right, you're nothing but a sad little troll.
                                                                        Again, your high school diploma is showing.  Is it really counterfeit?

                                                                        Where is that manufacturer spec that claims protection?  No product recommended by Gizmologist (or BC_Programmer) claims that protection.  Why do THEY know it works?  Hitler’s Brown Shirts also knew Jews were vermin only because they were told how to think.  Amazing how many know only the first thing they are told.  Then disparage others to prove themselves.

                                                                        Knowledge based only in hate and insults is alive and well.    Knowledge based in education and numbers?  No wonder the Silicon Valley needs so many employees from India and China.

                                                                      Where is that manufacturer spec that claims protection?  Reading the fine print, some will admit that it does not protect from typically destructive surges.  With eyes glazed over in hate, he could not quote accurately and he did not see that fine print warning.  No problem.  He *knows*.   Meanwhile, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground – no matter how many times he posts personal attacks. 

                                                                      Gizmologist recommended ineffective and obscenely expensive protectors, with no earthing, that include products such as Monster Cable.

                                                                        An informed consumer can purchase one effective ‘whole house’ protector from a long list of more responsible companies including Keison, Polyphaser, Leviton, Siemens, Square D, General Electric, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer.  A Cutler-Hammer ‘whole house’ protector sells for less than $50 in Lowes.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why household earthing is upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements.

                                                                      patio

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                                                                      Re: Power surges and lightning
                                                                      « Reply #52 on: June 17, 2009, 06:28:06 PM »
                                                                      I've seen enough...

                                                                      Topic Closed.
                                                                      " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "