Power surges and lightning

[Gizmologist]

Among all you other misstatements Westom, you claim FALSELY that I recommend Monster cable surge protectors. Please copy and paste the post where I mentioned Monster Cable anything. That was purely YOUR invention. The same goes for running grounding wiring from  service entrance THROUGH the foundation of a building.

Anyone wishing to spend all of 2 minutes googling the info I provided will find hundreds of articles, posts etc stating the same.

I know it's hard to think rationally when you are drunk, but I never claimed 100 % protection from direct lightning strikes by any specific brand of surge protector etc. I never cited such claims made by anyone.

The power and telco operations do a dam* good job isolating end users from lightning damage. There are 3 types of surges that equipment is prone to capacitive, induced and resistive.  The commercially surge protectors are tested and do conform with current requirements for shunting all but the most extreme voltage fluctuations caused by direct lightning.

I am so glad that you alone feel that your opinions are the only true and accurate source of information on this subject and that ALL the professionals in the business, the testing laboratories and the government agencies are all in a false sense of security.

How did we ever make it so far without your benevolent and magnanimous bestowal of such a magical science?

In case you can't figure it out, that last question was rhetorical.

[BC_Programmer]

Thank you gizmologist. All I could muster in the other thread he pulled this in was a request for him to STFU.


Additionally it's nice to have some good information on this that wasn't pulled out of ones *censored*- as was most surely the case for Westoms info.



As has been said- it's a shame that all the people who know how to run this country are busy cutting hair and driving cabs.

[westom]

Among all you other misstatements Westom, you claim FALSELY that I recommend Monster cable surge protectors.

  Protectors you have recommended are same protector circuit found in Monster Cable's $75 and $150 products.  You stated a more expensive protector is better.  That means Monster Cable must be better than APC, Panamax, etc – your logic.

  Why would fancy paint and different plastic body shape make it better?  You recommended products based on price.  Same APC circuit is also sold under the Monster Cable name.  Even has similar manufacturer spec numbers.

  So now you deny an expensive protector is better?   Which is it?  Your post recommended protectors without earthing and that costs more money – ie Monster Cable.  Now you deny it?

  So now you post insults?  Insults prove you learned this stuff before posting?  You designed and built this stuff?  Then suffered direct lightning strikes without damage?  Of course not.  You know only because that is the popular myth - propaganda.  Meanwhile one who did this stuff even decades ago also provided solutions based in the science.  Same solutions that worked so well even 100 years ago.  Same solutions that say your every recommendation is bogus – based only in popular myth and insults.

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

  And still you invent myths.  Now you invented three types of surges.  Capacitive, induced, and resistive.  Fine.  Show me where your APC, et al protector lists protection from each type?  You said these magic boxes “do a dam* good job isolating end users from lightning damage.”  That means stopping and absorbing each type of surge.  OK.  Then it says so in manufacturer specs.  Where?  Oh.  You know because you learned where?  Junk science is alive and well in America.

  I keep asking for manufacturer specs that support your claims?  Why are specs never provided?  None exist.  You are inventing surges.  Then inventing protection that even the manufacturer will not claim.

  I can also find hundreds of articles that prove Saddam had WMDs from the same myth purveyors.  After all, if the propaganda says it is true, then it must be true.  That is your logic.  Your logic complete without numbers or citations – the definition of junk science reasoning.

  Meanwhile, protection even from direct lightning strikes is routine.  Earthing and ‘whole house’ protectors are also routine when damage is not an option.  But that must not be true because I did not insult you?

From the National Institute of Science and Technology is science that disputes your thousands of Communication majors (propaganda experts):
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your
> surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
> ground.  The best surge protection in the world can
> be useless if grounding is not done properly.

 Or from the US Air Force:
> 15. Surge Protection.
> ... Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the
> conductor enters the interior of the facility. Devices
> commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas
> tube arresters, and transzorbs.

  Or the planning guide for Sun Microsystems server rooms:
>  Section 6.4.7  Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted.
> The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to
> identify any paths for surge entry into the data center.  Surge
> arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the
> potential for lightning damage within the data center. These
> should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to
> ground for the surge energy.

  Professionals who install surge protection so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage do not waste money on products you have recommended.  Instead, they use protectors that also cost less money.  And always make that short and dedicated connection to earth.  Should we believe a majority who are propaganda experts or who know only because others post insults?   Or should we learn from the fewer who actually understand science before posting?

Protection means surge energy dissipates harmlessly in earth before entering a building.  As the above cited professionals note: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 

[JJ 3000]

I understand science

[BC_Programmer]

I'm sure the cited professionals do their job and don't drone ON AND ON AND ON about how they know what's best for everybody involved.

your talking about SERVER ROOMS and MILITARY INSTALLATIONS

Not bloody residental housing.

guess what? chances are, the type of "whole building" surge protection you so adamantly profess is not possible due to zoning specifications; and even if it is- it's prohibitively expensive.

Go with what was already mentioned in another thread. unplug the *censored* things when there is a storm. then it doesn't make a bloody difference the amount of theory you provide, since it's more effective then any "whole building" solution. and, even more importantly- it costs nothing.

Junk science is alive and well in America.

your living proof.

regarding the surge protector stuff- he doesn't mean, More expensive is better. he means higher-quality is better. big difference. it just so happens, that for the most part higher-quality corresponds to higher prices. "Monster Cable" is however overpriced, even if their devices are high quality. (btw, Gold, as we all should know, is the best conductor of electricity; wether it's conductivity is any use with regards to surge protectors, or any of their devices is another matter altogether, but I believe that is the theory.

open up a 10 dollar surge protector.

Now open up a 60 dollar one.

you can't, at any point, claim that they posess the same insides. the 10 dollar surge protector is often only a surge protector in name; whereas the more expensive one has far higher quality capacitance and load switching, which is often simply non-existent from the cheaper one.

Take Dynex and APC, as two examples of "cheap" and "Expensive" respectively. While nobody can claim that Price-Quality is always true, under most circumstances they roughly correspond; except for the highest priced items, where you generally pay extra simply because of the brand itself, not necessarily their product.

[Gizmologist]

BC P it's a lost cause with Westom.

WE know we are right, the computer industry knows we are right, the audio visual industry knows, the professional sound industry knows, the television production industry knows and the list goes on.

Little man westom likes to add his own details and claims ad nauseum.

He probably changed tires on a field generator in the Air Force.

I have been installing high end systems 150k to 3 mill. AV systems all over the country for 40 years. Haven't lost a single one yet to surges. I must be doing something right.

Peace to you.

Gizmologist

BTW westom don't bother replying since I am  done wasting time on you.

[JJ 3000]

Most people tend to spend a lot of money on their computers and then suddenly get cheap when it comes to  buying a surge suppressor. If you've invested a lot of cash in your PC it is worth the extra money to protect your investment.

The most important thing to look for when buying a surge suppressor is the joules rating. A joule is a unit of of electrical energy. The joules rating describes how much electrical energy the suppressor can handle before it fails. So the more joules the better the protection. My surge suppressor rates at 1,550 joules.

My surge suppressor also comes with cable and telephone connections. This helps protect against surges from the cable modem and, If i had it, the DSL.

Furthermore, when buying a surge suppressor, make sure that it has a test/reset button. They Will still carry electricity when they stop providing protection.

A lot of companies provide cash guarantees against system failure caused by surges. This accounts for the higher prices on some models.

[brett74]

Another reason people's computers get fried is that not too many people will check the little light that says protected on the surge protector they just see that the light for power is on and they think its okay not knowing that they are not protected and keep on using them cause even though the light is out they think that they are still protected by it but they are not and usually when they realise it it's too late and the computer components are fried. I usually replace mine about every year to 2 years cause even though there are not storms you still get power surges. And also if you plug one in and it says it's not protected either the protector is bad or you have a bad or missing ground.

[BC_Programmer]

also, if you use a high-quality power supply, in the event that a surge get's to it, it's supposed to sacrifice itself for the rest of the PC. But  manufacturer's power supplies are pretty cheap in comparison to the parts in them.

[Gizmologist]

Good point Brett. I usually change my surge blocks out about every 4 years. The over voltage devices in surge protector systems do have a limited useful life span. They can degrade and may not actually be able to shunt voltage spikes effectively.

I also recommend replacing the gel cell batteries in UPS systems about every 2 years - 3 years max.

[BC_Programmer]

erm... why a new topic 

[Gizmologist]

Sorry, clicked the wrong button.

[hot dog]

just have to throw in my few cents..  

I've found reading this thread quite entertaining, yet educational   

I've taken quite a few electronics courses and sometimes it's difficult to conceptualize some applications of electronics until you come across live situations....For instance, "earth ground,"  Quite a simple concept, yet when thrown into a mix of variables like it was here, you can clearly see that it's only a piece of the puzzle..

[westom]

The most important thing to look for when buying a surge suppressor is the joules rating. A joule is a unit of of electrical energy. The joules rating describes how much electrical energy the suppressor can handle before it fails. So the more joules the better the protection. My surge suppressor rates at 1,550 joules.

  Now add missing facts.  Your 1550 joule protector only uses 520 joules and never more than 1030. That assumes no protectors on telephone and cable; else joules would be lower.  So 500 or 1000 joules will absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules?  You made that claim.  Next paragraph will describe the missing science.

  Why does a protector have more joules.  So that a protector absorbs LESS energy.  A better protector absorbs LESS joules.   Hundreds of thousands of joules in a surge must be absorbed by the protector? You made that claim using wild speculation.  A protector that cannot connect hundreds of thousands of joules short to earth may even create a house fire.  That energy must be absorbed somewhere.

  Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life expectancy.  Joules do not define how a protector works for each surge. After every surge, the effective protector remains functional.   Earthing – not joules - determines how good a protector performs during each surge.

 We engineers even traced surge damage through a network of powered off computers BECAUSE that protector was adjacent to computers.   We learned using science – not from wild speculation or reatil salemen.  Ineffective protector simply earthed a surge destructively through computers and the network.  We repaired all computers by literally following each path to earth (created by a plug-in protector) and replacing every damaged semiconductor.  Damage to powered off computers BECAUSE a plug-in protector was located too close to those computers and too far from earth ground.  But again, one of us learned this decades ago by learning the science AND by doing; by ignoring wild speculation.

  Some companies offer big buck warranties to those who never bother to read the find print.  Those warranties are mythical – not honored.  For example, one APC warranty even said a protector from any other manufacturer in the house voided their warranty.  Did you read the long list of exemptions so that the warranty is never honored?  ‘Free market’ principles: products with the bigger hyped warranty fall more often. Recently, one car company said their product was better because their warranty was better than Toyotas.  Such myths work on those who know without first learning.   Only a retail store victim would believe a warranty defines quality.  Benchmarks in surge protection (ie Polyphaser) do not have big buck warranty BECAUSE it is the superior solution – not promoted by a mythical warranty.

  With electronics knowledge, one knows that protectors cannot be ‘tested’ by a button.  Furthermore, what does that indicator light report?  Protector was so grossly undersized as to operate in violation of MOV manufacturer specs.  Again the difference between an engineer who knows by first learning facts verses others who know only by feeling.  “Absolute Maximum Parameters” are bluntly clear about this.  If the protector fails as described, then the protector was grossly undersized.

  Notice what the light reports in these pictures.  All protector parts are removed.  The light still reports that protector good.  Did you learn what the light reports, or just *assume* it reports anything useful?  The light can only report a condition that must never happen.  The light cannot report any protector as good.  View the pictures:
   http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

  Ironically, if a protector is grossly undersized (500 joules trying to absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules), then the naïve will recommend it.  An effective protector means nobody knows a surge even existed.  The naïve will not recommend what is unknown.  Damage gets the naïve to recommend it – which is why protectors are so grossly undersized as to even trigger that light.   An effective protector means even direct lightning strikes are earthed with damage even to a protector.

   Replies to a post chock full of sound byte myths.  A reply takes paragraphs to explain reality.  But the naïve instead will believe sound bytes phrases.

  How does a protector fail?  Its voltage changes by 10%.  A change that cannot be detected by that light or by pressing a test button.  Obvious when one first learns from manufacturer datasheets.  What does that light really report?  That a protector was so grossly undersized – so ineffective – as to fail catastrophically. So grossly undersized as to violate *every* MOV manufacturer spec.  But again, the engineer who designed this stuff would know this.  Myth purveyors would not.

  It claims to be a surge protector.  Therefore the naïve automatically *assume* it provides surge protection.  Same logic (by word association and emotions) also proved Saddam had WMDs.  Confronted are so many outright lies and myths.   Mantra from retail salesmen.  And still never provided:  manufacturer specs that claim that protection.

  JJ 3000 could not provide those spec numbers because ineffective protectors never claim that protection.

