Power surges and lightning

[Gizmologist]

Westom you might want to read the posts here. No one cares about your repetitive claims  (ad nauseum).

Our real world experiences are quite sufficient for us accept the fact that the equipment we use does in fact work for the majority of situations.

As stated numerous times before, we are not talking about lightning striking the power drop outside a window of a home and splitting the wall open and sending a few million volts to ground through the house wiring. That does happen occasionally- no one is arguing that. Any disagreement with  that is in YOUR mind(?) and yours alone.

I do a bit more than hang speakers and run wires. My systems are installed in high dollar conference rooms of easily recognizable companies all over the country.

You on the other hand keep parroting "information" that is not backed up by the real world. If you had any valuable info that was accurate, what are you doing here trying to "educate" such a small group? You should be taking out large ads on TV, the web and newspapers debunking all the information of thousands of engineers, testing labs, end users, etc.

You cannot even quote me correctly.

Your diatribes have degenerated into nothing more than humorous fodder.

I will not respond to your silliness any further.

Go have another beer.

[westom]

No one cares about your repetitive claims  (ad nauseum).

If this was so wrong, you would simply walk away.  But technical reality it is threat to your profit margins.  AV guys make massive profits promoting mythical protectors.  That $3 power strip with some $0.10 part selling for $25 and $150 is quite profitable.  If they install only one 'whole house' protector - protect everything - and don't foolishly replace the protectors every two or four years ... you have an incoming loss.

  If you were honest, you would have posted those manufacturer numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from those surges.  But even the manufacturer will not claim the many myths you have promoted.  You even claim an insulator called air is conductive.  Anyone with basic electrical knowledge would know that.  But AV equipment is easily installed without such knowledge.

  So where is that manufacturer spec?  Why so many personal attacks and not one specification?  My point all along.  Monster Cable also sells what you are recommending because the myths are so easily believed AND the profits are so massive.  Monster Cable sells speaker wire with polarity and plug-in protectors because both myths can be sold to the naïve for a massive profit margin.  Your protector also sells in a grocery store for $7.  And it also claims the same protection in its numeric specs.

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  When surge protection is required, protectors are located as close to earth as possible.  Surges are absorbed harmlessly in earth.  One protector does all that for about $1 per protected appliance.  And that protector remains functional even after direct lightning strikes.  A Cutler-Hammer version – completely with the dedicated earthing connection - sells in Lowes for less than $50.  So Gizmologist’s constant response is to disparage me rather than provide even one manufacturer spec that claims protection.   With his education, he understands how to constantly insult.  Provide spec numbers to prove his point – he cannot do that.

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground … which is why every telco everywhere in the world does not use what Gizmologist has recommended.  Instead they need protection from about 100 surges during every thunderstorm – without damage.  So they spend less money for better protection – a properly earthed protector.

  How did Orange County Florida prevent surge damage?  They installed nothing recommended by Gizmologist or any other audio installer.  Instead they fixed what provides surge protection – earthing:
  http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – no matter how many times Gizmologist denies it, invents mythical surges, denies air is an insulator, or attacks me.

[Aegis]

I checked the Internet for whole house surge surpressors run about $150 - $200 US. 

Draining the power surge away before it enters the infrastructure is ideal, but it must be properly installed, and there's no guarantee that the lightning will strike where it's supposed to strike to prevent the surge.

There's an old Murphy's Law corallary which states:  A transistor protected by a fast-blowing fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first.

[westom]

I checked the Internet for whole house surge surpressors run about $150 - $200 US. 

And the Cutler-Hammer protector sells in Lowes for $50.  Others:
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
http://www.deltala.com/prod01.htm#LA302R

 'Whole hosue' protectors come from various sources are various prices.

  Does the surge enter through the roof?  Then that solution is a Ben Franklin lightning rod.  But the most common sources of surge damage on utility lines.  That wire highest on a telephone pole is a direct surge connection to your appliances.

Secondary protection is to upgrade household earthing and a 'whole house' protector.    Primary surge protection ‘system’ should also be inspected:
  http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

  What is the one component in every protection layer (lightning rod, secondary protection, primary protection)?  Earth connection.  Earthing is the protection in every solution.  A protector without earthing protects from surges that typically do not cause damage – and cost tens or 100 times more money.

  Don’t understand why you are discussing fuses.  Fuses don’t protect electronics.  Worse, to provide protection, a fuse would have to block a surge.  Nothing blocks destructive surges.  So why do you even mention a fuse.

  No effective protector operates like a fuse.  But that is how ineffective protectors get promoted to the naive.  A protector is only as effective as what it must divert a surge to.   A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[Gizmologist]

What amuses me about westom's ravings is that he must have been suckered into buying monster cable and has decided to rail against them continually.

The sad fact is the poor guy can't get past the idea of lightning as the sole source of surges when in actuality, spikes and surges are almost entirely locally generated either within the home by heavy appliances etc or from the  primary to the local pole transformer where the feeds are in common with numerous noise, spike and surge creating switching activities on the line etc.

This is the primary purpose of the small scale surge protection devices.

As I said earlier, he must believe that every single IT professional or media systems engineer is totally devoid of any degree of understanding on the concept of power conditioning.

I am still trying to see where anyone posting here especially me, ever said or even intimated that grounding was unnecessary as long as a surge suppressor was on the AC line.

Perhaps he should loosen the tin foil hat.  I think it has absorbed too many lightning hits and did NOT effectively shunted them to "earth ground".

[westom]

The sad fact is the poor guy can't get past the idea of lightning as the sole source of surges when in actuality, spikes and surges are almost entirely locally generated either within the home by heavy appliances etc

  More myths from a stereo installer.  Good.  Gizmologist makes an excellent sounding board.  He is excellent at posting classic myths.

1) If a heavy appliance creates surges, then the heavy appliance damages itself.

2) If it creates surges, then a protector should be on the surge source - not on the 100 other victims of that surge.

3) If heavy appliances (ie washing machine) create surges, then its GFCI is destroyed with each wash.  Do you replace your GFCI with every wash?

4) If those interior generates surges exist, then dimmer switches, smoke detectors, GFCIs, etc are replaced daily.  Obviously those surges (if existing) are too tiny to cause any damage.  But then Gizmologist constantly posts subjectively (without perspective) – as if one surge could end the world.

5) If appliances are creating surges, then one ‘whole house’ protector eliminates those surges.  Effective surge protection from lightning means other trivial and lesser surges are also made irrelevant.

  An AV installer recommends protectors due to no electrical knowledge.  But then stereo installed need not learn about simple electrical concepts such as wire impedance.  Gizmologist would not even know what that is – let alone understand why it is important.

  Lightning is not the only surge.  Earth a surge protector so that other surges are also made irrelevant.   Gizmologist conceded that his protectors do not protect from lightning.  Why spend massively more for his inferior solution?

  We earth one ‘whole house’ protector to make destructive surges irrelevant.  Of course, that protector is only as effective as its earth ground – including how short it connects to earth, no sharp bends, wire separated from other non-grounding wires, etc.   Simple electrical concepts for effective surge protection.

[Aegis]

Don’t understand why you are discussing fuses.

As the old cartoon character used to say, That's a joke, son.  It was a joke in reference to the fact that, sometimes, the components are destroyed while the systems in place to protect them remain undamaged.

[Gizmologist]

Aegis it's too bad westom didn't get the joke. It is beginning to sound like he recites the mantra "earth ground, earth ground, earth ground" as a meditative aid.

It is abundantly obvious he has no reading comprehension.

He must be a salesman for whole house systems. He obviously understand zip about surges even though he claims to have knowledge superior to everyone else in the industry.

Perhaps he could post a link to some dissertations he has conceived that are quoted in the engineering forums of IT professionals, power conditioning professionals, AV professionals, etc.

Rave on westom!

[westom]

It was a joke in reference to the fact that, sometimes, the components are destroyed while the systems in place to protect them remain undamaged.

Joke or not – many do believe fuses are surge protection.  A fuse will remain intact while a surge passes through to damage semiconductors.  That fuse did exactly what it is supposed to do.

  Joke or not - it is another opportunity to confront and expose a widely believed myth that fuses provide surge protection.  And that surge protectors do the same thing.

  Many assume a protector fails - just like a fuse - to provide surge protection.   A grossly undersized protector fails so that the naive will recommend that protector.  A surge too small to harm electronics will often destroy a scam protector - just like a blowing fuse.  Then the naive recommend replacing a protector every two years or other myths.

  A popular myth is, “My surge protectors sacrificed itself to save my computer.”  What?  It blew like a fuse?  Then it provided no surge protection.

[Gizmologist]

http://allteccorp.com/more_commercial_surge_protection.php

Westom you may want to read the opening page, especially the last paragraph.

NO ONE ever said that outlet- based surge protectors are the ONLY device that should be necessary. However not everyone can afford the whole house system or they do not have access to it as a RENTER or apartment dweller.

Its is about time to lay your rants to rest.

I am done with you.

Peace

[westom]

NO ONE ever said that outlet- based surge protectors are the ONLY device that should be necessary. However not everyone can afford the whole house system

If someone cannot afford a 'whole house' protector, then why did you recommend spending tens or 100 times more money only on plug-in protectors?  Why did you recommend protectors that do not even claim to provide that protection?

  In your first post, you recommended spending much more money (up to $150 for the Monster Cable example) for power strip protectors that only do what a $7 grocery store protector does.

Second, if you use an outlet strip for your computer hardware, be sure it is a high quality surge protected style.

.
Then you recommended a UPS to do what a UPS does not do.  Somehow brownouts are hardware destructive?  Of course not.  Somehow that UPS provides protection from destructive surges?  Of course not.

  Slowly, you are admitting what provides protection.  Your citation indicates you are finally grasping the point:
  http://allteccorp.com/more_commercial_surge_protection.php

Surge protection devices limit voltage in the electrical circuit by diverting these high-energy impulses to grounding systems …

A plug-in protector without a properly earthed ‘whole house’ system may even contribute to appliance surge damage.  May even earth that surge destructively through the adjacent appliance.  Only earthing a ‘whole house’ protector eliminates that classic appliance damage – a protector earthing a surge destructively through nearby appliances.

  A ‘whole house’ protector costs about $1 per protected appliance.  A plug-in protector (or the even less effective UPS) means tens or 100 times more money per appliance.  If money is a problem, then the ‘whole house’ protector is the only solution.

  You basically got it right in your third paragraph, first post. 

First, I suggest that you look at the telephone demarc on your home. … to verify the device is still functioning properly and that a good earth ground is firmly attached.

  Unfortunately, you did not understand why.  For example you did not understand why a ground wire must be so short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp bends, separated from non-grounding wires, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, every ‘whole house’ protector connected to the same earth ground, etc.  Had you not been so defiant, this would have been an educational discussion.  You had much to learn.

  Your latest citation is a concession of what is always required for protection – that connection to earth ground – something to absorb surge energy so that surges need not enter a building.

  A properly installed cable TV is already properly earthed before entering the building – no protector required.  The telephone demarc (NID box) already has a ‘whole house’ protector also connected to the same earth ground.   Missing in most homes is a ‘whole house’ protector on AC mains.  Essential for any surge protection is earthing that both meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical code (ie described above).

  How to make surge protection even better?  Upgrade the earthing.  Better protection means Ufer grounds or a buried loop completely around the building.  These provide two essential functions for effective protection:  better conductivity and equipotential.  More concepts only just introduced because too much new information was already posted.  A suggestion as to how much more is known and still not yet posted.

  That magic box protector is not protection – even though it is sold that way.  A protector is only a connecting device to protection.  However ‘whole house’ protection is not 100% effective.  That is the subjective conclusion.  Now let’s put numbers to that statement.  From the IEEE (Green Book)  Standard 142:
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or
> diverted to a path which will, if well designed and constructed,
> not result in damage.  Even this means is not positive,
> providing only 99.5-99.9% protection.  ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct
> strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
> 6000 years ...):

  Install plug-in protectors (at maybe $10 or $100 per appliance) for maybe another 0.2% improvement.  Earthing and ‘whole house’ protectors are that essential.  Do so much.  Subjective, the ‘whole house’ protector is not 100% protection.  But then a potentially destructive surge once every 6,000 years – that one protector is more than sufficient.

  Of course – that protector will only be as effective as its earth ground.  There is no way around that reality.  Surge energy must be dissipated where?

  Despite so many insults, an irrefutable objective was to inform a majority of lurkers how see through lies routinely promoted in retail stores; to have protection so that even lightning storms result in no electronics damage.  Fundamental to that solution are proper connections to earthing AND inspection of the primary surge protection system.  No acceptable reason to have surge damage even to surge protectors.  But that means surges must be dissipated harmlessly in earth; not inside a building.

Again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  If no earth ground (obscenely overpriced plug-in protectors), then no effective protection.

[Gizmologist]

As I said, rave on. You have not provided ONE published paper you as the penultimate expert have in your proffesional portfolio. You are saying nothing different from anyone else as far as the need to dissipate surges to ground. When all this started we were discussing the best solution for the homeowner sans installing the whole house system which according to the manufacturers if these systems does NOT provide 100 % protection. They ALL strongly urge the installation of outlet based systems with a UPS.

I suppose you would suggest (insist) that someone renting an apartment should purchase a whole system and install it in the distro system in the complex. Interesting way to get evicted.

We all understand about grounding. You do not understand the concept of how the majority surges occur and you evidently refuse to read any true expert information from the manufacturers, testing labs, installers etc.

As I said. make yourself a new tin foil hat and be sure it is well earthed with a 6 ft #4 copper cable and that the rod is at least 8 feet below grade.

I will be hoping for lightning.

Say good night Gracie.

 

[BC_Programmer]

I especially love this part:

1) If a heavy appliance creates surges, then the heavy appliance damages itself.

2) If it creates surges, then a protector should be on the surge source - not on the 100 other victims of that surge.

If the device creates surges, why don't you just unplug it, and run it from those surges.

last I checked we plug devices in because they can't generate power themselves. so the question here is how the device is ADDING to the AC current, rather then drawing from it.

Sure, stuff like washing machines can cause extra draw that often lowers the voltage to other devices on that circuit, but only under very specific circumstances will the device actually ADD power to the line.

those specific circumstances? I would imagine being immersed in water is one. Also one could probably hook up a giant generator to the insides of the machine. but really if your going to go looking for trouble you will find it.

(up to $150 for the Monster Cable example)

he already told you. there IS no monster cable example.

Somehow brownouts are hardware destructive?  Of course not. 

depends on the hardware. Take the typical, manufacturer made PC, with a excessively cheaply made power supply that sends POWER_GOOD without actually checking to see that the power is good for the motherboard. (this is far too common).

now imagine- there is a brownout on the line the PC is connected to- say it drops to 105 volts. Not too bad.

a typical power supply has a tolerance level- it can s maintain DC voltages at their proper levels when the power drops too low or goes to high momentarily. However, let's say there is a real brownout on the line- say, grandma just turned on the dryer.

the power dips to 105- and stays there. What SHOULD happen, is the power supply should revoke the POWER_GOOD signal, which puts the PC in a reboot loop.

But what often happens with cheap supplies is that they are simply made to route the Power Good signal from the +5 volt rail. Now, the problem here is that the POWER_GOOD signal as far as the motherboard is concerned, is fine for a variantion  from +2.4V through +6.0V. By the time the +5V rail gets that distorted, it's too late.

This could result in either permanent hardware damage, data corruption (as memory refresh cycle timings drop, the supplied power isn't enough during each Refresh, etc).


Now let's see here. What kind of power supply causes these problems to the PC? a Cheap one. Cheap. the very same kind of protection your professing in larger scale hardware yourself. So I think the real question is, if a 20$ power supply can't do what a 60$ one does- what makes you think that a 50$ whole house protector will do the job of a 100$ or 150$ one?

Like gizmologist said, your in some kind of blood feud with Monster Cable. I will agree that Monster Cable sells overpriced accessories. But it's also true, that in order to sell something the person buying needs to voluntarily pay. It's also true that other companies that DO sell higher quality products will charge more then their lower-quality competitors. This is usually because they don't use Korean children to build their products and actually hire professionals to do it. Not surprisingly this costs a little more. you profess that "whole house protection" is essential and yet you cheap out and suggest the cheapest one, likely made by children in some east asian country, who likely don't have the technical know-how nor the motive to give a *censored* about the quality of their work. All they want is their ration of gruel. Wether the device their creating helps prevent some middle-class families Dryer from being damaged really isn't on their list of priorities.

[Gizmologist]

here is a well written and concise paper from a true expert in the field. Funny how he does not disagree with anything said about surge suppression at all levels.


http://www.rbs2.com/pq.htm

[JJ 3000]

So 500 or 1000 joules will absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules?  You made that claim

No I didn't.

 

We engineers even traced surge damage through a network of powered off computers BECAUSE that protector was adjacent to computers.

So, none of those computers were actually connected to the suppressor? They were adjacent to it? In other words - they were next to that particular suppressor, not connected to it right? That's amazing! Sometimes electricity has a mind of it's own.

Y'all engineers know more about that stuff than I do.

 

We repaired all computers by literally following each path to earth (created by a plug-in protector) and replacing every damaged semiconductor

I take a bit of a different approach when it comes to computer repair. I examine each one and try to determine what steps need to taken to resolve the issue that each computer is having. Perhaps I should start following the path to the ground.

By the way, I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but  a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. I just wanted to educate you on this. I reiterate:  a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Get that through your head and stop claiming that the ground has nothing to do with electrical protection! The juice needs to flow into the ground. Get it?