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – where energy must be absorbed.  So they make a subjective claim – “surge protection” – in a sales brochure.  A sales brochure proves protection?  No.  It only protects from a surge that is typically not destructive.  But the naïve saw a sound byte - “surge protection” – and therefore *know* it must be effective.

  JJ 3000 – here is your challenge.  Reply logically and without emotion.  For example, post those manufacturer spec numbers that list protection.  You made the claim.  Therefore you can cite the science that defines your claim.  However, most who automatically believe scams rarely post logically; instead will attack the messenger.  Your choice.  Prove your case with manufacturer spec numbers, facts, and citations.  OR act like a technically naïve fool.  Explain why the NIST contradicts what you have posted:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector
> will work by diverting the surges to ground.  The best surge
> protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
> properly.

  Responsible companies (listed previously) provide protectors that can make that less than 10 foot connection to earth.  Protectors next to a computer that would absorb surges are scams – easily promoted to those who believe myths – who cannot even post manufacturer numeric specs.  MOVs (measured in joules) do not protect by absorbing surges.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - where surge energy must be harmlessly dissipiated.

[westom]

I usually change my surge blocks out about every 4 years. The over voltage devices in surge protector systems do have a limited useful life span. They can degrade and may not actually be able to shunt voltage spikes effectively.

 Gizmologist demonstrates brainwashing by myth purveyors.  Surge protectors are installed for the rare surge that can overwhelm protection inside every appliance.  Surges that occur typically once every seven years.  Protector must not be damaged by those surges.  But that would harm retails sales.

  When selling to the naive, retail myths promote constant surges.  The naïve then believe only the first thing told.  After all, we replace dimmer switches every week due to these surges?  Of course not. Those frequent surges do not exist.  The naïve never bothered to ask embarrassing questions.

  Effective surge protectors earth direct lightning strikes and remain functional.  An effective protector means the homeowner does not even know a lightning surge existed.  And that protector remains functional for decades – contradicting myths posted by Gizmologist.  But then we engineers who did this stuff first learned before knowing.

  Why does he know a protector has a limited life span?  It was a subjective claim from urban myth sources.   AV salesman will invent replacement numbers to maximize sales.  AV installers are told to believe it – to maximize profits.   Invent numbers rather than first view the life expectancy numbers in datasheets?  Gizmologist says a 2 centimeter part inside that protector will stop what three miles of sky could not.  Claims air is a conductor – not an insulator.  Recommends the $150 Monster Cable protector because it cost more than the same circuit selling in grocery stores for only $7.  Recommends a protector even though he now admits it does not protect from lightning – the primary reason for a surge protector.  Even invented three types of (mythical) electricity: capacitive, induced and resistive.

  What is his training?  He hangs speakers and runs wire.  Knows what the AV salesman tells him to say.  A $3 power strips with $0.10 parts selling for $25 or $150.   With profit margins that high, it must do something – according to Gizmologist.  45 years of installing speakers and he still does not know air is a best insulator.  Anyone with a high school science education would know that.  But he is promoting myths.  Science gets in the way of profits.  Yes, plug-in protectors do not even claim to provide protection.  But the profit margins are massive.

  View numbers on the box of any protector.  Let-through voltage is what?  330 volts?  How often do 330 volt surges exist?  If as often as Gizmologist says, then your 120 volt dimmer switch, dishwasher, and clock radio are destroyed daily by ‘330 plus’ volt surges.  A protector does nothing – remains inert – until voltage exceeds 330 volts.  Its right there on the box.  Gizmologist says 330 volt surges are routine – and that air is not an insulator.

  We install a ‘whole house’ protector for the rare surge that can damage appliances.  Smoke detectors, furnace, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs especially need protection.    What protects them?  The same protector that earths direct lightning strikes and does not fail.  The protector that costs $1 per appliance – not $75 or $150 as Gizmologist’s AV salesman needs you to believe.   $75 or $150 recommended by Gizmologist for a protector that does not even claim to provide protection.

  Responsible posters know why effective solutions have names such as Intermatic, Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, Keison, General Electric, Square D, Siemens, etc.   The most naïve among us recommend scams from APC, Belkin, Furman, Panamax, and Monster Cable – because that AV salesman knows where profits are highest.  Where is that manufacture spec that claims protection?  Gizmologist will not provide it.  Even that manufacturer does not claim his urban myth protection.

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  No low impedance connection to earth means no effective protection.  The solution routinely used anywhere that damage does not occur.